Relief crew rest
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Good post mephisto!
I'd almost forgotten ULH in the classic. Three pilots and two engineers. It truly was as you put it. To achieve the FDP you had to burn out the relief so that the other two pilots got adequate rest to extend the duty. The relief's FDP began at sign-on and ended approx 12 hours later. He was in the seat for a max of eight hours at one time, rested for an hour then back in the seat to an overall max of ten and a half hours!
Excellent closing para as well!
I'd almost forgotten ULH in the classic. Three pilots and two engineers. It truly was as you put it. To achieve the FDP you had to burn out the relief so that the other two pilots got adequate rest to extend the duty. The relief's FDP began at sign-on and ended approx 12 hours later. He was in the seat for a max of eight hours at one time, rested for an hour then back in the seat to an overall max of ten and a half hours!
Excellent closing para as well!
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Nice post 8888.....Some testosterone in your baby formula tonight?
You're suggesting that if real men like you were here, back in the day, you would not have stood for it...is that it?? You 8888 would have stormed into Noel Jone's office and slammed your baby fist on his desk, is that what you're suggesting? You would have demanded four pilots, three flight engineers, and A++ Scale is that it?
Gee, that's pretty rich 8888 considering it was you who "copped it good and proper" when you accepted the diluted and watered down employment conditions that you joined on...and not me!
So just who was bullied...and who's the Moron?
Am I being any more helpful now?
You're suggesting that if real men like you were here, back in the day, you would not have stood for it...is that it?? You 8888 would have stormed into Noel Jone's office and slammed your baby fist on his desk, is that what you're suggesting? You would have demanded four pilots, three flight engineers, and A++ Scale is that it?
Gee, that's pretty rich 8888 considering it was you who "copped it good and proper" when you accepted the diluted and watered down employment conditions that you joined on...and not me!
So just who was bullied...and who's the Moron?
Am I being any more helpful now?
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Technically 8888 is right on. He could have worded it different, but he makes a valid point.
Just because that is the way it used to be done, doesn't mean that it is correct. If that were the case, we would still be using NDBs and Sextants for navigation. I'm sure that there will be some yahoo posting how we should, but you can either move along with progress or just get run over by it.
I agree with Mephisto, there is only so much you can do. Schedule changes and people that don't check their e-mail might miss out, but there is only so much you can do. No-one is asking for mind reading here, so I think you understood what I was getting at in my previous post.
Just because that is the way it used to be done, doesn't mean that it is correct. If that were the case, we would still be using NDBs and Sextants for navigation. I'm sure that there will be some yahoo posting how we should, but you can either move along with progress or just get run over by it.
I agree with Mephisto, there is only so much you can do. Schedule changes and people that don't check their e-mail might miss out, but there is only so much you can do. No-one is asking for mind reading here, so I think you understood what I was getting at in my previous post.
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You're right 7700, he should have worded it differently.
The point people from "the dark ages" of fifteen years ago are making is that conditions have improved. Today we have four pilots sharing the rest instead of three, flying in a VHF and CPDLC environment. So those of us who are relics from the past can't help but be ammused at some of the whining we read here.
The captain will always pick his rest. That's just the way it is... And always will be. Most guys are fair and decent about it. A few are jerks. That too will never change.
The point people from "the dark ages" of fifteen years ago are making is that conditions have improved. Today we have four pilots sharing the rest instead of three, flying in a VHF and CPDLC environment. So those of us who are relics from the past can't help but be ammused at some of the whining we read here.
The captain will always pick his rest. That's just the way it is... And always will be. Most guys are fair and decent about it. A few are jerks. That too will never change.
I agree, although those duties on the classic sound like a "mission" there's little point in comparing apples to oranges. If I understand correctly, those where the days of the 7 day long haul patterns, and lower monthly hours. i.e. far more sleep opportunities down route. As opposed to around 24hrs or less off down route. Added to this the loss of 5,4,3 protection and ( in busy times) 3 days off between long hauls became the norm.
Having been RQ on the 400 for 5 years it gets to the point of how many nights sleep can I 'lose' in a month and still function!
Yeah I know ..... " harden the F**k up "
The upside being I've only got 8 or so more years of RQ to look forward to before a command comes up
.
I also agree that some European skippers seem to be the least cognitive of the body clock time of the relief crew. I wish I had a euro for every time I have been working through my circadian low while the skipper is in the back having " dinner and a movie ", on what for him is mostly a daytime flight. It's not everyone, some guys are outstanding at arranging rest, others, not so much.
What would be nice is if CX could add another page to crew direct, where the skipper/crew could input the rest they would like/expect. So that you at least know before hand that you're in for the short straw! This could perhaps 'stick' to the flight, so that if a crew member is changed they can still see what the plan is?
