CX Aircraft Orders
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If they start DESO again on full expat package have they not opened a can of worms by hiring expat "cadets" on a short course in ADL. How can they explain that as far as the racial discrimination goes? Contracts before 09 are safe but to hire new guys as DESO would be very hard if it is not also offered to everyone. If they had continued to hire guys with experience as there were none from Hong Kong on expat packages I expect they could continue to do that but surely now they class someone with an ATPL and 1500hrs as a cadet it is a non starter. Hopefully they are still finding it incredibly hard to find people and the package will be raised once more for everyone on local terms. The closer if not identical to expat terms the better for everyone.
Last edited by SloppyJoe; 17th Mar 2011 at 08:52.
SloppyJoe
As I have repeatedly said on other threads, the RDO doesn’t apply to different COS if it is based on recruitment stream. Cadets aren’t employed based on their race. Even under the old scheme they weren’t employed based on their race but on their right to live and work in Hong Kong. As race wasn’t a determining factor in employment the RDO doesn’t apply.
As I have repeatedly said on other threads, the RDO doesn’t apply to different COS if it is based on recruitment stream. Cadets aren’t employed based on their race. Even under the old scheme they weren’t employed based on their race but on their right to live and work in Hong Kong. As race wasn’t a determining factor in employment the RDO doesn’t apply.
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So I assume all the "cadets" that have a CPL/IR with over 1000hrs would be entitled to expat terms if CX start DESO again. How are they another recruitment stream? Because CX says they are cadets? I expect that's the case as this is Hong Kong.
SloppyJoe
In a nut shell, No. In the eyes of CX, their recruitment stream was via the iCad fast stream not DE. As I have said CX is hiding behind the RDO to suite their own corporate direction of not offering full expat terms to new recruits. It is a wrong interpretation of the RDO by both CX and the AOA to believe expat terms can not be paid to new expat employees who bring skills and experience to Hong Kong that isn’t readily available from the local population.
Having said that though I believe it would only be fair for the company to offer full expat terms to fast track iCads if they should decide at a late date to reintroduce DESO’s on full expat terms.
In a nut shell, No. In the eyes of CX, their recruitment stream was via the iCad fast stream not DE. As I have said CX is hiding behind the RDO to suite their own corporate direction of not offering full expat terms to new recruits. It is a wrong interpretation of the RDO by both CX and the AOA to believe expat terms can not be paid to new expat employees who bring skills and experience to Hong Kong that isn’t readily available from the local population.
Having said that though I believe it would only be fair for the company to offer full expat terms to fast track iCads if they should decide at a late date to reintroduce DESO’s on full expat terms.
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TT Programme?
Having said that though I believe it would only be fair for the company to offer full expat terms to fast track iCads if they should decide at a late date to reintroduce DESO’s on full expat terms.
That brings up a question, what happens to the current cadets? Do they now get the new allowances, or do they just stay on their original terms? What the hell is this Second Officer Transition Training? A different term for iCadet?
That brings up a question, what happens to the current cadets? Do they now get the new allowances, or do they just stay on their original terms? What the hell is this Second Officer Transition Training? A different term for iCadet?
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All iCadets should be offered the new terms ( full expat package ) if and only if that is what is introduced. If CX does not give the new package to everyone there will be a at-least 100+ SO's who will be very very unhappy and then you might see a lot of them leave for greener pastures ( a catch 22 ) if they don't offer it , many will leave and then again the SO shortage shall prevail. 
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219 retirements by 2019..bypass pay numbers now?
Crewsunite
You stated that by by 2019 there were 219 due to retire. Thanks for working that out on Crew Direct. 2019 is only 8 years from now so one can assume that if everyone of these retirements goes to 65 that there are currently 219 that are over 55 today? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if this is the case then there should be approximately 219 or more triggering bypass pay for senior FO/SOs on COS 99. Do you know how many are currently getting bypass pay? I have heard that the company is paying senior FOs bypass pay accordingly (we know the trick with not assessing SOs, sorry guys), but is there someone out there (AOA) actually checking the numbers and keeping them honest? Thanks
You stated that by by 2019 there were 219 due to retire. Thanks for working that out on Crew Direct. 2019 is only 8 years from now so one can assume that if everyone of these retirements goes to 65 that there are currently 219 that are over 55 today? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if this is the case then there should be approximately 219 or more triggering bypass pay for senior FO/SOs on COS 99. Do you know how many are currently getting bypass pay? I have heard that the company is paying senior FOs bypass pay accordingly (we know the trick with not assessing SOs, sorry guys), but is there someone out there (AOA) actually checking the numbers and keeping them honest? Thanks
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People. Hours alone don't paint the whole picture of the type of candidate Cathay has hired in recent years, or the type of pilot they are seeking now.
