Pay Talks on 13th Dec
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The simple answer to your question is no, we don't know what's going to happen on the manning side this year with the bases. And as my colleague has already pointed out, we have plenty of experienced FO's and SO' looking for a base.
I don't think I could see any please or thank you's in any of your posts. So sorry if we all didn't offer an answer quickly enough for you.
Good luck.
I don't think I could see any please or thank you's in any of your posts. So sorry if we all didn't offer an answer quickly enough for you.
Good luck.
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Obviously I am not a member
Until you manage to join, I can't see why this would be of any interest to you. The payrise, if any, will be reflected in the hypothetical offer the company would give you should they start hiring DEFOs again.
And if you do manage to join, you know what to do.
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Sorry for not being humble enough 
My original question was just:
What is the status of the CX pay Negotiations??
The reason for the interest is not so much the exact terms, but more, when they would be finished.
If the company decided to hire DEFOs again I would suspect it would first happen AFTER the pay negotiations. Hence the interest. Probably should have been more clear on that.
Thank you so much for being so kind in answering my questions - Can't wait to fly with such a great bunch!
My original question was just:
What is the status of the CX pay Negotiations??
The reason for the interest is not so much the exact terms, but more, when they would be finished.
If the company decided to hire DEFOs again I would suspect it would first happen AFTER the pay negotiations. Hence the interest. Probably should have been more clear on that.
Thank you so much for being so kind in answering my questions - Can't wait to fly with such a great bunch!
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I doubt the decision to hire DEFOs is tied to the salary negotiations. They only concern pay and no other term of the contract(s).
It would more likely be triggered by their forecast pilot need and whether they can fill that with whatever Cadets are desperate enough to sign and upgrades. DEFO and DEC hiring triggers a big headache for everyone...
Anyway, good luck.
Yeah... that.
It would more likely be triggered by their forecast pilot need and whether they can fill that with whatever Cadets are desperate enough to sign and upgrades. DEFO and DEC hiring triggers a big headache for everyone...
Anyway, good luck.
Can't wait to fly with such a great bunch!
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Hiring folks say that there is no DEFO hiring for this year. All FO positions to be filled by SO's. All SO vacancies to be filled by DESO or Cadets; however, DESO's are not currently being hired when I last spoke with them. Additionally, they are having a near impossible time finding anyone to take the package they are presently offering.
I would wager the CX plan is to hire only DESO or Cadets in the future on bases which frees them from paying Housing Allowances and such. If they are unable, then they will change I suppose. "Supply vs Demand" and "market forces" are cliches you will hear at CX on a regular basis.
I would wager the CX plan is to hire only DESO or Cadets in the future on bases which frees them from paying Housing Allowances and such. If they are unable, then they will change I suppose. "Supply vs Demand" and "market forces" are cliches you will hear at CX on a regular basis.
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Mil pilot, although you will find a serious ammount of negativity from CX chaps on this often tiresome, odious and backbiting forum, fortunately they DONT represent those from the majority of pilots at CX in general, most of whom wont try and persecute you for the personal and career choices you might make during your time in CX.
Details of the pay talks whilst for the moment should quite rightly remain out of the public domain, will soon be available for all on PPRUNe to pick at. All I will say is when it happens, and you are making your decision to join or not, do not take some of the militant rantings you will read here as anything more than a small bunch of malcontents venting their spleen the only way they know how...anonymously!
Details of the pay talks whilst for the moment should quite rightly remain out of the public domain, will soon be available for all on PPRUNe to pick at. All I will say is when it happens, and you are making your decision to join or not, do not take some of the militant rantings you will read here as anything more than a small bunch of malcontents venting their spleen the only way they know how...anonymously!
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Don't understand why they haven't opened any FO positions up on base yet (NA). A friend of mine claimed they were busy and would definately need to hire on base shortly. Is he full of it?
So does anybody have an answer to my question?
