Operational Control
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Operational Control
For those Commanders with some experience with CX operations, I have a question for you...
Under Section 2.4 of Ops Part A, it states that CX uses a PIC- assisted system for the purpose of operational control: The Commander /PIC has sole authority over any and all decisions regarding operational control. However, the Commander/PIC is assisted by others, such as IOC, DOM or other operational staff assigned the responsibility to carry out specific functions, duties or tasks, such as flight planning and in-flight support.
Furthermore 2.4.1 states Before Commencement of the flight The responsibility for an individual flight passes to IOC before departure
and Once the flight has commenced The Commander/PIC has the authority as to the operation and safety of the aircraft and all persons on board during his time on duty. All operational decisions should be co-ordinated with IOC.
Finally, Once the flight has commenced The aircraft Commander/PIC has the authority for operational control for any safety or legal issues from the moment the aircraft is ready to move for the purpose of taking-off, until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight and the engines are shutdown.
So here's the scenario: Whilst preparing for a ULH full flight, the ISM informs you that all the PTVs in F class are not working. Having consulted the ground engineers, they advise you that in order to fix the system, it will take about an hour delay past ETD. You inform IOC/ENG via the Company frequency and are told to close the doors and depart.
Would there be serious consequences and repercussions if you decided to use your authority and override their decision by getting the engineers to do their job?
There's times when being a Commander is "the ultimate authority" and it seems to me there's other times of "do as we say, not as we publish".
Just wanted to get your opinion(s).
Under Section 2.4 of Ops Part A, it states that CX uses a PIC- assisted system for the purpose of operational control: The Commander /PIC has sole authority over any and all decisions regarding operational control. However, the Commander/PIC is assisted by others, such as IOC, DOM or other operational staff assigned the responsibility to carry out specific functions, duties or tasks, such as flight planning and in-flight support.
Furthermore 2.4.1 states Before Commencement of the flight The responsibility for an individual flight passes to IOC before departure
and Once the flight has commenced The Commander/PIC has the authority as to the operation and safety of the aircraft and all persons on board during his time on duty. All operational decisions should be co-ordinated with IOC.
Finally, Once the flight has commenced The aircraft Commander/PIC has the authority for operational control for any safety or legal issues from the moment the aircraft is ready to move for the purpose of taking-off, until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight and the engines are shutdown.
So here's the scenario: Whilst preparing for a ULH full flight, the ISM informs you that all the PTVs in F class are not working. Having consulted the ground engineers, they advise you that in order to fix the system, it will take about an hour delay past ETD. You inform IOC/ENG via the Company frequency and are told to close the doors and depart.
Would there be serious consequences and repercussions if you decided to use your authority and override their decision by getting the engineers to do their job?
There's times when being a Commander is "the ultimate authority" and it seems to me there's other times of "do as we say, not as we publish".
Just wanted to get your opinion(s).
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Between Ourselves
Embarrassing to the Company so keep it under wraps ....
Call it Non-Essential as in quote
" The left wing fairing described as non- essential by the airline, was found in a field near the airport" (Sunday Morning Post)
Can these PR people be candid? Can the aircraft be dispatched with a wing fairing missing ??
Why not say it did not compromise the safe operation of the aircraft or is that not true either??
Loss of an engine ?? Strictly speaking "Non- essential" as the 777 can fly with one engine"
And if it falls on me or my property I ( or my estate) will be relieved to know that it was a non-essential aircraft item.
Those magnificent spin men ( and women ) & their flying machines !!!
Call it Non-Essential as in quote
" The left wing fairing described as non- essential by the airline, was found in a field near the airport" (Sunday Morning Post)
Can these PR people be candid? Can the aircraft be dispatched with a wing fairing missing ??
Why not say it did not compromise the safe operation of the aircraft or is that not true either??
Loss of an engine ?? Strictly speaking "Non- essential" as the 777 can fly with one engine"
And if it falls on me or my property I ( or my estate) will be relieved to know that it was a non-essential aircraft item.
Those magnificent spin men ( and women ) & their flying machines !!!
