Jumpseat Question
...not as much as the hassle of non-members compromising the bargaining position of the rest of their colleagues 
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Jump seat priority policy:
1. HKAOA members
2. DPA members
3. Cabin Crew
4. Engineering staff
5. Ground staff
Please be guided accordingly.
1. HKAOA members
2. DPA members
3. Cabin Crew
4. Engineering staff
5. Ground staff
Please be guided accordingly.
I also figure the cash they save by not paying union dues could buy them a full fare ticket. Thus the j/s goes to the union dues paying AOA member. 
?
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Well said Hongkongpilot.
It seems to me that those most unwilling to offer a jumpseat to a fellow pilot on the grounds of union membership and those so repulsed at the thought of sharing the flight deck with someone who chooses to be a non-member would probably be the first to shelve their moral posturing for the twelve or so hours it takes to get home on the jumpseat of that same pilot who probably offered it without even thinking of such trivial B.S. and is probably unaware that this favour would not be returned.
At the end of the day who are the guys with the most moral credibility here?
The goal of securing 100 percent union membership is certainly not going to be achieved by people carrying on like juvenile jackasses.
It seems to me that those most unwilling to offer a jumpseat to a fellow pilot on the grounds of union membership and those so repulsed at the thought of sharing the flight deck with someone who chooses to be a non-member would probably be the first to shelve their moral posturing for the twelve or so hours it takes to get home on the jumpseat of that same pilot who probably offered it without even thinking of such trivial B.S. and is probably unaware that this favour would not be returned.
At the end of the day who are the guys with the most moral credibility here?
The goal of securing 100 percent union membership is certainly not going to be achieved by people carrying on like juvenile jackasses.
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Pathetic
Well said Michael Hunt!
I despair at the small minded attitudes that pervade a section of contributors to these forums. I freely give J/S to those that ask - never question their membership of the AoA, secret squirrell club or their sexuality. They have their own reasons for whatever they do or are as I have mine.
This is not a 'holier than thou' forum. I do wish some of you would just grow up.
Now - back to the coffee shop.
I despair at the small minded attitudes that pervade a section of contributors to these forums. I freely give J/S to those that ask - never question their membership of the AoA, secret squirrell club or their sexuality. They have their own reasons for whatever they do or are as I have mine.
This is not a 'holier than thou' forum. I do wish some of you would just grow up.
Now - back to the coffee shop.
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Hey Dan, would you request a jumpseat from a non AOA member?
Well played sir
It is beyond me how anyone could be so petty about helping a fellow crew member out. Grow up!
This is not a 'petty' matter, it's serious business.
I've said it once and I'll say it again: non-members jeopardise the bargaining position of the rest of their pilot colleagues as the Association leadership tries to at least maintain, if not improve, their contracts after management attacks that have been going on for nearly two decades.
And with a 70% (and climbing) HKAOA membership, the probability of having to request a jump seat from a non-member is reduced.
I've said it once and I'll say it again: non-members jeopardise the bargaining position of the rest of their pilot colleagues as the Association leadership tries to at least maintain, if not improve, their contracts after management attacks that have been going on for nearly two decades.
And with a 70% (and climbing) HKAOA membership, the probability of having to request a jump seat from a non-member is reduced.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 22nd May 2010 at 03:55.
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Captain Dart & Dan Buster,
Still waiting for an intelligent reply to hongkongpilot's question.
With your narrow minded views who would want to be in your airplane anyway!!!
Still waiting for an intelligent reply to hongkongpilot's question.
With your narrow minded views who would want to be in your airplane anyway!!!
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I almost never post on this board but do read it with interest from time to time. Most of my replies have simply been to informational requests from either younger CX crew or outsiders with an honest curiosity about our operations.
This topic, though, is so absurd as to almost require an answer. To those who ask why give the JS to a non-AOA member, let me ask you a couple of thoughts/questions:
1. Who owns the airplane, and thus the JS? Is it our employer or the AOA? Last time I flew (18 hours or so ago), that bugger was screwed into the cabin floor just like the other 300+ seats. The JS is a courtesy CX allows us to offer to our fellow employees, nothing else. It is not a bargaining chip for you or the union.
