SCMP article re: local v expat terms
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: asia
Posts: 947
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Someone asked why I did'nt complain about my COS because I'm B scale..................bloody simple really, they told me what I was going to be getting at the interview and I was happy with it, so now I will only complain if what they told me I was getting is taken away, is that simple enough. If you cadets or locals ( sorry I offended someone by calling them a local, touchy mob are'nt ya ) make that indigenous hong kong inhabitants, are not getting what you were originally told then whinge your hearts out, you have a case.
Funnily enough, when ( or if ) I am here for 7 years, and if I apply for perm HKID, my family, friends, grass, wide open spaces, relatively cheap housing and clean air do not automatically all move to Hong Kong....or do they. ( cool, if they do )
The fact that I will then have a few rights that I don't have now changes nothing WRT the fact I AM NOT FROM FRIGGING HONG KONG
Any indigenous hong kong inhabitants are welcome to move to, for instance, Australia ( I actually worked with one guy who did this ) and instantly get the exact same conditions as everyone else, around $40,000HKD a month with any LCC or as an S/O with QF, How much do you guys get again ?
Hong Kong is certainly not all bad, but I and most of my expat ( I am really offended by being called expat, gweilo etc, please refer to me as a indigenously challenged inhabitant ) colleagues have given up a lot to move here, and we would not be doing it for nothing, as has already been mentioned, supply and demand, is anyone silly enough to think CX/KA would pay us what they do if they did'nt have to ?? Do you really think they like us that much ??
The best argument of all, and one I did not think of is that nobody on a base gets a housing allowance, so I don't think you guys have a leg to stand on.
Funnily enough, when ( or if ) I am here for 7 years, and if I apply for perm HKID, my family, friends, grass, wide open spaces, relatively cheap housing and clean air do not automatically all move to Hong Kong....or do they. ( cool, if they do )
The fact that I will then have a few rights that I don't have now changes nothing WRT the fact I AM NOT FROM FRIGGING HONG KONG
Any indigenous hong kong inhabitants are welcome to move to, for instance, Australia ( I actually worked with one guy who did this ) and instantly get the exact same conditions as everyone else, around $40,000HKD a month with any LCC or as an S/O with QF, How much do you guys get again ?
Hong Kong is certainly not all bad, but I and most of my expat ( I am really offended by being called expat, gweilo etc, please refer to me as a indigenously challenged inhabitant ) colleagues have given up a lot to move here, and we would not be doing it for nothing, as has already been mentioned, supply and demand, is anyone silly enough to think CX/KA would pay us what they do if they did'nt have to ?? Do you really think they like us that much ??
The best argument of all, and one I did not think of is that nobody on a base gets a housing allowance, so I don't think you guys have a leg to stand on.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: The Casbah
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EngineOut, it can't be denied how many 'expats' there are in this company who are now permanent HKID holders. I'm not pointing out that there should be a reduction in CoS upon attaining one either, far from it. What I'm trying to highlight is the level playing field that the situation becomes when one's naturalisation status becomes that of a resident. How does that make someone who joined the company with a HKID different to someone who attains it later, when he/she does?
BusyB, I wouldn't be able to tell you about the voting rights of someone who gets permanent residency after his/her 7 years here vs. someone born here, but I think govt. voting rights aren't all that valid in this debate, seeing as the focus is more on how the change in status affects what public services you would have to pay for as an expat vs. being a local. Interesting point though, I was under the impression that all permanent residents were eligible to vote. Not that voting for puppet regimes gets anyone anywhere quick.
Hoofharted, settle down. No need to call anyone a liar...or lawyer, if it's the truth we're misrepresenting. Leave that label for management where it is deserved.