There is no doubt that in the A scale days, and in the early B scale days, the benefits offered by Cathay were so good, that the package spoke for itself and attracted every experienced pilot on the planet. Cathay still wanted to maintain and sell the perception of their highly "experienced" cockpit. Like it or not, and I know this gets up the nose of many on this forum, Cathay could...and did...pick and choose very carefully.
Over the years the package was watered down, and watered down some more. To the point where so called "experienced" direct entry F/O's hired over the past few years took significantly more training...and retraining...than expected. That didn't dissuade Cathay from its belief that they could pay peanuts and still get pilots. The quality or experience level was no longer an issue or overriding factor in the selection…cost was!
So Cathay has come up with a new package, one they hope will cast the biggest net possible, that caters to any pilot out there, and ....as incredible as it may be, this includes pilots with no pilot training at all!
If you have no experience or pilot training at all, no problem please sign here and you only need to pay back the entire $1,000,000 “forgivable” loan. If you have a couple of hundred hours then you get to keep a portion of the “forgivable" loan. And should you just happen to be an "experienced pilot", the only kind Cathay used to hire, well then you can keep the whole loan.
The bottom line (pardon the pun) is that anyone can now join. Today, you only need to pass a series of HR interviews. Traditional pilot experience, or hours…mean nothing. The accountants win again……it's really too bad.
Compare this situation to the one in place twenty years ago and then tell me our Cockpit product is the same?
There is no doubt that in the A scale days, and in the early B scale days, the benefits offered by Cathay were so good, that the package spoke for itself and attracted every experienced pilot on the planet. Cathay still wanted to maintain and sell the perception of their highly "experienced" cockpit. Like it or not, and I know this gets up the nose of many on this forum, Cathay could...and did...pick and choose very carefully.
Over the years the package was watered down, and watered down some more. To the point where so called "experienced" direct entry F/O's hired over the past few years took significantly more training...and retraining...than expected. That didn't dissuade Cathay from its belief that they could pay peanuts and still get pilots. The quality or experience level was no longer an issue or overriding factor in the selection…cost was!
So Cathay has come up with a new package, one they hope will cast the biggest net possible, that caters to any pilot out there, and ....as incredible as it may be, this includes pilots with no pilot training at all!
If you have no experience or pilot training at all, no problem please sign here and you only need to pay back the entire $1,000,000 “forgivable” loan. If you have a couple of hundred hours then you get to keep a portion of the “forgivable" loan. And should you just happen to be an "experienced pilot", the only kind Cathay used to hire, well then you can keep the whole loan.
The bottom line (pardon the pun) is that anyone can now join. Today, you only need to pass a series of HR interviews. Traditional pilot experience, or hours…mean nothing. The accountants win again……it's really too bad.
Compare this situation to the one in place twenty years ago and then tell me our Cockpit product is the same?
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Raven 11: Experience doesn't say too much about quality, LH,BA,AF do strict Selection Tests, train their pilots , and put them on B737/A 320 with min hours, it's mainly the Attitude of pilots ! ...Thats one of the Problems in CX, when they hired experienced pilots in their early days , when no testing in CRM took place !!
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The plaque for the alternates is in the ladies room maverick!
Raven11:
So by your own definition - A scale and a small minority of B scale pilots are the 'best of the best'?
Spoken like a true A scale w****r my friend!
Just because a company USED to make you think you are special, certainly does not mean that you are. I hope the traveling public are now aware of how thin the safety margins have become, flying with crews of B and C scale quality.
The current management now consider you and the lofty opinions of your experience as a temporary necessary annoyance and nothing else. The only attitudinal concerns they have is whether or not you will extend beyond 55 on a lower scale and save them money. How the high and mighty have fallen!
