What Are You Voting
Join Date: Mar 2007
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No to Cos 08, no to SLS.
Why, because for the past 3 months CX has been "negotiating" on bs whilst secretly planning to implement this the whole time. Anytime the mouth is open it is a lie.
Don't trust them, don't like them, and end at end of the the day I know I am a far better employee than any of our managers even if I don't sign for SLS.
How they can use loyalty and threaten there staff in the same sentence boarders on criminal. Where is the CAD,law when it comes to intimidation.
Young B-scale Captain.
Why, because for the past 3 months CX has been "negotiating" on bs whilst secretly planning to implement this the whole time. Anytime the mouth is open it is a lie.
Don't trust them, don't like them, and end at end of the the day I know I am a far better employee than any of our managers even if I don't sign for SLS.
How they can use loyalty and threaten there staff in the same sentence boarders on criminal. Where is the CAD,law when it comes to intimidation.
Young B-scale Captain.
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Every new manager wants to make a difference, and I expect to see a few new faces before I retire. They will either find another way to offer RA65 or the LAW will force them. I'll take my chances! NO/NO
SO/30's.
SO/30's.
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I would be great if this Thread had a couple of hundred of our guys writing in it. Unfortunately its the same names reappearing. Out of 2500 crew thought there would be more oppinions
I've seen it all before. Most people will sign, a % won't and their careers will go nowhere in CX. They have long memories, believe me I've experienced it first hand.
Sorry, but that's the way it's been over the years.
Do what's right for yourself and your family long term, It's the only way. Dont believe people when they tell you how they are going to vote
I've seen it all before. Most people will sign, a % won't and their careers will go nowhere in CX. They have long memories, believe me I've experienced it first hand.
Sorry, but that's the way it's been over the years.
Do what's right for yourself and your family long term, It's the only way. Dont believe people when they tell you how they are going to vote
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I am certainly leaning towards No at the moment, although it would be great to get a bit more info about all of this. You would think that the company had it all sorted before dropping this on us at least!
Join Date: Sep 2004
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For the older crew members...
Unless you are 54 and set to retire soon (like you had always planned) why don't you hold out, say NO to COS08 and force the company to come back with a better deal? It blows my mind that so many are willing jump at the first opportunity to do the same job for less than what they currently make.
CX will need RA65 once the economy rebounds and we go through another pilot shortage. Lets turn the table and make them give US something in good times rather than continually trying to take from us when times are tough.
Funny that the guys so quick to jump on us younger crew for joining on lesser conditions than they did are now the ones willing to sell their souls for a contract which is BAD for most crew members.
Unity!
CX will need RA65 once the economy rebounds and we go through another pilot shortage. Lets turn the table and make them give US something in good times rather than continually trying to take from us when times are tough.
Funny that the guys so quick to jump on us younger crew for joining on lesser conditions than they did are now the ones willing to sell their souls for a contract which is BAD for most crew members.
Unity!
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Funny that the guys so quick to jump on us younger crew for joining on lesser conditions than they did are now the ones willing to sell their souls for a contract which is BAD for most crew members.
The lesson in all of this is that we all live in glass houses, so maybe we should all put the rocks down and make sure that we look after the glass.
Join Date: Jul 2008
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This is the biggest F@$#%@$^ joke ever.
So you stay on COS 99 or you go 08 - who knows what happens to your housing - I don't. Who gets bypass - guys on base, guys in HKG? SO''s ? Who generates bypass - who doesn't?? What happens to freighter commands out of seniority?? Who has claim on a base? Unified FO - who gets it - when? Whats this clause about being fired for no reason? And this mumbling rambling about Captain 1 - 3 getting no incrememnt till its 5 % below some other pointless number?
Did they get the guy who designed Airbus ECAM messages to think this up??
These are all CLAIMED to be NEGOTIATED IN PRINCIPLE? What the F does that mean? Can I see the PAPER please where is written DOWN?
What am I signing up for when I tick a silly box in Crew direct?? I have NO CLUE. Neither does the AOA and neither does the company. We 'll just all make it up as we go along right?
Even the Zimbabwean government is more clear than this lot when they tell you what exactly they are taking off you!
I have never ever seen anything this unclear and ridiculous in my life. Lets just make decisions worth millions on the basis of the AOA forum and some GC member's speculative ramblings.....
I am sorry but my mouse is broken and I can't click a box till its all clear....