The crux of the matter is in the equality of living conditions that locals are able to afford as opposed to their expat counterparts. LEPS recognise that the expat package is designed to afford anyone coming in from overseas a lifestyle similar to the one that they get home. Consider though, that depending on where you come from, this varies significantly. Someone from the Dales would probably have had a much more affordable lifestyle than someone from NYC. But the expat package does not make that distinction, everyone gets the same deal when they come here, and that's the way it should be. Now, personally I do recognise that on a base, people are shed of their benefits and are paid a basic salary commensurate with the living standards of the country that they live in. And so the argument goes that in HKG, a HKG local should be afforded pay which reflects a general living standard of where they come from, because that's where they are expected to live out their remaining days. Ok.
Now, to transpose the same standard of review, if someone from S.A. came to HKG to work, does their basic pay reflect that they come from a country where you can afford a 5 bedroom house on proper acreage for the price of a mid level flat? Or that someone who comes from LON could only afford, by comparison, a small semi detatched for the same amount? Coming to HKG removes all of those distinctions. Regardless of where you come from, here in HKG you will all be given, depending on how smart you handle your money, enough to have 2000 odd sq ft in an area not bordering China or Macau.
What I'm trying to get at is that whatever base you are on, surely it's only fair for everyone living there that they should be able to afford a similar lifestyle. Is it right that a LEP only be able to afford 1000 sq ft in Sham Tseng when someone from abroad of exactly the same rank and file can afford double that or more in idyllic Sai Kung, with 2.4 kids, 2 club memberships and all the while paying off a house which maybe they'll go back to, or maybe they won't, depending on how they feel. Can anyone really justify that as being fair? I would be interested in hearing anyone's thoughts proceeding a yes or no answer.
For me though, the most disturbing aspect is how in these forums, there are individuals purpoting to say that if they could change things to put LEPS on a package similar to their own, and in the same blurb start making justifications about how locals should remain locals, or leave, or other such remarks. Guys, all we are trying to do is make a plight for better terms and conditions just like anyone else. Just like anyone unhappy with their lot, there will be complainers, there will be whiners, but more importantly there will be people trying to make a difference. The last people that we would have ever expected abrasion from are our fellow workers, though it seems that we can expect little help from some as well, as they have made their feelings known about how we should deserve our lot.
BusyB, I wouldn't be able to tell you about the voting rights of someone who gets permanent residency after his/her 7 years here vs. someone born here, but I think govt. voting rights aren't all that valid in this debate, seeing as the focus is more on how the change in status affects what public services you would have to pay for as an expat vs. being a local. Interesting point though, I was under the impression that all permanent residents were eligible to vote. Not that voting for puppet regimes gets anyone anywhere quick.
Hoofharted, settle down. No need to call anyone a liar...or lawyer, if it's the truth we're misrepresenting. Leave that label for management where it is deserved.
The crux of the matter is in the equality of living conditions that locals are able to afford as opposed to their expat counterparts. LEPS recognise that the expat package is designed to afford anyone coming in from overseas a lifestyle similar to the one that they get home. Consider though, that depending on where you come from, this varies significantly. Someone from the Dales would probably have had a much more affordable lifestyle than someone from NYC. But the expat package does not make that distinction, everyone gets the same deal when they come here, and that's the way it should be. Now, personally I do recognise that on a base, people are shed of their benefits and are paid a basic salary commensurate with the living standards of the country that they live in. And so the argument goes that in HKG, a HKG local should be afforded pay which reflects a general living standard of where they come from, because that's where they are expected to live out their remaining days. Ok.
Now, to transpose the same standard of review, if someone from S.A. came to HKG to work, does their basic pay reflect that they come from a country where you can afford a 5 bedroom house on proper acreage for the price of a mid level flat? Or that someone who comes from LON could only afford, by comparison, a small semi detatched for the same amount? Coming to HKG removes all of those distinctions. Regardless of where you come from, here in HKG you will all be given, depending on how smart you handle your money, enough to have 2000 odd sq ft in an area not bordering China or Macau.
What I'm trying to get at is that whatever base you are on, surely it's only fair for everyone living there that they should be able to afford a similar lifestyle. Is it right that a LEP only be able to afford 1000 sq ft in Sham Tseng when someone from abroad of exactly the same rank and file can afford double that or more in idyllic Sai Kung, with 2.4 kids, 2 club memberships and all the while paying off a house which maybe they'll go back to, or maybe they won't, depending on how they feel. Can anyone really justify that as being fair? I would be interested in hearing anyone's thoughts proceeding a yes or no answer.
