Should edward snowden be allowed to travel to the uk ???
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For those who think Snowden is a patriot. The next time you are at a party, sipping your Chardonnay, and find yourself saying that the Police or the government needs better intelligence to solve whatever problem is the topic of the day, stop yourself because you have just defeated your own argument.
It is a very different matter if the US government is reading the emails or listening to the phone calls without the appropriate authority.
Exactly what intelligence were they after by hacking into HKG and China??
Frankly the US has been begging for an event like 9-11. Any action can now be justified under the excuse of "National Security" Re the "Patriot Act". Brainwash and control people through fear..it's a proven formula for centuries.
parabellum..I wouldn't accept anything else from you considering you come from a nanny state where even HOHOHO is banned during Xmas. What exactly do you know about the real world beyond you're big island??
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White..your second segment needs grammatical attention sport..and yes, vitiate is indeed a verb..though as a craft smith of the Anglo saxon language, isn't it nice to play around with the nerbs and vouns a wee bit? I am not suggesting that GCHQ or NSA type agencies be disbanded but rather, they re adjust their compasses a little better and spook the areas that need their attention. Trade sniffing and snooping in EU departments, raising the hackles of Germany, France and Holland quite frankly goes beyond their remit. The yanks should be ashamed of themselves...and yes..it took a kid to let the rest of us know....
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Next time you walk past a 747 and admire an iconic American design, it is worth remembering the detailed knowledge of how to put a podded engine on a swept wing came out of Nazi Germany. You will note the British did not get this technology and they went down the avenue of putting engines in the wing root and perhaps that decision cost them their aviation industry, whilst the American industry florished. Look also at the titanium alloy landing gear on the 747, pure Russian. Apparently the technology was attained from the Russians at the height of the Cold War by a "Trade Delegation" to Paris, where Boeing "swapped" the podded wing technology for the titanium knowledge.
I realise there is now a grave danger of derailing this thread into yet another Airbus v Boeing or my w!llie is longer than yours thread, however the only point I make is that whilst it is an imperative to develop technology ( and the 'umericans are leaders here), you also have to protect it. So as part of protecting that technology the US will be "monitoring" other countries to find out how much they know and how they attain this information and where necessary block or mislead the other countries. How effective do you think such "monitoring" would be in your open and transparent world?
I suspect we have walked very different paths in this world, however the path I walked has convinced me that I enjoy my life because to quote back "A few good men", someone stood on all wall. For most of my life, men and women way braver than me have sat silently under the ocean, with the sole mission to destroy anyone who launched a nuclear strike against my country. I imagine you will now choke on your Pino Gris, but I believe these Subs prevent nuclear armagedeon. Their effectiveness relies on stealth and anyone, but anyone, who remotely compromises in any way shape or form the capabilities of the nuclear deterrent is a traitor. Whistleblower or not, we live in a world where secrets are necessary and need to be protected. What is secret cannot be determined by any individual who processes the secret, otherwise the system falls apart. If protecting those secrets requires someone to monitor my emails or phone calls, then so be it.
However, the day your government uses a transcript of a phonecall or email attained illegally to persecute someone for political purposes, that is the day I will agree Snowden is not a traitor. Now are you suggesting Obama is doing that? Thought not.
I realise there is now a grave danger of derailing this thread into yet another Airbus v Boeing or my w!llie is longer than yours thread, however the only point I make is that whilst it is an imperative to develop technology ( and the 'umericans are leaders here), you also have to protect it. So as part of protecting that technology the US will be "monitoring" other countries to find out how much they know and how they attain this information and where necessary block or mislead the other countries. How effective do you think such "monitoring" would be in your open and transparent world?
I suspect we have walked very different paths in this world, however the path I walked has convinced me that I enjoy my life because to quote back "A few good men", someone stood on all wall. For most of my life, men and women way braver than me have sat silently under the ocean, with the sole mission to destroy anyone who launched a nuclear strike against my country. I imagine you will now choke on your Pino Gris, but I believe these Subs prevent nuclear armagedeon. Their effectiveness relies on stealth and anyone, but anyone, who remotely compromises in any way shape or form the capabilities of the nuclear deterrent is a traitor. Whistleblower or not, we live in a world where secrets are necessary and need to be protected. What is secret cannot be determined by any individual who processes the secret, otherwise the system falls apart. If protecting those secrets requires someone to monitor my emails or phone calls, then so be it.