2. You make your statements in a way that basically says only AOA members are full crew at CX. Really? How would you feel if all non-AOA members walked off the job tomorrow night at 11:00pm? Now before you say how incredibly wonderful that would be, keep in mind that a) you think your hours are bad now I can promise you you'll be flying 99.99 hours every month moving forward, and b) your profit share will be living somewhere outside obvlivion for the next 10 years. Let's not even think about what pay will be. You say 30% are non-members? Well, think of capital costs pretty much staying the same except you lose 700 salaries and revenue goes down by, what, 30-40%? Nice business plan guys.
I have been an AOA member almost since its beginning and yet the thought had honestly never occured to me in almost 9 years as a captain to even link the idea of membership with a JS request. Wow, you actually go look at the membership list to decide who to grant J1 to? Really? I sure to God hope you are wasting all this time sitting in a hotel room rather than when you're actually home! Geez.
This topic, though, is so absurd as to almost require an answer. To those who ask why give the JS to a non-AOA member, let me ask you a couple of thoughts/questions:
1. Who owns the airplane, and thus the JS? Is it our employer or the AOA? Last time I flew (18 hours or so ago), that bugger was screwed into the cabin floor just like the other 300+ seats. The JS is a courtesy CX allows us to offer to our fellow employees, nothing else. It is not a bargaining chip for you or the union.
2. You make your statements in a way that basically says only AOA members are full crew at CX. Really? How would you feel if all non-AOA members walked off the job tomorrow night at 11:00pm? Now before you say how incredibly wonderful that would be, keep in mind that a) you think your hours are bad now I can promise you you'll be flying 99.99 hours every month moving forward, and b) your profit share will be living somewhere outside obvlivion for the next 10 years. Let's not even think about what pay will be. You say 30% are non-members? Well, think of capital costs pretty much staying the same except you lose 700 salaries and revenue goes down by, what, 30-40%? Nice business plan guys.
I have been an AOA member almost since its beginning and yet the thought had honestly never occured to me in almost 9 years as a captain to even link the idea of membership with a JS request. Wow, you actually go look at the membership list to decide who to grant J1 to? Really? I sure to God hope you are wasting all this time sitting in a hotel room rather than when you're actually home! Geez.
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Hello 744Cap,
"The JS is a courtesy CX allows us to offer to our fellow employees, nothing else. It is not a bargaining chip for you or the union"
No, the JS is the last vestige of the professional standing we used to have as pilots. It is the ONLY thing we have remaining to offer our fellow professionals.
You have been a captain at CX since 2001 according to your post. So that means you must be one of the last A-scalers that joined in 1992ish or so?
Yet another one of the self-obsessed, vitally important men that confuse joining date with ability.
"The JS is a courtesy CX allows us to offer to our fellow employees, nothing else. It is not a bargaining chip for you or the union"
No, the JS is the last vestige of the professional standing we used to have as pilots. It is the ONLY thing we have remaining to offer our fellow professionals.
You have been a captain at CX since 2001 according to your post. So that means you must be one of the last A-scalers that joined in 1992ish or so?
Yet another one of the self-obsessed, vitally important men that confuse joining date with ability.
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DR -
"Yet another one of the self-obsessed, vitally important men that confuse joining date with ability."
Excuse me? What in any post I have made on this site referred to DOJ as a criteria for anything? What statement have I made that would lead you to an acusation of self-obsession? I think you owe an apology, sir.
So now you want to add in DOJ as well as union membership as a qualification for the JS? If you're AOA, joined after 1994 and fit some other random criteria someone chooses, you get it! If you are not AOA but joined after 1994, maybe. DOJ prior to 1994 and non-AOA, uh-oh! I mean, get serious and at least act like a professional pilot.