For me though, the most disturbing aspect is how in these forums, there are individuals purpoting to say that if they could change things to put LEPS on a package similar to their own, and in the same blurb start making justifications about how locals should remain locals, or leave, or other such remarks. Guys, all we are trying to do is make a plight for better terms and conditions just like anyone else. Just like anyone unhappy with their lot, there will be complainers, there will be whiners, but more importantly there will be people trying to make a difference. The last people that we would have ever expected abrasion from are our fellow workers, though it seems that we can expect little help from some as well, as they have made their feelings known about how we should deserve our lot.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: No Fixed Abode
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
sirhcttarp - absolutely. If you become an expat you should get expat terms.
Mullah - So you want to be compensated for your place of birth/abode? I don't believe that anyone would have anything against people trying to improve their lot in life. If you can do so, then go for it you would have my and many others support. But don't pull this discrimination bllsht when it is quite simply a case of an expat allowance versus living at home, for the 3rd time, nobody else on a home base gets an expat allowance (a point you continue to ignore). Lets not confuse you personal aspirations with CX cos.
Mullah - So you want to be compensated for your place of birth/abode? I don't believe that anyone would have anything against people trying to improve their lot in life. If you can do so, then go for it you would have my and many others support. But don't pull this discrimination bllsht when it is quite simply a case of an expat allowance versus living at home, for the 3rd time, nobody else on a home base gets an expat allowance (a point you continue to ignore). Lets not confuse you personal aspirations with CX cos.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mullah,
I think you are misinterpreting what others are saying. I think just about everyone in the aircrew body would be happy if you guys got some form of housing allowance. What everyone is going on about is that you guys signed up as locals, knowing what the CoS were, and are now complaining that you don't get expat benefits.
I've said it before, but you guys would not have been offered a cadet program at all if it cost the company the same to employ you as the 3-4000 hour DESO. The cadet program is there to save the company money. If it did not, then there would be no cadet program and you would not have this job at all.
You took advantage of the fact, that as a 'local' you could join the cadet program (which is not available to foreigners), and all the benefits that has: no cost to you and 200 hours in your logbook flying a wide-body with a stable job with a stable income but now turn around and want expat benefits as well. Your plight about living conditions should have been calculated when you signed up and you knew what salary you would earn and hence what living standards you could afford. You guys signed up for it.
Experienced or no experience, the crux of the argument still remains; you are not an expat.
Your argument is in line with me demanding A-scale, when I signed up for B-scale. The guy I sit next to is does the same job as me but he is A-scale and therefore gets paid more. Or consider that some A-scale FOs earns more than than some B-scale Captains in the left hand seat, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either. But that's what they signed up for.
The fact is CX/KA need to pay a premium for expat packages to attract people they need to move here and give up their homelands/lifestyle/family/friends. If they didn't they wouldn't get the bums on seats they need. You guys are locals and are therefore not moving away from your homeland/lifestyle/family/friends. If the salary you signed up for is not enough for your lifestyle, get another job. Simple.
I think you are misinterpreting what others are saying. I think just about everyone in the aircrew body would be happy if you guys got some form of housing allowance. What everyone is going on about is that you guys signed up as locals, knowing what the CoS were, and are now complaining that you don't get expat benefits.
I've said it before, but you guys would not have been offered a cadet program at all if it cost the company the same to employ you as the 3-4000 hour DESO. The cadet program is there to save the company money. If it did not, then there would be no cadet program and you would not have this job at all.
You took advantage of the fact, that as a 'local' you could join the cadet program (which is not available to foreigners), and all the benefits that has: no cost to you and 200 hours in your logbook flying a wide-body with a stable job with a stable income but now turn around and want expat benefits as well. Your plight about living conditions should have been calculated when you signed up and you knew what salary you would earn and hence what living standards you could afford. You guys signed up for it.