So does anybody have an answer to my question?
box
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I have already answered your question WRT basings. We have MANY pilots already employed at CX who want to leave HKG to go on a base. If there are DEFOs when so many wish to go on a base, then things will not be rosy in this part of the woods!!
box
box
I don't think my question WRT basing had anything to do with FO versus DEFO. Here was my question:
Don't understand why they haven't opened any FO positions up on base yet (NA). A friend of mine claimed they were busy and would definately need to hire on base shortly. Is he full of it?
So does anybody have an answer to my question?
So does anybody have an answer to my question?
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OK MilPilot.
I give it a try.
Your question is asked frequently in fleet forums, for the reason boxjockey stated. Some CX pilots want bases and CX has to put vacancies out for bid and can only hire DEFO's for unfilled vacancies.
However the answer which came up in the fleet forum I attended in regards of NA bases is, that at the moment there are a lot of outstanding issues caused by onshoring and other reasons. No time line was mentioned for opening more slots on Basings or new bases. Your guess is as good as mine when there will be more base slots. However having said that, I believe the last Basings bid had 4 Capt and 2 FO vacancies in NA. So, there where some bases available.
If you are in the pool, call recruitment they might be able to give you a better answer.
I give it a try.
Your question is asked frequently in fleet forums, for the reason boxjockey stated. Some CX pilots want bases and CX has to put vacancies out for bid and can only hire DEFO's for unfilled vacancies.
However the answer which came up in the fleet forum I attended in regards of NA bases is, that at the moment there are a lot of outstanding issues caused by onshoring and other reasons. No time line was mentioned for opening more slots on Basings or new bases. Your guess is as good as mine when there will be more base slots. However having said that, I believe the last Basings bid had 4 Capt and 2 FO vacancies in NA. So, there where some bases available.
If you are in the pool, call recruitment they might be able to give you a better answer.
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I'm not sure I would hold my breath for any DE slots becoming available in the near future. The basings and onshoring are such an incredible mess.
A little birdy told me that Swire has become so completely exasperated with what has been going on, that they are sending a professional who has the appropriate experience to sort out the mess. He has been given 12 months to do it. Much better than having a secretary or engineer doing it.
Until they actually know what they can get away with "legally" I don't think they will be adding to their woes.
A little birdy told me that Swire has become so completely exasperated with what has been going on, that they are sending a professional who has the appropriate experience to sort out the mess. He has been given 12 months to do it. Much better than having a secretary or engineer doing it.
Until they actually know what they can get away with "legally" I don't think they will be adding to their woes.
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Why
As a new CPL, but a mature individual with an MBA and someone who has years of various management experience may I say one thing? To the CX pilots who are concerned about anyone else knowing what the pay offer is.
May I point out that it will become public shortly,
Other people do have an indirect vested interest.
What? Other people have an interest?
Yes, ladies and gentlemen, other pilots do have an interest. What you decide will eventually influence the entire world market. As has been pointed out, we have skills that with some BULL****e paperwork transfers from around the world. Personally, I think there should be one and only one world license....that would **** the CX cadet program! Or, everyone would be stuck with it...not sure which....
Thus, as a result, the actions that are taken here will in larger or smaller ways influence the general market for airline pilots, young and old.
Sorry to be American centric here, but it is rather like the UAW, United Auto Workers of America. When Ford would agree to a contract, then GM and Chrysler would end up with similar contracts, When GM agreed, then the others would end up with similar contracts. Which ever contract got renewed first, that was the battle ground, other contracts just followed the some path.
When the UAW started giving concessions back to the companies in the last ten years, guess what? The contracts all followed the same DOWN HILL PATH.
I know this sucks. It is unfair to spend years learning to fly, to spend tens of thousands of dollars to fly to start a job that is paying less and less in relative terms. It is INSANE in my mind to pay someone 24,000 USD a year to fly a plane that cost 40 or 50 million and then because at 24,000 they can't pay the student loans, they take a second job, they work 80 plus hours a week....they fall asleep or are tired and make a mistake and crash the plane...80 dead. All to save the airline 100,000 a year per airplane,,, 20 or 30,000 USD per new SO.
