Local pilots fly off the handle at expat perks
sirhcttarp
I think you will find that only happened to 2 or 3 guys, and one of them left to go to another Hong Kong carrier. It doesn't seem to be the norm. It was unfair to those involved.
Already experienced = expat terms
No license or experience = cadet, LEP
Already experienced = expat terms
No license or experience = cadet, LEP
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People it has nothing to do with experience level or race! 
It is an expat housing allowance given to those who relocated themselves (and family) to Hong Kong, without holding the right of residency.
All these arguments about hours and race are really starting to
me off. It is an expat housing allowance. Pure and simple.
Now if the local guys are able to get some sort of extra allowance, call it a retention bonus after gaining a P1 rating, then fantastic for them. This is what they should be pushing for IMHO.
It is an expat housing allowance given to those who relocated themselves (and family) to Hong Kong, without holding the right of residency. All these arguments about hours and race are really starting to
me off. It is an expat housing allowance. Pure and simple. Now if the local guys are able to get some sort of extra allowance, call it a retention bonus after gaining a P1 rating, then fantastic for them. This is what they should be pushing for IMHO.
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When the eyes of green are closed what the HKAOA should be pushing for is a RISE in BASIC pay for everyone, inflation has hit everybody!
Extra allowances are useless and cheap for the company, a basic pay rise will increase PF contributions. Unfortunately the likes of CXchildlabour are so blinkered and bigoted they cannot see the wood for the trees.
The HKAOA President should be making a statement, as I do not remember voting on this strategy.
Extra allowances are useless and cheap for the company, a basic pay rise will increase PF contributions. Unfortunately the likes of CXchildlabour are so blinkered and bigoted they cannot see the wood for the trees.
The HKAOA President should be making a statement, as I do not remember voting on this strategy.
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Apparently ( and don't shoot the rumour monger if I am wrong - I am relaying what I was told ) some sons of CX pilots who were born and grew up in Hong Kong joined as cadets (or even DESO) but were given housing. If NOT holding the ID and NOT having to move your family overseas is the qualification then these guys certainly don't qualify?
Whereas a guy who grew up in Canada / Aus but is from an originally HKG chinese family - who then joins as cadet and moves to HKG where he has no more immediate family or home - is considered a local purely because his father did him the favour of getting him a HKG ID??
ANd as much as I agree with previous poster that we should all get a payrise - what will happen is that CEP FO's will soon get the $ 12000 ( like Dragon guys get ) in order to shut them up and stop embarrassing the company and everyone else can forget about any increases.
Lesson learned : You only get something if you make enough noise.
Whereas a guy who grew up in Canada / Aus but is from an originally HKG chinese family - who then joins as cadet and moves to HKG where he has no more immediate family or home - is considered a local purely because his father did him the favour of getting him a HKG ID??
ANd as much as I agree with previous poster that we should all get a payrise - what will happen is that CEP FO's will soon get the $ 12000 ( like Dragon guys get ) in order to shut them up and stop embarrassing the company and everyone else can forget about any increases.
Lesson learned : You only get something if you make enough noise.
sirhcttarp
There has been many more than 3 Permanent HKID join the company with experience.
Most of them were given expat conditions after the company tried to put them on local terms. They told the company they would take their services elsewhere if it was not an expat package, and the company backed down.
iceman50,
I agree with you completely. A payrise for all.
Most of them were given expat conditions after the company tried to put them on local terms. They told the company they would take their services elsewhere if it was not an expat package, and the company backed down.
iceman50,
I agree with you completely. A payrise for all.
The goal of the airline is to increase the number of locally employed pilots - both on Bases overseas and in Hong Kong. Through the Cadet Pilot Scheme, we have made a huge investment over the past two decades in training young people who may otherwise not have had the opportunity to become pilots and to develop local talent in Hong Kong.
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It's quite simple really trendsetters, it is called supply and demand.
I would wager that some time ago CX and KA said to themselves " hang on, we don't need to pay this much, there is a glut of pilots out there " ..........gentlemen I give you " B " scale.
They probably also said " we need to employ locals to be seen to be doing the right thing, but there are no ( or hardly any ) locals that meet our requirements ".... gentlemen, I give you the cadet scheme.
Do you guys really think that they pay us what they do, including housing, because they like us and don't like you ??? really ?? do you really think it's personal ?? I know it's already been mentioned but how many non A scalers bitch about not getting A scale ?? Probably not too many, they signed up for B scale and that is what they got, pay increases due to rises in cost of living etc are a completely different animal, but basically they are getting what they signed for.
They pay us what is required to leave our home country, ( and quite often a good job ) our families, our clean air and our 2 storey/4bed/3 bath house on a 700 sq meter block etc and not a cent more, if they thought they could get away with payin less I can assure you they would.
Until there are a glut of pilots, and I would'nt hold my breath, you guys are on a hiding to nothing because at the end of the day, what do you have to bargain with ? apart from voting with your feet which none of you seem to be keen on.