Experienced or no experience, the crux of the argument still remains; you are not an expat.
Your argument is in line with me demanding A-scale, when I signed up for B-scale. The guy I sit next to is does the same job as me but he is A-scale and therefore gets paid more. Or consider that some A-scale FOs earns more than than some B-scale Captains in the left hand seat, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either. But that's what they signed up for.
The fact is CX/KA need to pay a premium for expat packages to attract people they need to move here and give up their homelands/lifestyle/family/friends. If they didn't they wouldn't get the bums on seats they need. You guys are locals and are therefore not moving away from your homeland/lifestyle/family/friends. If the salary you signed up for is not enough for your lifestyle, get another job. Simple.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 672
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is interesting to note that whenever this LEP debate comes up in these forums that people start saying "well thats what you signed when you joined" etc...
Unfortunately the same argument applies for things like payrises and everything else that is in our COS which we are arguing to have amended/updated/improved. of course, there are plenty of things in the COS the company does not stick to anyway which is another story!
Unfortunately the same argument applies for things like payrises and everything else that is in our COS which we are arguing to have amended/updated/improved. of course, there are plenty of things in the COS the company does not stick to anyway which is another story!
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: TD
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EO
"I've said it before, but you guys would not have been offered a cadet program at all if it cost the company the same to employ you as the 3-4000 hour DESO. The cadet program is there to save the company money. If it did not, then there would be no cadet program and you would not have this job at all. "
FYI, yes, cadet program does saved the company in the long term, therefore we have a cadet program; however, the main reason why CX started a cadet program was to show people from HK that they're returning something to the local community (offering flying opportunity). If the main reason was cost saving, they would have sponser more cadets, having over 100 cadets down in ADL at a time like CAL.
"I've said it before, but you guys would not have been offered a cadet program at all if it cost the company the same to employ you as the 3-4000 hour DESO. The cadet program is there to save the company money. If it did not, then there would be no cadet program and you would not have this job at all. "
FYI, yes, cadet program does saved the company in the long term, therefore we have a cadet program; however, the main reason why CX started a cadet program was to show people from HK that they're returning something to the local community (offering flying opportunity). If the main reason was cost saving, they would have sponser more cadets, having over 100 cadets down in ADL at a time like CAL.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: The Casbah
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hoofharted, I haven't ignored the base pay issue. Read my previous post. I am advocating for lifestyle parity wherever people live, i.e. those in LAX should be living in similar conditions, those on LON base should be living in similar condition, HKG etc. My personal aspirations? No need to make me sound like an ambitious shylock, but if that is what you believe fits the description of someone trying to argue for equal living conditions, I happily accept. With regards to your other point, I'm not saying that I feel the need to be compensated for my place of birth/abode, but I would hesitate to say the same for you. In fact that point serves to highlight what the spirit of the expat package is about. It's about giving you something similar to what you would have received at home. Without the benefits as great as they are, you would be living like a good deal of the LEPS do, i.e. in small apartments in more mundane locations. Fundamentally because you insist that locals are locals and therefore deserve local scales, you therefore insist that we deserve to live in average conditions in HKG whilst people doing exactly what we do deserve to live better. I fail to see a) the parity b) the empathy c) the humanity but I as hell see the hypocrisy. So how about I make a deal with you. We beg to differ, I stop harping on about discrimination (which up until now, I have never even used the word but I'll go off of what you say) and you stop interspersing the debate with your fundamentalist views on what constitutes local and expatriate. And I would wager a bet that you have a permanent HKID card too, just like me.
EngineOut, I take your points to heart but I must disagree. I do understand the economic basis of the existence of the cadet program. Every company's bottom line is the dollar, we all know that. i've already addressed the point about service rendered to compensate for initial training costs so I won't touch upon that again. But my arguments do not teeter on making as much money in hand as you guys do, merely that I believe since we all live in HKG, we should all be living to a similar standard. This thing about 'we all know what we signed up for', it keeps getting thrust back in the LEPS ears with a steel brush. We know that. If the company doesn't tell us about it, the other aircrew do....right after we acknowledge it ourselves over and over again. I agree that there are complainers who ought to put their words into action but it's not about that as much as it's about a prevailing sentiment amongst those who feel that it's acceptable for LEPS to live worse off than people from abroad....because hey...we're from HKG, that's how hongers live. So I ask again....for the 3rd, 4th or 5th time (can't remember): does anyone really think it's fair? So far no one has been inclined to answer that one.