Good for you having been born more than half a century ago and been in the right place and the right time to get an A scale contract but to imply your superiority because of it says it all perfectly and describes in a nutshell why any aspiring young and obviously less than capable aviator should avoid this company like SARS.
You need to stop watching Top Gun, over and over and over again
So by your own definition - A scale and a small minority of B scale pilots are the 'best of the best'?
Spoken like a true A scale w****r my friend!
Just because a company USED to make you think you are special, certainly does not mean that you are. I hope the traveling public are now aware of how thin the safety margins have become, flying with crews of B and C scale quality.
The current management now consider you and the lofty opinions of your experience as a temporary necessary annoyance and nothing else. The only attitudinal concerns they have is whether or not you will extend beyond 55 on a lower scale and save them money. How the high and mighty have fallen!
Good for you having been born more than half a century ago and been in the right place and the right time to get an A scale contract but to imply your superiority because of it says it all perfectly and describes in a nutshell why any aspiring young and obviously less than capable aviator should avoid this company like SARS.
You need to stop watching Top Gun, over and over and over again
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Climb Out:
I hear what you're saying mate, but do you really think that CRM is the most important thing when it comes to hiring pilots?
Kontract Killer....."The current management now consider you and the lofty opinions of your experience as a temporary necessary annoyance and nothing else".
KK, after reading your post a couple of times I have to admit that it is a well written account of things (all except me being at the right place at the right time, watching Top Gun over and over, and being an A scale w****r).
I remember feeling very much the same as you about the senior Cathay pilots I flew with. I spent 10 years here as an F/O, and much of what you say is true. But I think I'd rather fly with an experienced "jerk" than with an inexperienced "nice guy" any day. So would the passengers. In any case, I hope you're glad you got that off your chest?
Badair...I read your post too, and in reply....I'll bet you "wish" you really were...
I may suffer from delusions of my own...but unlike KK, you remain boring and predictable.
I hear what you're saying mate, but do you really think that CRM is the most important thing when it comes to hiring pilots?
Kontract Killer....."The current management now consider you and the lofty opinions of your experience as a temporary necessary annoyance and nothing else".
KK, after reading your post a couple of times I have to admit that it is a well written account of things (all except me being at the right place at the right time, watching Top Gun over and over, and being an A scale w****r).
I remember feeling very much the same as you about the senior Cathay pilots I flew with. I spent 10 years here as an F/O, and much of what you say is true. But I think I'd rather fly with an experienced "jerk" than with an inexperienced "nice guy" any day. So would the passengers. In any case, I hope you're glad you got that off your chest?
Badair...I read your post too, and in reply....I'll bet you "wish" you really were...
I may suffer from delusions of my own...but unlike KK, you remain boring and predictable.
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Company reckons they can run a single pilot IFR system until the experience runs out...tick tack tock.
Just as Jetstar is about find out and most regionals in the US already know...monkeys can fly aeroplanes but not without more bananas and more sleep spent in a decent bed.
The only thing the actuarial nimrods understand is body bag count. The problem is that by the time this happens it is too late.
Just as Jetstar is about find out and most regionals in the US already know...monkeys can fly aeroplanes but not without more bananas and more sleep spent in a decent bed.
The only thing the actuarial nimrods understand is body bag count. The problem is that by the time this happens it is too late.
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Raven
I don't think you are pushing the "A -scalers are better than everyone else" idea as much as the others say....
Having said that...... The cockpit product is not the same these days. I would tend to think that after :
- 2nd officer how goes it interview
- 2nd officer upgrade interview
- 40 sectors of LFUS
- JFO Line check
- 6 months of FC's
- QL check
- Relief Check
- PCA
- Board reviews
- Handling Sims
- N1 Sim
- Countless other sims.........
You would expect the product to be somewhat better than it was in the past, wouldn't you???
Compare this situation to the one in place twenty years ago and then tell me our Cockpit product is the same?
Having said that...... The cockpit product is not the same these days. I would tend to think that after :
- 2nd officer how goes it interview
- 2nd officer upgrade interview
- 40 sectors of LFUS
- JFO Line check
- 6 months of FC's
- QL check
- Relief Check
- PCA
- Board reviews
- Handling Sims
- N1 Sim
- Countless other sims.........
You would expect the product to be somewhat better than it was in the past, wouldn't you???