This is not us against them, racism or any other bleeding heart issue you may care to hide it behind, it is simple economics.
IF THEY DID'NT NEED US, THEY WOULD'NT BE PAYING US ( or any other expat in HK ) WHAT THEY DO.
Hope thats clear enough.
Good luck with improving your lot but do yourself a favour and drop the chase for expat conditions.
I would wager that some time ago CX and KA said to themselves " hang on, we don't need to pay this much, there is a glut of pilots out there " ..........gentlemen I give you " B " scale.
They probably also said " we need to employ locals to be seen to be doing the right thing, but there are no ( or hardly any ) locals that meet our requirements ".... gentlemen, I give you the cadet scheme.
Do you guys really think that they pay us what they do, including housing, because they like us and don't like you ??? really ?? do you really think it's personal ?? I know it's already been mentioned but how many non A scalers bitch about not getting A scale ?? Probably not too many, they signed up for B scale and that is what they got, pay increases due to rises in cost of living etc are a completely different animal, but basically they are getting what they signed for.
They pay us what is required to leave our home country, ( and quite often a good job ) our families, our clean air and our 2 storey/4bed/3 bath house on a 700 sq meter block etc and not a cent more, if they thought they could get away with payin less I can assure you they would.
Until there are a glut of pilots, and I would'nt hold my breath, you guys are on a hiding to nothing because at the end of the day, what do you have to bargain with ? apart from voting with your feet which none of you seem to be keen on.
This is not us against them, racism or any other bleeding heart issue you may care to hide it behind, it is simple economics.
IF THEY DID'NT NEED US, THEY WOULD'NT BE PAYING US ( or any other expat in HK ) WHAT THEY DO.
Hope thats clear enough.
Good luck with improving your lot but do yourself a favour and drop the chase for expat conditions.
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You left your home country for a job in Hong Kong Airlines. Didn't take much to entice you out of your country!
Oh, other than my point about getting what you signed for
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Due a world-wide pilot shortage and underhanded industrial action; supply and demand actually. KA took anyone. Mostly HKA pilots.
If I were a local pilot at KA. And noted the conditions HKA pilots accepted in coming to HKG. I would be jaded as well. They worked for less than local conditions, undercut everyone, slid over to KA and got a pay rise, housing and legacy expatriate conditions. All on the industrial efforts of others.
Good luck to the local guys at KA. But what are they doing?
If I were a local pilot at KA. And noted the conditions HKA pilots accepted in coming to HKG. I would be jaded as well. They worked for less than local conditions, undercut everyone, slid over to KA and got a pay rise, housing and legacy expatriate conditions. All on the industrial efforts of others.
Good luck to the local guys at KA. But what are they doing?
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The locals in KAare up in arms.Their pants are on the floor!.
Well enough, we need to forget out issues, and work together, to create
the best force together
Even if pay is so different!
Well I never
Well enough, we need to forget out issues, and work together, to create
the best force together
Even if pay is so different!
Well I never
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Stop the whinging
Surely, it makes sense for a company wanting to make up for resource shortfalls by importing flying skills to offer those that are willing to uproot and go live in another country some incentives to do so. At the end of the day, whether it might be cloaked in equally opportunity arguments but it ultimately comes down to money.
Last edited by LongExcursion; 14th Apr 2010 at 02:03.
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They were given a flying licence and a seat on a widebody jet. The same one I paid over $200000 and over 10 years of slave labour in a lot of dodgy airplanes.
When I can live in my home country is when Cx can stop paying me housing!!!
When I can live in my home country is when Cx can stop paying me housing!!!
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sirhcttsarp
"Which is why anyway you cut it, CX is discriminating, getting away with it, and laughing to the bank."
The problem with using a word like "discriminating" is that it comes with a lot of baggage. CX is discriminating against whom; what group?
We have had the argument they discriminate against those of Chinese origin; yet we have pilots of Chinese origin on expat terms.
We have had the argument they have discriminate against those with HKIDs; yet we have pilots who joined with HKIDs who are on expat terms.
We now have an argument they are discriminating against employees who get scholarships; yet these people are generally not chinese and not HKID holders.
It would seem that anyone joining in the future as a DESO will be a CEP (irrespective of their experience level). So where does that leave the discrimination label?
Perhaps it is just market forces. They access your circumstances and pitch a contract at you. You accept it or decline it. If you accept it; deal with it.
I shall leave you with anecdote from a few years back. One of the most senior extendees was recounting to me a conversation he had just had with NR. In that conversation Nick had confirmed it was inevitable that CX would get RA65, however Nick was not going to have over 60's in HK on expat terms. Nick felt that by age 60 the company had paid for enough housing and education for that individual and if the he didn't like it, the guy had seniority to go on base. The extendee was livid; he had not lived in his "home" country for decades, his wife was settled in HK and his school age children considered HK their home. How would you label this case?
a. Blatant age discrimination;
b. Nick has a point, the company has paid enough. How many houses, wives and kids must they fund.
c. The guys home is now HK; he is no longer an expat.