One thing I do have to bring up though, is something you mention about a stable job with a stable income ad infinitum. Trying to keep this job with 200 hours under your belt, having to learn everything in the same space it would take someone who has years of experience under their belt doing something of this nature, has very little stable element to it. I hope you can see it from that perspective.
<Experienced or no experience, the crux of the argument still remains; you are not an expat.> So we've come back to that one again. Alright, as apples are apples and as a corollary by definition, neither is anyone else with a permanent HKID card. Because that makes you ...... a Honger.
ACMS.....best thing that's been said in this entire thread.
EngineOut, I take your points to heart but I must disagree. I do understand the economic basis of the existence of the cadet program. Every company's bottom line is the dollar, we all know that. i've already addressed the point about service rendered to compensate for initial training costs so I won't touch upon that again. But my arguments do not teeter on making as much money in hand as you guys do, merely that I believe since we all live in HKG, we should all be living to a similar standard. This thing about 'we all know what we signed up for', it keeps getting thrust back in the LEPS ears with a steel brush. We know that. If the company doesn't tell us about it, the other aircrew do....right after we acknowledge it ourselves over and over again. I agree that there are complainers who ought to put their words into action but it's not about that as much as it's about a prevailing sentiment amongst those who feel that it's acceptable for LEPS to live worse off than people from abroad....because hey...we're from HKG, that's how hongers live. So I ask again....for the 3rd, 4th or 5th time (can't remember): does anyone really think it's fair? So far no one has been inclined to answer that one.
One thing I do have to bring up though, is something you mention about a stable job with a stable income ad infinitum. Trying to keep this job with 200 hours under your belt, having to learn everything in the same space it would take someone who has years of experience under their belt doing something of this nature, has very little stable element to it. I hope you can see it from that perspective.
<Experienced or no experience, the crux of the argument still remains; you are not an expat.> So we've come back to that one again. Alright, as apples are apples and as a corollary by definition, neither is anyone else with a permanent HKID card. Because that makes you ...... a Honger.
ACMS.....best thing that's been said in this entire thread.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: The Casbah
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An SAR passport entitles you to political and diplomatic representation. A permanent HKID card entitles you to all the social services that any HKID holder is entitled to. Please don't say that a passport would make a difference to our CoS. This debate is contrived enough as it is.
Last edited by Mullah Lite; 26th Feb 2009 at 05:22.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: No Fixed Abode
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
O.K so in a nutshell you want:
1. Free training
2. A salary while you are training
3. A guaranteed job when you complete your training
4. Not prepared to move away to find work
5. Sacrifice nothing in terms of being away from family and friends, however;
6. An expat package to compensate you for not being an expat
7. Re-write the agreement you signed when you first applied for the job
It may be convenient to "ignore the fundamentals" but that only goes to the heart of the issue. That is exactly why there is a pay difference and exactly why you choose to ignore it, as your argument collapses if you acknowledge the reason for the difference.
In a utopian world we would all be living in paradise. (nope, don't have a permanent card). Anyway, good luck to you with whatever you do.
1. Free training
2. A salary while you are training
3. A guaranteed job when you complete your training
4. Not prepared to move away to find work
5. Sacrifice nothing in terms of being away from family and friends, however;
6. An expat package to compensate you for not being an expat
7. Re-write the agreement you signed when you first applied for the job
It may be convenient to "ignore the fundamentals" but that only goes to the heart of the issue. That is exactly why there is a pay difference and exactly why you choose to ignore it, as your argument collapses if you acknowledge the reason for the difference.