However, the day your government uses a transcript of a phonecall or email attained illegally to persecute someone for political purposes, that is the day I will agree Snowden is not a traitor. Now are you suggesting Obama is doing that? Thought not.
Last edited by Liam Gallagher; 3rd Jul 2013 at 07:47.
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The defending freedoms crowd should read the article below, seems like the NSA and the spooks in Cheltenham should be watching the FBI a bit more closely!
» NYT: FBI Hatches Terror Plots Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/op...anted=all&_r=0
» NYT: FBI Hatches Terror Plots Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/op...anted=all&_r=0
Last edited by Threethirty; 3rd Jul 2013 at 08:51.
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What pure utter f&*kng bollocks Liam!!!!
This is about a government claiming a need for these illegal domestic and international secret surveillance programs to thwart terrorist attacks....and you're off on a tangent about safeguarding American technology and nuclear subs. Unless that is of course you actually condone a nation spying on other nations not considered hostile for its own benefits. If so I would be very careful with what you wish for because with China flexing its muscles events can easily spiral out of control....subs or no subs!!!!
This is about a government claiming a need for these illegal domestic and international secret surveillance programs to thwart terrorist attacks....and you're off on a tangent about safeguarding American technology and nuclear subs. Unless that is of course you actually condone a nation spying on other nations not considered hostile for its own benefits. If so I would be very careful with what you wish for because with China flexing its muscles events can easily spiral out of control....subs or no subs!!!!
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Like I said, we have clearly walked different paths.
Explain to me how intelligence gathering is segregated between industrial espionage, military espionage and anti-terrorism and crime-fighting . Does intelligence come with an ID tag?
Fifty years ago Snowden would have worn a tool-belt. It seems he was a comms specialist and he may or may not have seen or worked on all sorts of things that would be of interest to all sorts of people. He has gone public as a "whistleblower" on what are really unremarkable but "sexy" pieces of classified information. How remarkable is the revelation the US got a Court Order to access the phone records from Service Providers? How remarkable is the revelation the US spies on Germany? What do think the US Military Attache and his staff in Germany do, walk around with their eyes shut? Equally, what do you think all the foreign Miliitary Attaches in the US do?
Snowden has allowed himself to fall into the hands of foreign powers not necessarily friendly to the US. Should it be that Snowden had worked with or had access to the means and methods the US communicates with its Subs and other sensitive assets, there will be big concerns in the Pentagon and Washington.
Explain to me how intelligence gathering is segregated between industrial espionage, military espionage and anti-terrorism and crime-fighting . Does intelligence come with an ID tag?
Fifty years ago Snowden would have worn a tool-belt. It seems he was a comms specialist and he may or may not have seen or worked on all sorts of things that would be of interest to all sorts of people. He has gone public as a "whistleblower" on what are really unremarkable but "sexy" pieces of classified information. How remarkable is the revelation the US got a Court Order to access the phone records from Service Providers? How remarkable is the revelation the US spies on Germany? What do think the US Military Attache and his staff in Germany do, walk around with their eyes shut? Equally, what do you think all the foreign Miliitary Attaches in the US do?
Snowden has allowed himself to fall into the hands of foreign powers not necessarily friendly to the US. Should it be that Snowden had worked with or had access to the means and methods the US communicates with its Subs and other sensitive assets, there will be big concerns in the Pentagon and Washington.
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Liam, well rounded, well written. For everyone else.
Twenty years ago I was told never say anything you did not want recorded, never write anything that you did not want others to see. And this was in the days before everyday use of internet and social media.
Of course agencies monitor electronic data. Since WW2 this has been at the forefront, and it was only recently that those employed at Bletchley were even allowed to speak about it.
As regards whether a whistleblower or traitor. Ask yourself, how many people from the winning side have been to the ICC? Only the defeated are criminals.
Twenty years ago I was told never say anything you did not want recorded, never write anything that you did not want others to see. And this was in the days before everyday use of internet and social media.
Of course agencies monitor electronic data. Since WW2 this has been at the forefront, and it was only recently that those employed at Bletchley were even allowed to speak about it.