You are wrong on the JS, by the way. First, every seat on the plane belongs to the company. We can negotiate for the right to use it for something other than a rest seat but the company is the only one that can say it can be used for commuting pilots or anyone else. CAD does not refer to a seat in the cabin for any use other than crew rest. You may not like that fact but your opinion is irrelevant.
Second, my professional standing as a pilot has absolutely nothing to do with something as minor as a jumpseat, and I don't believe any pilot in CX would or should see it any differently. We fly very expensive airplanes with hundreds of souls on board, land them safely in all kinds of mechanical and weather conditions, and collect a wage that provides for our families. I'm not sure how you judge yourself as a human being but do hope it has more meat to it than your ability to give away a seat to somebody.
I certainly appreciate it when someone uses the seat and is courteous enough to say thank you, but would say that's about all the thought I give to this issue. Is it a nice perk? Absolutely. I use it frequently and would say I give it away on over 90% of the sectors I fly. I wish we had JS priveleges like in the US but I knew we didn't when I signed the contract, so I don't complain about that fact.
"Yet another one of the self-obsessed, vitally important men that confuse joining date with ability."
Excuse me? What in any post I have made on this site referred to DOJ as a criteria for anything? What statement have I made that would lead you to an acusation of self-obsession? I think you owe an apology, sir.
So now you want to add in DOJ as well as union membership as a qualification for the JS? If you're AOA, joined after 1994 and fit some other random criteria someone chooses, you get it! If you are not AOA but joined after 1994, maybe. DOJ prior to 1994 and non-AOA, uh-oh! I mean, get serious and at least act like a professional pilot.
You are wrong on the JS, by the way. First, every seat on the plane belongs to the company. We can negotiate for the right to use it for something other than a rest seat but the company is the only one that can say it can be used for commuting pilots or anyone else. CAD does not refer to a seat in the cabin for any use other than crew rest. You may not like that fact but your opinion is irrelevant.
Second, my professional standing as a pilot has absolutely nothing to do with something as minor as a jumpseat, and I don't believe any pilot in CX would or should see it any differently. We fly very expensive airplanes with hundreds of souls on board, land them safely in all kinds of mechanical and weather conditions, and collect a wage that provides for our families. I'm not sure how you judge yourself as a human being but do hope it has more meat to it than your ability to give away a seat to somebody.
I certainly appreciate it when someone uses the seat and is courteous enough to say thank you, but would say that's about all the thought I give to this issue. Is it a nice perk? Absolutely. I use it frequently and would say I give it away on over 90% of the sectors I fly. I wish we had JS priveleges like in the US but I knew we didn't when I signed the contract, so I don't complain about that fact.
I respect your views, 747Cap, but we have soft-soaped the non-HKAOA members for long enough; see my post #36 . The present reality is that jumpseats are available, under certain conditions, for captains to allocate as they see fit.
You mention commuting pilots. Some of these individuals are on Hong Kong A-scale and allowances, not paying tax in their home countries, extremely wealthy men by any standards, and are still too 'tight' to pay a few lousy bucks a month to the AOA to support their colleagues and attempt to maintain the contract that has been so good to them.
You mention jumpseating in the US. Would any of our North American Ppruners shed light on how easy it is to get a jump seat in the US if you are not in the union?
You mention commuting pilots. Some of these individuals are on Hong Kong A-scale and allowances, not paying tax in their home countries, extremely wealthy men by any standards, and are still too 'tight' to pay a few lousy bucks a month to the AOA to support their colleagues and attempt to maintain the contract that has been so good to them.
You mention jumpseating in the US. Would any of our North American Ppruners shed light on how easy it is to get a jump seat in the US if you are not in the union?
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Some of these individuals are on Hong Kong A-scale and allowances, not paying tax in their home countries, extremely wealthy men by any standards, and are still too 'tight' to pay a few lousy bucks a month to the AOA to support their colleagues and attempt to maintain the contract that has been so good to them.
Read my post again, Flaps, I used the word 'Some' (...of these individuals etc.), not 'every'. I concede that the persons I referred to represent the most extreme end of the freeloading spectrum.