In a utopian world we would all be living in paradise. (nope, don't have a permanent card). Anyway, good luck to you with whatever you do.
Last edited by Hoofharted; 26th Feb 2009 at 06:29.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: The Casbah
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hoofharted, allow me to respond following your point format:
1) Free training: not at all. We recognise our financial obligation to the company for training us. What is fair would be making us pay back with numbers of years of service, but to put us on an essentially half-payscale for the duration of an entire CX career just isn't kosher.
2) A salary while we are training: we receive as much training at this airline just as you do. Otherwise you imply that we are being held to a different standard every time we have an RT/PC. We don't receive salaries down in ADL either, although there is a monthly allowance of a whopping AUD 400 per month.
3) A guaranteed job when you complete your training: The only time that the job becomes a guaranteed offer is after we come back to HKG to sign the CX contract which then gives us a seniority number. Completion of the cadet course is in itself not a guarantee of employment. It's interesting to note that DE guys sign and receive seniority + pay before heading down to ADL to complete JTS and their CAD exams. Locals have to pass everything first. Another slight difference to note, and not in the locals favour either.
4) Not prepared to move away and find work: Actually I happen to be one of those lucky enough to have options once I have requisite hours and as I've said before, I have looked around and I know that so have others. I would caution the assumption that locals who have the ability to go elsewhere haven't thought about it. Personally I don't believe in keeping my eggs in one basket and it still remains an open decision. But my concerns also reflect the situations of those who don't have such options. The suggestion earlier, I forget which post, that someone with nothing other than an SAR passport can just up and leave for Aus is a nice idea, but the reality of the situation is such that the red tape would be a vastly difficult hurdle to negotiate. Why not though, if it's an option, try to change the status quo rather than turn a blind eye at the dilemma. I believe that this is the central tenet of the LEPS endeavours with regards to negotiating better T's and C's and surely they have the right to put that foot forward.
5) Sacrifice nothing in terms of family and friends: There are a lot of local guys who are away from family and friends when they come here. And there are locals whose family and friends have moved away. But a moot point if we are talking about financial remuneration I think...unless you need extra money to deal with the emotional distress of separation? I don't think the expat package was designed to take psychological matters into account.
6) I've never specified 'an expat package' in any of my arguments. What you receive is enough to live well here and have enough in pocket to build a parallel life wherever it is you come from. Two for the price of one. What we receive is enough to live like an average honkie here. Without building assets anywhere else. Half for the price of one. I am advocating for a lifestyle for locals that our expat counterparts receive whilst living here in HKG, I'm not asking for a package to build an empire overseas, which by comparison you guys are able to do. Or at least a little fiefdom.
7) Re-write the agreement you signed when you first applied for the job: I think geh065's post reflects my sentiment as well for this answer. Would you not argue for a contract which reflects inflationary rises year after year? The numbers in your contract are fixed integer values. 20 years down the road, those numbers are going to be worth less because economics are dynamic. Your housing agreement reflects market values. We only have those contractual numbers. The nuances of our arguments are subtle at times, but over the course of a lifetime career at CX/KA (if we choose to stay), the effects can accrue into something significant.
Thank you for your good wishes and I hope this sheds some light from the local perspective but something tells my spidey sense that we will continue to differ in opinion. And isn't that what makes sure the world isn't boring.
Lite
1) Free training: not at all. We recognise our financial obligation to the company for training us. What is fair would be making us pay back with numbers of years of service, but to put us on an essentially half-payscale for the duration of an entire CX career just isn't kosher.
2) A salary while we are training: we receive as much training at this airline just as you do. Otherwise you imply that we are being held to a different standard every time we have an RT/PC. We don't receive salaries down in ADL either, although there is a monthly allowance of a whopping AUD 400 per month.
3) A guaranteed job when you complete your training: The only time that the job becomes a guaranteed offer is after we come back to HKG to sign the CX contract which then gives us a seniority number. Completion of the cadet course is in itself not a guarantee of employment. It's interesting to note that DE guys sign and receive seniority + pay before heading down to ADL to complete JTS and their CAD exams. Locals have to pass everything first. Another slight difference to note, and not in the locals favour either.