As regards whether a whistleblower or traitor. Ask yourself, how many people from the winning side have been to the ICC? Only the defeated are criminals.
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Snoop away as much as you like.
Pucka, Quote "Trade sniffing and snooping in EU departments, raising the hackles of Germany, France and Holland quite frankly goes beyond their remit."
I note that your location is HKG, mine is the U.K. As an unwilling, unconsulted and conscripted member of the EU, I am more than happy for someone, anyone, to snoop on EU departments. As far as raising the hackles of Germany and France - GOOD!!! The EU is their club and I don't want to be a member. I will reserve judgement on Holland.
I wonder how Beijing would treat one of their whistle blowers. Why don't you give it a try?
I note that your location is HKG, mine is the U.K. As an unwilling, unconsulted and conscripted member of the EU, I am more than happy for someone, anyone, to snoop on EU departments. As far as raising the hackles of Germany and France - GOOD!!! The EU is their club and I don't want to be a member. I will reserve judgement on Holland.
I wonder how Beijing would treat one of their whistle blowers. Why don't you give it a try?
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FERtd..and other people of the Orwellian farm..making a stand for basic human rights, the right to be heard, the right to protest, the right of privacy, the right of democratic basic needs..they all started at a political starting grid. To restore some of those rights, that grid occasionally has to be relocated and reviewed. Snowden has done just that. The levels and areas where snooping is presently acceptable needs definite review. Spooking around my metaphoric garbage bags of home does little to defuse the next 9/11...otherwise, what is the point of a privacy data ordinance? what next..open season on our bank accounts, our bedrooms, our minds? I don't depose the concepts of intelligence gathering, I am just advocating that the boundaries of that gathering need better definition and less public intrusion. In the UK, there are mechanisms that the various agencies can use if they suspect potential terrorist threats. These gates are the imperatives that we the public, must have to preserve our democratic foundations and the dwindling remnants of individual privacy.
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Twenty One Individuals;
Liam Gallagher;
What a load of rubbish you have managed to dish up on these boards. You condemn Snowden simply because he had the temerity to speak the truth about a system he found obnoxious. Let's take a look at the 21 USA military personnel that follow. How do you judge them because they too found the system obnoxious ??. Obnoxious to such a point that they also did something about it.
Richard Corden; William Cowart; Lowell Skinner; Larance Sullivan;
Scott Rush; Otho Bell; William White; Harold Webb; Clarance Adams;
Arlie Pate; Howard Adams; Rufus Doullas; Lewis Griggs; Morris Wills;
Richard Tenneson; John Dunn; Andrew Fortune; James Veneris;
Albert Belhomme; Aaron wilson; Samuel Hawkins.
A little less attention to the effect of the stupid military mind might help you and your like thinkers get a grasp of the big pictire. ( note the word might )
O.P.
PS. The latest strong arm re the Bolivian president's aircraft must have you thinking.!!!!!
What a load of rubbish you have managed to dish up on these boards. You condemn Snowden simply because he had the temerity to speak the truth about a system he found obnoxious. Let's take a look at the 21 USA military personnel that follow. How do you judge them because they too found the system obnoxious ??. Obnoxious to such a point that they also did something about it.
Richard Corden; William Cowart; Lowell Skinner; Larance Sullivan;
Scott Rush; Otho Bell; William White; Harold Webb; Clarance Adams;
Arlie Pate; Howard Adams; Rufus Doullas; Lewis Griggs; Morris Wills;
Richard Tenneson; John Dunn; Andrew Fortune; James Veneris;
Albert Belhomme; Aaron wilson; Samuel Hawkins.
A little less attention to the effect of the stupid military mind might help you and your like thinkers get a grasp of the big pictire. ( note the word might )
O.P.
PS. The latest strong arm re the Bolivian president's aircraft must have you thinking.!!!!!
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Pucks
I was in the US just after the story broken and have just returned to the US (hooray).
The Snowden story is not that big over here. The way the story is being portrayed is that the US Government, whilst being secretive, has used all the correct the procedures. All he initially leaked was that the US Government had gained access to Verizon's phone records and all they could see was what phone number or email account had been contacted. The contents of the phonecalls and emails remained private. Civil Libertarians initally jumped on this and tried to portray it as an Orwellian plot.