I also agree that there are various other excuses being peddled on Pprune for not being a part of the Association apart from parsimony; these include perceived past injustices, apathy, being a management apologist or stooge, and 'not believing what it stands for anymore'. You also have an issue with vocal individuals abandoning their mates; I've seen this myself but it's still a poor excuse to justify your own actions.
So, what do you stand for? Were you part of 'the good majority that left the AOA...'? I look forward to hearing from you regarding a credible alternative, which would include uniting over 2,000 pilots into a new professional group; or maybe you would like to negotiate with the DFO directly on your own behalf. I understand that the present incumbent has an open door policy.
Like a lot of things in life, sonny, the AOA has, and has had, its problems but for most of us it's the only game in town. Those working hard on our behalf need all the support we can give them, and if it includes putting just a little pressure on non-members, you can sue me.
I also agree that there are various other excuses being peddled on Pprune for not being a part of the Association apart from parsimony; these include perceived past injustices, apathy, being a management apologist or stooge, and 'not believing what it stands for anymore'. You also have an issue with vocal individuals abandoning their mates; I've seen this myself but it's still a poor excuse to justify your own actions.
So, what do you stand for? Were you part of 'the good majority that left the AOA...'? I look forward to hearing from you regarding a credible alternative, which would include uniting over 2,000 pilots into a new professional group; or maybe you would like to negotiate with the DFO directly on your own behalf. I understand that the present incumbent has an open door policy.
Like a lot of things in life, sonny, the AOA has, and has had, its problems but for most of us it's the only game in town. Those working hard on our behalf need all the support we can give them, and if it includes putting just a little pressure on non-members, you can sue me.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 23rd May 2010 at 12:35.
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Just shows how uninformed you really are!
I won't need to negotiate anything. I will never ever sign a new CoS and I will ultimately be better off than your negotiated terms.
Negotiations imply reaching an agreement that is fair, balanced, and beneficial to both parties. Since when has there an agreement been reached between the company and the AOA that's been beneficial to its members. The company has always used the AOA to get what it wants, under the pretence of "negotiations", maybe not after the first round, but certainly by the second round. If not for the AOA how else would you be able to sell sub-standard agreements to the pilot body. What's even more pathetic is how the members then justify the existence of the AOA and assume there is no way we could have done better without the help of the AOA.
Yeah tell that to the brave few who started the CPU and won a landmark lawsuit in Hong Kong.
Close down this useless association and open another one with paid professionals, then you might interest many in re-joining.
If you deny non-AOA members the jumpseat and have the balls to say no to their face and ultimately face a D&G, then you have my respect, otherwise you are the epitome of what is wrong with many of the AOA members...lets be militant as long as it doesn't jeopardize my personal needs or employment.
I won't need to negotiate anything. I will never ever sign a new CoS and I will ultimately be better off than your negotiated terms.
Negotiations imply reaching an agreement that is fair, balanced, and beneficial to both parties. Since when has there an agreement been reached between the company and the AOA that's been beneficial to its members. The company has always used the AOA to get what it wants, under the pretence of "negotiations", maybe not after the first round, but certainly by the second round. If not for the AOA how else would you be able to sell sub-standard agreements to the pilot body. What's even more pathetic is how the members then justify the existence of the AOA and assume there is no way we could have done better without the help of the AOA.
the AOA has, and has had, its problems but for most of us it's the only game in town.
Close down this useless association and open another one with paid professionals, then you might interest many in re-joining.
If you deny non-AOA members the jumpseat and have the balls to say no to their face and ultimately face a D&G, then you have my respect, otherwise you are the epitome of what is wrong with many of the AOA members...lets be militant as long as it doesn't jeopardize my personal needs or employment.
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I read this thread as I was curious as to how my colleagues release jumpseats. It made me realise I am obviously a little 'simple' in my approach.
FWIW, here is my approach:
Commuters/family members of the crew get highest priority.