Food for thought??
The problem with using a word like "discriminating" is that it comes with a lot of baggage. CX is discriminating against whom; what group?
We have had the argument they discriminate against those of Chinese origin; yet we have pilots of Chinese origin on expat terms.
We have had the argument they have discriminate against those with HKIDs; yet we have pilots who joined with HKIDs who are on expat terms.
We now have an argument they are discriminating against employees who get scholarships; yet these people are generally not chinese and not HKID holders.
It would seem that anyone joining in the future as a DESO will be a CEP (irrespective of their experience level). So where does that leave the discrimination label?
Perhaps it is just market forces. They access your circumstances and pitch a contract at you. You accept it or decline it. If you accept it; deal with it.
I shall leave you with anecdote from a few years back. One of the most senior extendees was recounting to me a conversation he had just had with NR. In that conversation Nick had confirmed it was inevitable that CX would get RA65, however Nick was not going to have over 60's in HK on expat terms. Nick felt that by age 60 the company had paid for enough housing and education for that individual and if the he didn't like it, the guy had seniority to go on base. The extendee was livid; he had not lived in his "home" country for decades, his wife was settled in HK and his school age children considered HK their home. How would you label this case?
a. Blatant age discrimination;
b. Nick has a point, the company has paid enough. How many houses, wives and kids must they fund.
c. The guys home is now HK; he is no longer an expat.
Food for thought??
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I can't see the discrimination claim either.
As incompetent as CX's management and lawyers are, they would have no trouble at all disassembling the discrimination claim in a justice court.
Therefore why continue charging on with that frail argument?
Everybody here agrees that the CEPs should get some form of compensation and fight for it, but this is not the way to get it.
a. Yes, why would he lose the benefits at 60, but not at 59?
b. They wanted to keep well paid, senior Capts instead their own FOs and SOs, so why complain about how much it would cost them?
c. Can 'the guy' in question retire in HK, or get another job in HK should he need to? What if there are no bases where 'the guy' is from? Is he forced to accept the lesser conditions he never signed for, just to keep a job he is entitled to?
As incompetent as CX's management and lawyers are, they would have no trouble at all disassembling the discrimination claim in a justice court.
Therefore why continue charging on with that frail argument?
Everybody here agrees that the CEPs should get some form of compensation and fight for it, but this is not the way to get it.
a. Blatant age discrimination;
b. Nick has a point, the company has paid enough. How many houses, wives and kids must they fund.
c. The guys home is now HK; he is no longer an expat.
b. Nick has a point, the company has paid enough. How many houses, wives and kids must they fund.
c. The guys home is now HK; he is no longer an expat.
b. They wanted to keep well paid, senior Capts instead their own FOs and SOs, so why complain about how much it would cost them?
c. Can 'the guy' in question retire in HK, or get another job in HK should he need to? What if there are no bases where 'the guy' is from? Is he forced to accept the lesser conditions he never signed for, just to keep a job he is entitled to?
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so that he can later blindside a divided flightcrew, pull the rug out from under the "EXPAT" housing since all these "EXPAT"s are now enticed to hk with NO HOUSING
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How would you label this case?
a. Blatant age discrimination;
b. Nick has a point, the company has paid enough. How many houses, wives and kids must they fund.
c. The guys home is now HK; he is no longer an expat.
a. Blatant age discrimination;
b. Nick has a point, the company has paid enough. How many houses, wives and kids must they fund.
c. The guys home is now HK; he is no longer an expat.
when does an expat stop being an expat?
a person who lives outside their native country;
So I guess the answer is when they move back to their native country and not before. Pretty simple really.
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Due a world-wide pilot shortage and underhanded industrial action; supply and demand actually. KA took anyone. Mostly HKA pilots.
If I were a local pilot at KA. And noted the conditions HKA pilots accepted in coming to HKG. I would be jaded as well. They worked for less than local conditions, undercut everyone, slid over to KA and got a pay rise, housing and legacy expatriate conditions. All on the industrial efforts of others
If I were a local pilot at KA. And noted the conditions HKA pilots accepted in coming to HKG. I would be jaded as well. They worked for less than local conditions, undercut everyone, slid over to KA and got a pay rise, housing and legacy expatriate conditions. All on the industrial efforts of others
HKA lied and Bull**itted to get people to come to HK, hardly a comparison to CX/KA who tell you what conditions you will be on, up front, no surprises. KA took experienced guys with HK licences and that were living here in HK, what a surprise
As far as working for less and undercutting everyone, you just shot yourself in the foot ( which looks like it is in your mouth ) as the cadets are working for lower conditions are'nt they ? Is'nt that what this thread is all about
So using your warped logic, the cadets are undercutting everyone. ( your analysis, not mine )