In response, the US Government released evidence that the phone records were obtained in strict accordance with US Law and for reasons I believe are wholly justified, the granting of this access remained secret. Snowden's "whistle-blowing" changed that and they have been forced to disclose in detail how a part of their Intelligence Operations work.
Whilst the US may be divided on many issues it would seem that the overwhelming bulk of Polticians and Media Outlets have supported Obama and are now condemning Snowden without restraint. Snowden, now desperate to save his own skin is divulging information that can only be described as "salacious" and "embarrassing", as opposed to a drive for civil liberties.
One question Snowden needs to be asked, if he was that concerned about his Government's actions, why did he not report it to the relevant authorities in the US or those Congressmen who oppose Obama? Could it be that he did report it and was told it was a non-issue and releasing he would not get the fame and fortune he seeks, he has undertaken this charade?
The Snowden story is not that big over here. The way the story is being portrayed is that the US Government, whilst being secretive, has used all the correct the procedures. All he initially leaked was that the US Government had gained access to Verizon's phone records and all they could see was what phone number or email account had been contacted. The contents of the phonecalls and emails remained private. Civil Libertarians initally jumped on this and tried to portray it as an Orwellian plot.
In response, the US Government released evidence that the phone records were obtained in strict accordance with US Law and for reasons I believe are wholly justified, the granting of this access remained secret. Snowden's "whistle-blowing" changed that and they have been forced to disclose in detail how a part of their Intelligence Operations work.
Whilst the US may be divided on many issues it would seem that the overwhelming bulk of Polticians and Media Outlets have supported Obama and are now condemning Snowden without restraint. Snowden, now desperate to save his own skin is divulging information that can only be described as "salacious" and "embarrassing", as opposed to a drive for civil liberties.
One question Snowden needs to be asked, if he was that concerned about his Government's actions, why did he not report it to the relevant authorities in the US or those Congressmen who oppose Obama? Could it be that he did report it and was told it was a non-issue and releasing he would not get the fame and fortune he seeks, he has undertaken this charade?
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and for the benefit of Steve the Pirate, I can't find anyone who agrees that
I don't depose the concepts of intelligence gathering
STP
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Hypocrisy?
Pucka, you state :-"FERtd..and other people of the Orwellian farm..making a stand for basic human rights, the right to be heard, the right to protest, the right of privacy, the right of democratic basic needs..
Where are my democratic needs?
When did I have the choice of joining the EU?
When was I consulted about the EU constituion (let's call it a treaty instead)?
Where is the referendum that I was promised?
That is why I am more than happy that someone is looking over the shoulders of, cheating, deceiving and unelected European Commissioners.
There are millions of people throughout the world who are denied basic human rights - I don't see Snowden fighting their cause. Are you?
Are you, perhaps, a hypocrite trying to be a fashionable leftie?
Where are my democratic needs?
When did I have the choice of joining the EU?
When was I consulted about the EU constituion (let's call it a treaty instead)?
Where is the referendum that I was promised?
That is why I am more than happy that someone is looking over the shoulders of, cheating, deceiving and unelected European Commissioners.
There are millions of people throughout the world who are denied basic human rights - I don't see Snowden fighting their cause. Are you?
Are you, perhaps, a hypocrite trying to be a fashionable leftie?
Last edited by FERetd; 4th Jul 2013 at 09:57.
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parabellum..I wouldn't accept anything else from you considering you come
from a nanny state where even HOHOHO is banned during Xmas. What exactly do you know about the real world beyond you're big island??
WTF are you talking about?
Thread Starter
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He could do worse;
BlankBox;
Pretty face emanating lots of character. He most certainly could do worse. Kim Philby described the Russian lady he married as a " marvellous woman and the centrepiece of his life " Thus it could be that Snowden would be smart to follow this offer up and stay in Russia. The Russians might even print a postage stamp with his face on it just as they did for Kim Philby.
O.P.
Pretty face emanating lots of character. He most certainly could do worse. Kim Philby described the Russian lady he married as a " marvellous woman and the centrepiece of his life " Thus it could be that Snowden would be smart to follow this offer up and stay in Russia. The Russians might even print a postage stamp with his face on it just as they did for Kim Philby.
O.P.
