744 Mentoring Program
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: europe
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HWF is spot on. The guys on the 3rd floor ( at least on the 744) do show some encouraging signs, but all those trainers who think their way of doing things is the only acceptable way, that is the root of the problem. How often you hear them start a debrief : "Well, the way I do this.." 
You can't change a company culture over night, granted, but clearly I am sick and tired of this constant F/O bashing in every training newsletter. If we have higher failure rates than other major airlines (with more experience in the right hand than most other airline!) than this is clearly a management failure.
Typical street conversation that tells it all :
A: " I have a sim / line check tomorrow "
B: " Oh, who with ? "
Oh, and I also agree with HWF that we actually do have some really great trainers.
You can't change a company culture over night, granted, but clearly I am sick and tired of this constant F/O bashing in every training newsletter. If we have higher failure rates than other major airlines (with more experience in the right hand than most other airline!) than this is clearly a management failure.
Typical street conversation that tells it all :
A: " I have a sim / line check tomorrow "
B: " Oh, who with ? "
Oh, and I also agree with HWF that we actually do have some really great trainers.
When are you guys going to learn.
Rightly or wrongly this Airline ( like a lot of others ) is a Captains Airline.
I don't say I agree with it but it is, so accept it, smile and move on.
3 words after a dumb stupid crap debrief:-- O I C
then take some notes to look interested and keen then do it the way you want later.
PLAY THE GAME fellas.
I was once told by a BTC that "some checkers have an excellent grasp of the non-essential"
Rightly or wrongly this Airline ( like a lot of others ) is a Captains Airline.
I don't say I agree with it but it is, so accept it, smile and move on.
3 words after a dumb stupid crap debrief:-- O I C
then take some notes to look interested and keen then do it the way you want later.
PLAY THE GAME fellas.
I was once told by a BTC that "some checkers have an excellent grasp of the non-essential"
this is another one of those "if you are not a CX captain, you know F*** all" gems isnt it, really! hate to say it, i do chew the fat on occasions with mates over a beer.....my mates? they may not be senior cathay hands but still have had 20 years in aviation flying everything from red arrows to UN charters dodging bullets in africa to float planes in mauritius etc etc etc
i dont need to talk to an old man with no life about flying thank you very much....because my mates are good enough to discuss flying with....on the rare occasions that we cant fill a conversation talking about tits and bums.
i dont need to talk to an old man with no life about flying thank you very much....because my mates are good enough to discuss flying with....on the rare occasions that we cant fill a conversation talking about tits and bums.
You need to stop bitching about the old farts in the left seat.
Maybe you have/could learn something from us?
Every Captain should pass on "tips" "advice" etc to the FO or SO. I know that I certainly listened and remembered advice given by the good Captains I flew with. They knew what they were doing and had a really good way of imparting their experience. Most times they wont have to say anything, just lead by example.
( As a Captain you can and do learn from the FO, new ways of doing things etc. It is a 2 way street. )
At all times ( and especially on checks )as an FO you have to develope a good "bull**** filter" take on-board what you think is good and relevent and dump the rest.
Like I said the 3 words to live by when a CC de-briefs you with his own rubbish opinions: OIC
Last edited by nitpicker330; 11th Sep 2009 at 05:46.
.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: N. America
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You're absolutely right Seldom. As long as the paychecks keep coming in, I'll spout the altimeter changeover 5 minute discussion, flap retraction brief, flap extention brief, gear retraction brief, or whatever else is required. I'm "fully ready".
Note: edited post before above reply.
Note: edited post before above reply.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: europe
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1.) the "owners" have absolutely no clue what is going on in the cockpit, hence they can't possibly have any say in what we should / should not do. Parts of the management have started their own little flying club with their own rules, nothing to do with what the " owners" want / don't want. It is arrogant and ridiculous of any trainer to think the way HE does it is the way the " owners" want him to be. Does anyone really think NR is happy about a 9 month upgrade course ,with all the costs involved ,and then, at the very end, a negative dubious star board decision ? Or would a shareholder = " owner" wonder weather it is rudder or rudders ?
2.) the " OIC mentality " is not very helpful, because it won't lead to any change, and sometimes it doesn't even help you. Albeit I agree that it is often the only viable short time solution.
3.) the problem is the inconsistency among the trainers ( read : the differences between the good guys and the anal c@nts). What the latter fabricate is a disgrace , the first group of fellow trainers even secretely admits that. I find it also very interesting that the " OIC " trainers are usually the weakest in terms of their own flying skills.
2.) the " OIC mentality " is not very helpful, because it won't lead to any change, and sometimes it doesn't even help you. Albeit I agree that it is often the only viable short time solution.
3.) the problem is the inconsistency among the trainers ( read : the differences between the good guys and the anal c@nts). What the latter fabricate is a disgrace , the first group of fellow trainers even secretely admits that. I find it also very interesting that the " OIC " trainers are usually the weakest in terms of their own flying skills.