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Hellenic is really asking for opinion on the Commander's authority & not, really, wishing to focus on CX laundry. Most of us would return to ramp & get the problem fixed. Ground staff are often blinded by the 'On Time Performance' stats. All depts do not want to take the full responsibility for a delay. Command Authority on the ground is a shared responsibilty. Good team skills & recognition of CRM will produce good results. A bit like the old maritime rules, once the ship is underway, the Commander has sole responsibility. This is clear in our industry too. A good command decision made by the Captain should be applauded by the support staff once the aircraft is underway. i.e., push back complete, tug disconnected. He, the Captain, after all, is not just a pilot but a Senior Representative of the Company with a stack of related experience. He will be expected to make an operational and carefully judged commercial decision. Thats why we get all this money...eh ?
Would there be serious consequences and repercussions if you decided to use your authority and override their decision by getting the engineers to do their job?
I would regard PTV problems as a commercial issue, not something that affects the safe operation of the aircraft. If IOC are happy to accept the commercial repercussions (eg. compensation, grumpy pax, etc) of operating a ULH flight without PTVs in F class, then so be it. The Commander could always override IOC, but he or she had better be prepared to justify that decision. The Commander knows what's going on at the aircraft level, but IOC have the bigger picture with respect to the consequences of delaying the flight, eg. aircraft rotations, passenger connections, etc.
Last edited by BuzzBox; 29th Jul 2013 at 02:05.
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So here's the scenario: Whilst preparing for a ULH full flight, the ISM informs you that all the PTVs in F class are not working. Having consulted the ground engineers, they advise you that in order to fix the system, it will take about an hour delay past ETD. You inform IOC/ENG via the Company frequency and are told to close the doors and depart.
I always try to pass the buck and take some of the weight off of my shoulders when making decisions, if at all possible. As a Captain, in most airlines that I have worked in, you are already responsible for more than enough stuff that you can't control. So why take on more responsibility unnecessarily?
So, I would put the snag in the book. Then it is up to engineering to clear the writeup. If they MEL the system, then so be it. If they fix it, again, so be it. You've covered your rear and safety has not been compromised. You've also avoided making a decision you did not need to make.
And don't feel bad about the engineer, I can guarantee you he will be doing the same when he contacts his supervisor. And he will most likely do the same and contact his boss. It will travel up the chain, until it gets to somebody who is paid to make those decisions. Just as it should.
You don't have the complete picture in this case, why would you stick your neck out and make a decision that could impact down route schedules and maybe cause cancellations? You don't know, maybe they have an IFE specialist contractor at your ULH destination and this aircraft has been rostered specifically for that port - for that reason.
Just my 2c
If there is a possibility of you not liking the answer you may be given, then don't ask the question.
Use your knowledge and discretion to get the job done to your best liking.
Present a 'fait a complis' once the rectification is underway.
I've only ever had support from the 3rd floor when I have taken this route.
Use your knowledge and discretion to get the job done to your best liking.
Present a 'fait a complis' once the rectification is underway.
I've only ever had support from the 3rd floor when I have taken this route.
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I agree with Max, Sqwak and Buzz, quite a lot actually. If you do this:
then that is asking for trouble. Better to make your own "D".
Also, I was told that
pertains to the start of the take off roll, not the push. I realise it probably works in the company's favour, but it does make sense that IOC can order you to return to stand (whilst taxiing) if they wish to cancel the flight, for example.
inform IOC/ENG via the Company frequency and are told to close the doors and depart.
Also, I was told that
from the moment the aircraft is ready to move for the purpose of taking-off
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Honestly you have to go. The inconvenience to pax, especially those flying on biz of being late outweighs the inconvenience of missing a movie. Let the airline compensate the whiners... The main objective of the PIC is to get the pax safely to their destination (and on time too if that falls within safe ops.) in the example given, I would ask ground staff to run to page one and pick up tons of books in various languages and give them to the F class folks. Fast and efficient. Think out of the box folks!
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If IOC say close doors and go, I go, as Dan said it's their train set, bring a book FFS.
Safety relate issues are different and I've never had IOC be unsupportive when it comes to safety.
It's the tail wagging the dog when ISD starts telling IOC what to do.
Diversions are another matter, the crew and I decide the best course of action and I then tell IOC to pick one, if its a choice of one bad luck, they're down there we're up here.
Or think of it this way on ground you can blame IOC, inflight is a little more difficult.
Safety relate issues are different and I've never had IOC be unsupportive when it comes to safety.
It's the tail wagging the dog when ISD starts telling IOC what to do.