Having been RQ on the 400 for 5 years it gets to the point of how many nights sleep can I 'lose' in a month and still function!
Yeah I know ..... " harden the F**k up " The upside being I've only got 8 or so more years of RQ to look forward to before a command comes up
.I also agree that some European skippers seem to be the least cognitive of the body clock time of the relief crew. I wish I had a euro for every time I have been working through my circadian low while the skipper is in the back having " dinner and a movie ", on what for him is mostly a daytime flight. It's not everyone, some guys are outstanding at arranging rest, others, not so much.
What would be nice is if CX could add another page to crew direct, where the skipper/crew could input the rest they would like/expect. So that you at least know before hand that you're in for the short straw! This could perhaps 'stick' to the flight, so that if a crew member is changed they can still see what the plan is?
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Buggs,
That's a good suggestion - why not post it on the JRC page in Crew Direct for consideration when the AOA and Management reps meet in their next monthly meeting. At the very least, you'll receive a reply from DS .
That's a good suggestion - why not post it on the JRC page in Crew Direct for consideration when the AOA and Management reps meet in their next monthly meeting. At the very least, you'll receive a reply from DS .
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Agreed, the e-mail system is a great way to get everyone on the same page leading up the flight. I use it on almost every leg. Ninety-plus percent of the time, it seems appreciated and definitely leads to less tension in the cockpit. If people don't bother checking e-mail beforehand, that's not my problem. I give a short briefing when we board and reiterate that I sent the e-mail and what the schedule is.
In terms of what the schedule should or shouldn't be, I guess we all have our own viewpoint. It's true there are some CN's who remember being FO's and others who don't. I personally do and try to be fair to the other three. Having said that, it's my airplane and my responsibility to have both myself and the flying FO alert after 12+ hours in the air. I have a formula that seems to work relatively well. Example - HKG/LAX: 12:30 block; I usually work the first 2:00, 2:00 off, 2:30 on, 4:45 off; 1:15 on. That's just how I prefer it, but I also don't adopt an attitude if someone wants a slight variation. I try to be fair but will admit I do occasionally shaft the SO and am apt to give them a 6:00 - 7:00 block in the middle if I feel it's needed for everyone else to be rested(particularly on "shorter" ULH's). I know some of you think that's unfair but a) they're young(!), b) they have 0-50 ULH's in their system so far and c) they only do it for 2-3 years. I started as an SO here when I was 24...you can do anything when you're 24. After 400+ ULH turns, talk to me then.
As someone said, just be patient. Your time will come and while it seems like a long time, you spend a ton more years here as a CN than any other seat...or at least you used to (another subject for another day).
In terms of what the schedule should or shouldn't be, I guess we all have our own viewpoint. It's true there are some CN's who remember being FO's and others who don't. I personally do and try to be fair to the other three. Having said that, it's my airplane and my responsibility to have both myself and the flying FO alert after 12+ hours in the air. I have a formula that seems to work relatively well. Example - HKG/LAX: 12:30 block; I usually work the first 2:00, 2:00 off, 2:30 on, 4:45 off; 1:15 on. That's just how I prefer it, but I also don't adopt an attitude if someone wants a slight variation. I try to be fair but will admit I do occasionally shaft the SO and am apt to give them a 6:00 - 7:00 block in the middle if I feel it's needed for everyone else to be rested(particularly on "shorter" ULH's). I know some of you think that's unfair but a) they're young(!), b) they have 0-50 ULH's in their system so far and c) they only do it for 2-3 years. I started as an SO here when I was 24...you can do anything when you're 24. After 400+ ULH turns, talk to me then.
As someone said, just be patient. Your time will come and while it seems like a long time, you spend a ton more years here as a CN than any other seat...or at least you used to (another subject for another day).
Last edited by 744Cap; 10th Apr 2009 at 02:47.
Pajamas Blues . . .
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Grow a pair
The Relief Crew take what they are given. You are been paid to give rest to the front seat drivers. Can't hack it? Then quit! If anything we are too kind to the Relief Crew, since the AOA has managed to get us up to 900 hours from 700 we are less safe than in the past.
Hell yes, why don't the relief crew just get in the seat at 10 grand, and get out of the seat at 10 grand! Easy really! 
While we're at it why don't we just sh!t can the operating sectors for the RQ guys, we're operating on the absolute bare legal minimum of annual landings anyway, that can't be the safest option can it! 
Yeah I know.... wait your turn.... and harden the fu*k up
While we're at it why don't we just sh!t can the operating sectors for the RQ guys, we're operating on the absolute bare legal minimum of annual landings anyway, that can't be the safest option can it! Yeah I know.... wait your turn.... and harden the fu*k up