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Ocean Person- your post #73
You list some 21 individuals that I imagine you view as heroes. You laud them for speaking the truth. What "truth" has Snowden uttered? His centre piece "truth" was the US Government used legal and proper means to access the phone records of its citizens. To be effective this means of gathering intelligence had to remain secret. He decided he knew better than elected Officials and the views of one individual rode rough-shode over the interests of the many. Can you be sure either his "crusade" or the next hero's crusade is not really motivated by the lust for "15 minute of fame" and a book deal?
You completely ignore the 100,000s of others who take their duties under whatever code or version of The Official Secrets Act they subscribe to, more seriously, than your famed 21, I am sure many have seen or been ask to undertake tasks they considered improper, but chose to deal with these conflicts by proper means without compromising the national interest. They put their egos behind their principles.
You asked if the Puervian President's Plane made me think? It just made me think to use someone's airspace is not a right, it's a privilege and permission must be sought (it's called Diplomatic Clearance). The permission will come with conditions and I am sure one of them is you cannot harbour a known fugitive. I am sure you would not approve of your country allowing another country to use your airspace for something you dissapproved of, like say, rendition?
Finally, you are entitled to your heroes as I am to mine. I found it quite poignant in a week a lowly signals technician has grabbed the headlines, another lowly signals technician, Len Owen, had his obituary published. 70 years ago Snowden may have fulfilled a similar role. I wonder how history would of played out if men like Len Owen had "blown the whistle" when they saw something they deemed inappropriate. The good news for us is that guys like Len Owen just did their duty and for that reason I do not have to write the following in German.
"Snowden is not fit to sniff the p!ss off Len Owen's boots"
Or is that too mililtary-minded for you ;-)
You completely ignore the 100,000s of others who take their duties under whatever code or version of The Official Secrets Act they subscribe to, more seriously, than your famed 21, I am sure many have seen or been ask to undertake tasks they considered improper, but chose to deal with these conflicts by proper means without compromising the national interest. They put their egos behind their principles.
You asked if the Puervian President's Plane made me think? It just made me think to use someone's airspace is not a right, it's a privilege and permission must be sought (it's called Diplomatic Clearance). The permission will come with conditions and I am sure one of them is you cannot harbour a known fugitive. I am sure you would not approve of your country allowing another country to use your airspace for something you dissapproved of, like say, rendition?
Finally, you are entitled to your heroes as I am to mine. I found it quite poignant in a week a lowly signals technician has grabbed the headlines, another lowly signals technician, Len Owen, had his obituary published. 70 years ago Snowden may have fulfilled a similar role. I wonder how history would of played out if men like Len Owen had "blown the whistle" when they saw something they deemed inappropriate. The good news for us is that guys like Len Owen just did their duty and for that reason I do not have to write the following in German.
"Snowden is not fit to sniff the p!ss off Len Owen's boots"
Or is that too mililtary-minded for you ;-)
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Burnable gomi
The comparison you draw between the US and countries like Saudi and China is not appropriate.
US Laws are made by a majority vote by people elected by "the people". In the US the laws also have to comply with the Constitution and citizen's have redress to the Judicary. Ultimately, the citizens have the right to protest. So in the US laws are made with various checks and balances. In China and Saudi there are no such checks and balances.
All countries have secrets and apparatuses to protect those secrets. Snowden and his ilk believe that it is down to each of those individuals in the security apparatus to decide what is secret and what is really public information. All the check and balances are secondary to their views.
Countries spy on each other..... Gosh......A country's infrastructure, including its Internet, is of military interest to other countries..... Gosh. It's been going on for centuries as have turncoats and traitors.
US Laws are made by a majority vote by people elected by "the people". In the US the laws also have to comply with the Constitution and citizen's have redress to the Judicary. Ultimately, the citizens have the right to protest. So in the US laws are made with various checks and balances. In China and Saudi there are no such checks and balances.
All countries have secrets and apparatuses to protect those secrets. Snowden and his ilk believe that it is down to each of those individuals in the security apparatus to decide what is secret and what is really public information. All the check and balances are secondary to their views.
Countries spy on each other..... Gosh......A country's infrastructure, including its Internet, is of military interest to other countries..... Gosh. It's been going on for centuries as have turncoats and traitors.