Last edited by sisyphos; 12th Sep 2009 at 13:07.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pimper's paradise
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The OIC mentality is exactly what's wrong! Nothing shortcircuits standardization more than that stupid idea. I sure hope anyone who's feeling weak enough at this point in their career to feel the need to be mentored is at least smart enough to not follow the OIC crowd! The OIC mentality is the exact opposite of professionalism, self respect and self confidence. And it's true that the OIC types are always the weak ones when it comes to their overall performance in the cockpit. No matter which seat they're in, or how long they've been around. Or for that matter if they're checkers or trainers. If you establish a solid operation for yourself according to the SOPs (the book) you can call yourself a professional and feel like one... If you operate in the OIC manner, you'll always be acting, looking and feeling like the scared confused little sh!t you've chosen to be and nothing more!
A bit harsh I know, but the truth usually is!
A bit harsh I know, but the truth usually is!
Yes and I suppose you sit there shaking your head and tell the STC ( or BTC ) what they are saying is wrong and full of bollocks. I then expect you'd tell them the way they should be training/checking.
Maybe you'd get away with that as a Senior Captain but you wouldn't stand a hope in hell as a SO or FO. Unless the STC/BTC was a good man and listened to your polite reasoning. If he was a good man then he most likely wouldn't be telling you crap in the first place.
Just remember who is writing your ERAS and how much power that person has to ruin your whole career in CX.
Sad, unfortunate, but true.
Play the game.
If you want to really improve the training checking department then wait until you've become a STC or a BTC yourself and then have a go. Until then you are just pissing in the wind with all your bravado. At the very least you'll make a name for yourself amoungst the trainers and that is not good.
Maybe you'd get away with that as a Senior Captain but you wouldn't stand a hope in hell as a SO or FO. Unless the STC/BTC was a good man and listened to your polite reasoning. If he was a good man then he most likely wouldn't be telling you crap in the first place.
Just remember who is writing your ERAS and how much power that person has to ruin your whole career in CX.
Sad, unfortunate, but true.
Play the game.
If you want to really improve the training checking department then wait until you've become a STC or a BTC yourself and then have a go. Until then you are just pissing in the wind with all your bravado. At the very least you'll make a name for yourself amoungst the trainers and that is not good.
Trainers aren't normally just picked behind closed doors and then let out. They get assessed over 4 sectors by a STC in the jump seat, receive ground training and then receive extra training sectors. You know that as well as I do.
I spent years in the right seat here and didn't live in fear from the Check and Training Dept. I did my job as best I could and kept moving forward in the system.
Then I earned the left seat, something that being a Captain under probation ( ie FO ) prepared me for.
Yes CX isn't perfect, the books are not as good as they could be and some checkers have their own way.................I venture to suggest that 99% of all Airlines would be the same.
Move on...........this is getting boring.........
I spent years in the right seat here and didn't live in fear from the Check and Training Dept. I did my job as best I could and kept moving forward in the system.
Then I earned the left seat, something that being a Captain under probation ( ie FO ) prepared me for.
Yes CX isn't perfect, the books are not as good as they could be and some checkers have their own way.................I venture to suggest that 99% of all Airlines would be the same.
Move on...........this is getting boring.........
Last edited by nitpicker330; 14th Sep 2009 at 10:09.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HeavyWrenchFlyer
Whilst I don't necessarily disagree with you, I also don't accept things are that bad and I have seen real improvements in the past 2 years or so.
You seem to experiencing something different to me on the flight deck, so to help me visualize what you are experiencing, can you please give some examples of where;
1. The manuals, particularly the FCOM3/FCTM, is insufficient. Under what circumstances do you find vagueness or ambiguity?
2. What examples have you seen where a checker has operated in contravention of a published procedure.
Not sure what you mean by this....
"Do you realize there's no training given or standards to be met before becoming a trainer or checker here?!? One is somehow deemed fit somewhere behind closed doors and knighted..."
Apart from a thorough review of your file, possibly a training assessment flight by a Management pilot, then a Ground school/sim package then a number of sectors as a trainer-under supervision followed by a training check on a real stude.... then periodic standardization checks by Mangagement pilots/CAD (I observed one of these first hand and even my b@lls ached)... I suppose you are right there is no training or standardization.
If you object to the fact you have to be "liked" by the Fleet office, particularly the Chief Pilot, before you become a C&T, then I concede there is a large element of nepotism in the system..... but then again the buck stops with the Chief Pilot as regards Training Standards on his fleet, so can you blame him for personally scrutinizing his C&T staff.
You seem to experiencing something different to me on the flight deck, so to help me visualize what you are experiencing, can you please give some examples of where;
1. The manuals, particularly the FCOM3/FCTM, is insufficient. Under what circumstances do you find vagueness or ambiguity?
2. What examples have you seen where a checker has operated in contravention of a published procedure.
Not sure what you mean by this....
"Do you realize there's no training given or standards to be met before becoming a trainer or checker here?!? One is somehow deemed fit somewhere behind closed doors and knighted..."
Apart from a thorough review of your file, possibly a training assessment flight by a Management pilot, then a Ground school/sim package then a number of sectors as a trainer-under supervision followed by a training check on a real stude.... then periodic standardization checks by Mangagement pilots/CAD (I observed one of these first hand and even my b@lls ached)... I suppose you are right there is no training or standardization.
If you object to the fact you have to be "liked" by the Fleet office, particularly the Chief Pilot, before you become a C&T, then I concede there is a large element of nepotism in the system..... but then again the buck stops with the Chief Pilot as regards Training Standards on his fleet, so can you blame him for personally scrutinizing his C&T staff.