Diversions are another matter, the crew and I decide the best course of action and I then tell IOC to pick one, if its a choice of one bad luck, they're down there we're up here.
Or think of it this way on ground you can blame IOC, inflight is a little more difficult.
Last edited by SMOC; 29th Jul 2013 at 01:51.
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Couldn't agree more with SMOC and Dan Buster.
Choose a different scenario.....you get airborne and get an ACARS from IOC that says return to Hong Kong straight away. What are you going to do?
Of course, from previous posts.....some would press on?!?!? Really?
Choose a different scenario.....you get airborne and get an ACARS from IOC that says return to Hong Kong straight away. What are you going to do?
Of course, from previous posts.....some would press on?!?!? Really?
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Remember the "no good deeds go unpunish".
If it is not safety, imminent danger situation, follow IOC's instructions. Saves you a lot of explanations, and career advancement opportunities down the road.
An extreme (unlikely) scenario: half way across the pacific, ordered by IOC to turn around to fix the IFE in first class (broke down mid-flight). Would you follow this instruction? I would - all knowing it would cost the company money and piss off the 300+ pax and their missed connections / meetings. Sorry, I am being selfish by looking after my own career first.
For commercial situations, let IOC make the call. You are here to make the call in emergency, safety-relation situations.
If it is not safety, imminent danger situation, follow IOC's instructions. Saves you a lot of explanations, and career advancement opportunities down the road.
An extreme (unlikely) scenario: half way across the pacific, ordered by IOC to turn around to fix the IFE in first class (broke down mid-flight). Would you follow this instruction? I would - all knowing it would cost the company money and piss off the 300+ pax and their missed connections / meetings. Sorry, I am being selfish by looking after my own career first.
For commercial situations, let IOC make the call. You are here to make the call in emergency, safety-relation situations.
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EM:
For commercial situations, let IOC make the call. You are here to make the call in emergency, safety-relation situations.
I have a concern that too many Commanders are constantly asking IOC what to do, sometimes for the most trivial things. IMHO, I believe that is a mistake, that in the short term eats away at the authority of the Commander; and in the longer term, could lead to unsafe decisions being made because the Commander has grown up on a diet of "following IOC's orders".
Like all leadership positions, there is a fine line and it takes time to find it, and be comfortable with it.
Officially, the Captain's responsibilities include '...passenger comfort, schedule keeping..." as well, so if you wish to return to the stand to get something fixed, do it. If you want to continue, do it.
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Hellenic, trust you are enjoying the development of the discussion which is, I suspect, what you sought.
Treboryelk; in the scenario you suggest, I don't think anyone would "press on". Big difference between being asked to return to stand while taxying & return to Base while airborn.
China; excellent post. Nice & succinct.
Treboryelk; in the scenario you suggest, I don't think anyone would "press on". Big difference between being asked to return to stand while taxying & return to Base while airborn.
China; excellent post. Nice & succinct.
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Gents,
Many thanks for your thoughts/opinions - I've taken alot out of this discussion and your sound advise has been noted for me to "hang my hat on".
I look forward to extending a handshake to you all either whilst passing by in Despatch or as a passenger on one your flights during my commutes/travels.
Many thanks for your thoughts/opinions - I've taken alot out of this discussion and your sound advise has been noted for me to "hang my hat on".
I look forward to extending a handshake to you all either whilst passing by in Despatch or as a passenger on one your flights during my commutes/travels.
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Well, being in the back and facing a sea of red faces and fielding the slings and arrows ["I'm taking taking SQ next time etc"] from the pax about the inop IFE is really character building.
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New software updates coming....
No need to worry anymore about this guys.
Latest EICAS/ECAM software update has as follows as for ALL non normal procedures, both emergency or otherwise
CONT IOC FOR FURTHER GUIDANCE........... Contact
LIASE with ISM and request clarification
From ISD...................................................Contac t
Thrust levers .............................................Retard
ENG master switch..................................See line 1
LAND ASAP......................................Refer to Line 4
Latest EICAS/ECAM software update has as follows as for ALL non normal procedures, both emergency or otherwise
CONT IOC FOR FURTHER GUIDANCE........... Contact
LIASE with ISM and request clarification
From ISD...................................................Contac t
Thrust levers .............................................Retard
ENG master switch..................................See line 1
LAND ASAP......................................Refer to Line 4
Last edited by monster330; 6th Aug 2013 at 15:17.