Unfortunatly, the problem is, most financial guys can't seem to calculate the cost that are lost. They can show you what you cost, fuel, plane, interest, but not what opportunity costs are.
What is the cost of lost customers when you crash a plane, crew error due to being tired?
What is the cost of losing SO or FO after paying for their training? What is the cost to replace them?
About 10 or 12 years ago. A gentlemen in the US who's family ran an industrial company in the Midwest really looked at opportunity costs, at least the cost of replacing an individual. Understand this was a industrial company not aviation, however, I think it illistrates the point.
He figured that it cost 8,000 USD to hire a single worker. 8,000 USD. to hire a single person, and that is before the individual received specific training. His turn over rate was almost 30 percent a year! What did he do? He SPENT up to5,000 USD per person to retain them! Result, turn over dropped to less than five percent, productivity increased, he calculated that instead of costing money, the extra money spent really saved money!
What needs to happen is we need people in managment in this industry to realize the cost associated with turnover, lack of training and lack of pay at the low end of the scale. Really, how much would a ticket increase if we paid a little more so people didn't need a second job?
Well, that's my take
Keep you wings level and your tanks full!
May I point out that it will become public shortly,
Other people do have an indirect vested interest.
What? Other people have an interest?
Yes, ladies and gentlemen, other pilots do have an interest. What you decide will eventually influence the entire world market. As has been pointed out, we have skills that with some BULL****e paperwork transfers from around the world. Personally, I think there should be one and only one world license....that would **** the CX cadet program! Or, everyone would be stuck with it...not sure which....
Thus, as a result, the actions that are taken here will in larger or smaller ways influence the general market for airline pilots, young and old.
Sorry to be American centric here, but it is rather like the UAW, United Auto Workers of America. When Ford would agree to a contract, then GM and Chrysler would end up with similar contracts, When GM agreed, then the others would end up with similar contracts. Which ever contract got renewed first, that was the battle ground, other contracts just followed the some path.
When the UAW started giving concessions back to the companies in the last ten years, guess what? The contracts all followed the same DOWN HILL PATH.
I know this sucks. It is unfair to spend years learning to fly, to spend tens of thousands of dollars to fly to start a job that is paying less and less in relative terms. It is INSANE in my mind to pay someone 24,000 USD a year to fly a plane that cost 40 or 50 million and then because at 24,000 they can't pay the student loans, they take a second job, they work 80 plus hours a week....they fall asleep or are tired and make a mistake and crash the plane...80 dead. All to save the airline 100,000 a year per airplane,,, 20 or 30,000 USD per new SO.
Unfortunatly, the problem is, most financial guys can't seem to calculate the cost that are lost. They can show you what you cost, fuel, plane, interest, but not what opportunity costs are.
What is the cost of lost customers when you crash a plane, crew error due to being tired?
What is the cost of losing SO or FO after paying for their training? What is the cost to replace them?
About 10 or 12 years ago. A gentlemen in the US who's family ran an industrial company in the Midwest really looked at opportunity costs, at least the cost of replacing an individual. Understand this was a industrial company not aviation, however, I think it illistrates the point.
He figured that it cost 8,000 USD to hire a single worker. 8,000 USD. to hire a single person, and that is before the individual received specific training. His turn over rate was almost 30 percent a year! What did he do? He SPENT up to5,000 USD per person to retain them! Result, turn over dropped to less than five percent, productivity increased, he calculated that instead of costing money, the extra money spent really saved money!
What needs to happen is we need people in managment in this industry to realize the cost associated with turnover, lack of training and lack of pay at the low end of the scale. Really, how much would a ticket increase if we paid a little more so people didn't need a second job?
Well, that's my take
Keep you wings level and your tanks full!
johnboyy2g
Until the negotiation and acceptance process is finished it is a private and confidential matter between the AOA, its members and the company. Once this has been finalised one way or another then and only then may information be forthcoming. Until then you post isn’t relevant.
Until the negotiation and acceptance process is finished it is a private and confidential matter between the AOA, its members and the company. Once this has been finalised one way or another then and only then may information be forthcoming. Until then you post isn’t relevant.