So you stay on COS 99 or you go 08 - who knows what happens to your housing - I don't. Who gets bypass - guys on base, guys in HKG? SO''s ? Who generates bypass - who doesn't?? What happens to freighter commands out of seniority?? Who has claim on a base? Unified FO - who gets it - when? Whats this clause about being fired for no reason? And this mumbling rambling about Captain 1 - 3 getting no incrememnt till its 5 % below some other pointless number?
Did they get the guy who designed Airbus ECAM messages to think this up??
These are all CLAIMED to be NEGOTIATED IN PRINCIPLE? What the F does that mean? Can I see the PAPER please where is written DOWN?
What am I signing up for when I tick a silly box in Crew direct?? I have NO CLUE. Neither does the AOA and neither does the company. We 'll just all make it up as we go along right?
Even the Zimbabwean government is more clear than this lot when they tell you what exactly they are taking off you!
I have never ever seen anything this unclear and ridiculous in my life. Lets just make decisions worth millions on the basis of the AOA forum and some GC member's speculative ramblings.....
I am sorry but my mouse is broken and I can't click a box till its all clear....
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Yokebearer, freighter commands are not "out of seniority" just because they are taken by someone lower on the seniority list than a passenger Captain. They are lower in seniority because they are less desirable. That is not "out of seniority." That is EXACTLY how seniority works at any airline: the less desirable, lower paid, crappier jobs go to those lower on the seniority list.
Stop propagating the use of this divisive term "out of seniority." It serves no beneficial purpose for the pilot group, only one for the company.
Stop propagating the use of this divisive term "out of seniority." It serves no beneficial purpose for the pilot group, only one for the company.
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Less desirable because the company makes it that way on purpose. Reality is you are still a captain on a B747-400 with CX. Passengers or freight...whats the difference? Pay should be the same...
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For FLAPS 10 and the "younger" crew members
3 wrong assumptions and you are not the only "youngster" that does it.
1. There are MANY B scalers approaching the magic age and to sign over to COS08 it is NOT a pay cut!
2. You will never force the company to come back with a better deal, it is there train set. You would no doubt have preferred all these pesky extendees to have been sacked, perhaps you will now get redundancies instead. Don't wish something on someone else it may happen to you.
3. I and, I am sure, many others did NOT plan on retiring at 55, why should we when we enjoy flying and don't give me the I should go and find a contract job somewhere, if you think that is a good career choice you can do it.
1. There are MANY B scalers approaching the magic age and to sign over to COS08 it is NOT a pay cut!
2. You will never force the company to come back with a better deal, it is there train set. You would no doubt have preferred all these pesky extendees to have been sacked, perhaps you will now get redundancies instead. Don't wish something on someone else it may happen to you.
3. I and, I am sure, many others did NOT plan on retiring at 55, why should we when we enjoy flying and don't give me the I should go and find a contract job somewhere, if you think that is a good career choice you can do it.
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Well said Iceman50.
"A scalers extended on their current terms"??? "Jobs for the boys"???
What's that all about??? Are there no B scalers in training? Are there no B scalers approaching 55 who want/need to work?
Just what is with some of you guys? Every pay cut suffered by A scalers is spun into some kind of sneaky conspiracy theory about the A scale conniving with the Company in some back room deal to stick it to the B scale.
Some of you guys need help...I mean really...enough!
Maybe after May 10th, when the B scale is alone at the top of the food chain...you'll have a better idea of what I mean. The A scale straw man disappears on May 10th!
Maybe, we can all finally grow up and put the whole A scale/B scale thing behind us, unify for goodness sake, and lobby as one. That's what's been missing from the AOA.
We need to unify and direct our valid complaints in the right direction, and not at each other.
Your call boys and girls!
"A scalers extended on their current terms"??? "Jobs for the boys"???
What's that all about??? Are there no B scalers in training? Are there no B scalers approaching 55 who want/need to work?
Just what is with some of you guys? Every pay cut suffered by A scalers is spun into some kind of sneaky conspiracy theory about the A scale conniving with the Company in some back room deal to stick it to the B scale.
Some of you guys need help...I mean really...enough!
Maybe after May 10th, when the B scale is alone at the top of the food chain...you'll have a better idea of what I mean. The A scale straw man disappears on May 10th!
Maybe, we can all finally grow up and put the whole A scale/B scale thing behind us, unify for goodness sake, and lobby as one. That's what's been missing from the AOA.
We need to unify and direct our valid complaints in the right direction, and not at each other.
Your call boys and girls!
Last edited by raven11; 24th Apr 2009 at 01:58.