Cabin crew next, then ground staff third. Why that order? Because I have noticed over the years that ground staff generally don't fly on the flights they asked the jumpseat for. Commuters do 90% of the time, cabin crew over 50% of the time. I tend to give everyone a few days to bid after the roster is released just in case they are flying or out of computer contact. If I have two commuters then I would email them and ask them if one has an alternative - if all else fails, I will give them out based on seniority. My only pet hate, which few pilots do, is people holding J1 on multiple flights. I remember once when I was on the tupperware aircraft checking other flights and finding out that a particular jumpseater(not a pilot) had j1 out of Syd and Mel on 4 different flights! The new system helps, to some extent, in identifying duplicate requests. With so many cathay staff commuting it pays to only have jumpseats on the flight you actually 'need', not every possible flight you might want!
In my previous job I was told that there were three subjects you should never talk about at dinner- sex, politics or religion. Well, I think union membership is like religion - I might want you to agree to my way of thinking but it is your right to think differently. My god, if your worth as a human being comes down to being a member of an Association in Hong kong then we really are no better than the hitler youth or communist party!
If you can't give a jumpseat to a non-member, for god's sake don't let your kids play with them at school. And whatever you do, make sure you ensure there is the coldest possible environment in the cockpit - who cares if you have an accident, just as long as you have ostracised the pilot for being a non-member!
So, like I said, commuters/family first, cabin crew second, ground staff third. Sorry if that offends anyone but that's how I do it!
I would also ask to do what I strive to do(since I am a regular commuter). If you are not going to use the jumpseat, advise as soon as possible - cancel with c/c and if you get the chance and it is short notice, email the CN just in case there are other jumpseaters. Remember J3/j4 are useless on an Aussie flight so knowing that j1 or j2 is now free can help someone else with their travel plans since they will move up the jumpseat priority!
FWIW, here is my approach:
Commuters/family members of the crew get highest priority.
Cabin crew next, then ground staff third. Why that order? Because I have noticed over the years that ground staff generally don't fly on the flights they asked the jumpseat for. Commuters do 90% of the time, cabin crew over 50% of the time. I tend to give everyone a few days to bid after the roster is released just in case they are flying or out of computer contact. If I have two commuters then I would email them and ask them if one has an alternative - if all else fails, I will give them out based on seniority. My only pet hate, which few pilots do, is people holding J1 on multiple flights. I remember once when I was on the tupperware aircraft checking other flights and finding out that a particular jumpseater(not a pilot) had j1 out of Syd and Mel on 4 different flights! The new system helps, to some extent, in identifying duplicate requests. With so many cathay staff commuting it pays to only have jumpseats on the flight you actually 'need', not every possible flight you might want!
In my previous job I was told that there were three subjects you should never talk about at dinner- sex, politics or religion. Well, I think union membership is like religion - I might want you to agree to my way of thinking but it is your right to think differently. My god, if your worth as a human being comes down to being a member of an Association in Hong kong then we really are no better than the hitler youth or communist party!
If you can't give a jumpseat to a non-member, for god's sake don't let your kids play with them at school. And whatever you do, make sure you ensure there is the coldest possible environment in the cockpit - who cares if you have an accident, just as long as you have ostracised the pilot for being a non-member!
So, like I said, commuters/family first, cabin crew second, ground staff third. Sorry if that offends anyone but that's how I do it!
I would also ask to do what I strive to do(since I am a regular commuter). If you are not going to use the jumpseat, advise as soon as possible - cancel with c/c and if you get the chance and it is short notice, email the CN just in case there are other jumpseaters. Remember J3/j4 are useless on an Aussie flight so knowing that j1 or j2 is now free can help someone else with their travel plans since they will move up the jumpseat priority!
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Interesting take on it NC, but I have to ask, why the priority for commuters? Is that not unlike the arbitrary AOA/non-AOA distinction??
Quite frankly, I don't see why, for example, a HK-based guy trying to return to HK from SYD after leave is less JS-worthy than SYD commuter who is trying to get to work. But by your "priority" allocation, the commuter trumps the leave returnee. I find this idea quite strange.