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If morale was better and/or training paid better, we would have too many applicants instead of needing to extend guys just to keep the numbers up. I don't know who in management worked it out but it was quite clever of them to only offer pax terms to C+T extendees. The way things were going the 400 would have been almost 100% extendees for C+Ting in another couple of years - brilliant really. Terms and work so bad that only the truly dedicated or desparate take the job!
So it might look like an A scale conspiracy - its not. Its all about the company not being sued for age discrimination - if it wasn't for pesky BPP they would have done this ages ago. Now that the GFC has put fear and uncertainty into the minds of FO/SOs they will get a much higher uptake than they would have say a year ago. Ironically, the GFC and resultant slowdown will actually increase their BPP liability and so FO/SOs that sign over will be foregoing more now than if they had signed a year ago, based on conditions at the time!
Don't watch the hand with the knife(redundancies/SLS), watch the one slipping into your wallet pocket(BPP/B scales for 55+)
So it might look like an A scale conspiracy - its not. Its all about the company not being sued for age discrimination - if it wasn't for pesky BPP they would have done this ages ago. Now that the GFC has put fear and uncertainty into the minds of FO/SOs they will get a much higher uptake than they would have say a year ago. Ironically, the GFC and resultant slowdown will actually increase their BPP liability and so FO/SOs that sign over will be foregoing more now than if they had signed a year ago, based on conditions at the time!
Don't watch the hand with the knife(redundancies/SLS), watch the one slipping into your wallet pocket(BPP/B scales for 55+)
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The way I see it
For pilots approaching retirement (50ish+) who want to stay on - by all means sign up to CoS08 IF YOU ARE HAPPY WITH THAT DEAL.
For those of us not in that position, stay on CoS99. You will keep your existing conditions and entitlements, and Bypass pay will happen faster (due to all categories of pilots extending, not just C&T's).
It seems that we get a new iteration of CoS about every 5 years. If that is the case, by the time most of us come up to age 55, there should be a new CoS anyway - and I'll bet my leftie that age 65 retirement will form part of all future CoS change proposals. Anyone that believes that "this is a one time offer" needs their head read. That line was just put in to scare the borderline people into taking the new contract NOW. It also seems that it will eventually become Government legislation - again a win (per se), as you will be able to keep CoS99 to age 65! Easy decision for me to not sign up to CoS08.
SLS - I will be considering taking it based on what I believe is a well informed AOA GC recommendation. However, I will not take it until the last minute, after all negotiations and debate is finished.
For those of us not in that position, stay on CoS99. You will keep your existing conditions and entitlements, and Bypass pay will happen faster (due to all categories of pilots extending, not just C&T's).
It seems that we get a new iteration of CoS about every 5 years. If that is the case, by the time most of us come up to age 55, there should be a new CoS anyway - and I'll bet my leftie that age 65 retirement will form part of all future CoS change proposals. Anyone that believes that "this is a one time offer" needs their head read. That line was just put in to scare the borderline people into taking the new contract NOW. It also seems that it will eventually become Government legislation - again a win (per se), as you will be able to keep CoS99 to age 65! Easy decision for me to not sign up to CoS08.
SLS - I will be considering taking it based on what I believe is a well informed AOA GC recommendation. However, I will not take it until the last minute, after all negotiations and debate is finished.
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cos 99 without question (unless things change dramatically for COS 08).
SLS.....intend to, but wont sign til last minute.........3 weeks of salary is a sacrifice i am happy to make rather than face swires long memory at some stage.....and i think i will get it back, so hoping not a sacrifice
SLS.....intend to, but wont sign til last minute.........3 weeks of salary is a sacrifice i am happy to make rather than face swires long memory at some stage.....and i think i will get it back, so hoping not a sacrifice
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...it is there train set...
First of all, the "train set" is not theirs, it is a publicly traded company, so the train set technically belongs to shareholders - which includes me.
Second of all, the train doesn't move and is pretty much worthless without the employees that operate it, which also includes me, in the crucial role of knowing how the train operates to go from A to B.
Management is the least important piece of the puzzle. Keep in mind that if they disappeared tomorrow, the airline would keep operating for quite a few days before anyone would take notice. That is not the case for pilots, cabin-crew, engineers, airport handlers, drivers...etc.
And last, it is not a train set at all. A train set is a hobby, it does not generate revenue and is there just for show and entertainment. We provide an essential service and generate lots of revenue, not just for the company, but for HK in general.
So do me a favor and start putting things in perspective, assume a little responsibility and stand up straight. Remember that management is still responsible to the shareholders.