(Lest I be accused of picking on your system, yours is not the only "JS priority allocation system" I have heard of that favours commuters.)
I guess my point is this: I see NO reason as to why commuters are seen as warranting preference over non-commuters. This represents some fairly skewed logic in my humble opinion. One could even argue that the opposite is warranted: i.e. the commuter has chosen this rather deleterious lifestyle choice, and it should be him/her disadvantaged as opposed to those who are working within the "spirit" of the HK-based roster system.
(How many times have you arrived at despatch to have a commuter ask "Can I rest 1st/2nd, I need to rest at time X due to my commute!?")
Thankfully, I have 18+ years to command before I have to worry about such ethically complex questions. Honestly, it's enough to make a man commute!!
Any Captains trying to work out who I am to decide whether I should get JS1 or not: I'm a 49er supporting, CPU & AOA member who regularly commutes with his 38DD 19 year-old promiscuous Brazilian bi-sexual swinger-wife who has a thing for Captains that give her husband J1.
Quite frankly, I don't see why, for example, a HK-based guy trying to return to HK from SYD after leave is less JS-worthy than SYD commuter who is trying to get to work. But by your "priority" allocation, the commuter trumps the leave returnee. I find this idea quite strange.
(Lest I be accused of picking on your system, yours is not the only "JS priority allocation system" I have heard of that favours commuters.)
I guess my point is this: I see NO reason as to why commuters are seen as warranting preference over non-commuters. This represents some fairly skewed logic in my humble opinion. One could even argue that the opposite is warranted: i.e. the commuter has chosen this rather deleterious lifestyle choice, and it should be him/her disadvantaged as opposed to those who are working within the "spirit" of the HK-based roster system.
(How many times have you arrived at despatch to have a commuter ask "Can I rest 1st/2nd, I need to rest at time X due to my commute!?")
Thankfully, I have 18+ years to command before I have to worry about such ethically complex questions. Honestly, it's enough to make a man commute!!
Any Captains trying to work out who I am to decide whether I should get JS1 or not: I'm a 49er supporting, CPU & AOA member who regularly commutes with his 38DD 19 year-old promiscuous Brazilian bi-sexual swinger-wife who has a thing for Captains that give her husband J1.
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One aspect I have noticed with Cabin Crew requesting my jump-seats, is the great rush of requests as soon as the system opens on 18th of the month.
These crew are requesting the j/s for their travel plans based on their published roster, while still at the same time waiting for all their roster swaps to be processed. When their swaps are done, they no longer need to travel on the days they applied for the j/s. If they then do not cancel the awarded j/s, the system remains clogged up with "stealth" j/s passengers who don't show up on the day.
I tend to ignore Cabin Crew j/s seat requests until about 25th of the month, and then favor the Crew who input their requests later (say on 23rd or 24th etc).
It would make life easier if there were more than 4 j/s slots. I think my record is about 25 applicants for a Manila flight! Only 1 of the 4 j/s passengers turned up, so the other seat went on seniority.
These crew are requesting the j/s for their travel plans based on their published roster, while still at the same time waiting for all their roster swaps to be processed. When their swaps are done, they no longer need to travel on the days they applied for the j/s. If they then do not cancel the awarded j/s, the system remains clogged up with "stealth" j/s passengers who don't show up on the day.
I tend to ignore Cabin Crew j/s seat requests until about 25th of the month, and then favor the Crew who input their requests later (say on 23rd or 24th etc).
It would make life easier if there were more than 4 j/s slots. I think my record is about 25 applicants for a Manila flight! Only 1 of the 4 j/s passengers turned up, so the other seat went on seniority.
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Any Captains trying to work out who I am to decide whether I should get JS1 or not: I'm a 49er supporting, CPU & AOA member who regularly commutes with his 38DD 19 year-old promiscuous Brazilian bi-sexual swinger-wife who has a thing for Captains that give her husband J1.