4) Not prepared to move away and find work: Actually I happen to be one of those lucky enough to have options once I have requisite hours and as I've said before, I have looked around and I know that so have others. I would caution the assumption that locals who have the ability to go elsewhere haven't thought about it. Personally I don't believe in keeping my eggs in one basket and it still remains an open decision. But my concerns also reflect the situations of those who don't have such options. The suggestion earlier, I forget which post, that someone with nothing other than an SAR passport can just up and leave for Aus is a nice idea, but the reality of the situation is such that the red tape would be a vastly difficult hurdle to negotiate. Why not though, if it's an option, try to change the status quo rather than turn a blind eye at the dilemma. I believe that this is the central tenet of the LEPS endeavours with regards to negotiating better T's and C's and surely they have the right to put that foot forward.
5) Sacrifice nothing in terms of family and friends: There are a lot of local guys who are away from family and friends when they come here. And there are locals whose family and friends have moved away. But a moot point if we are talking about financial remuneration I think...unless you need extra money to deal with the emotional distress of separation? I don't think the expat package was designed to take psychological matters into account.
6) I've never specified 'an expat package' in any of my arguments. What you receive is enough to live well here and have enough in pocket to build a parallel life wherever it is you come from. Two for the price of one. What we receive is enough to live like an average honkie here. Without building assets anywhere else. Half for the price of one. I am advocating for a lifestyle for locals that our expat counterparts receive whilst living here in HKG, I'm not asking for a package to build an empire overseas, which by comparison you guys are able to do. Or at least a little fiefdom.
7) Re-write the agreement you signed when you first applied for the job: I think geh065's post reflects my sentiment as well for this answer. Would you not argue for a contract which reflects inflationary rises year after year? The numbers in your contract are fixed integer values. 20 years down the road, those numbers are going to be worth less because economics are dynamic. Your housing agreement reflects market values. We only have those contractual numbers. The nuances of our arguments are subtle at times, but over the course of a lifetime career at CX/KA (if we choose to stay), the effects can accrue into something significant.
Thank you for your good wishes and I hope this sheds some light from the local perspective but something tells my spidey sense that we will continue to differ in opinion. And isn't that what makes sure the world isn't boring.
Lite
Join Date: May 2006
Location: The Casbah
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sirhcttarp
Don't know how long you've been on the line for but I've found that there is such a variation of thought on the LEP matter. Some support it, most are apathetic and a few downright oppose it. I enjoy engaging in the debate but I am not holding my breath relying on a change in legislation. Large corporations have amazing way of finding loopholes so it's going to be a long fight my friend. Funny enough, I'm still waiting to hear a yes or no answer from anyone about my question in previous posts on lifestyle parity.
Don't know how long you've been on the line for but I've found that there is such a variation of thought on the LEP matter. Some support it, most are apathetic and a few downright oppose it. I enjoy engaging in the debate but I am not holding my breath relying on a change in legislation. Large corporations have amazing way of finding loopholes so it's going to be a long fight my friend. Funny enough, I'm still waiting to hear a yes or no answer from anyone about my question in previous posts on lifestyle parity.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Tung Chung
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not a single KA local Captain left during the mass exodus of last year. Something like 12% of KA Captains resigned. A startling figure which helped improve the package.
I don't believe KA local Captains were particularly active in the industrial campaign.
Good luck to the guys but don't expect me to go out on a limb. I did that before and helped get you your special allowance!
I don't believe KA local Captains were particularly active in the industrial campaign.
Good luck to the guys but don't expect me to go out on a limb. I did that before and helped get you your special allowance!
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Earth
Age: 49
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In KA we do have local term none locals, guys who were either PRs or had grown up in HK because of family commitments.
We often associate local to be chinese in HK, which just aint true.
However, if we become more specific and say a local chinese or local caucasian, south asian etc and stop being so politically correct
The are an increasing number of local chinese getting promotion to the LHS in KA and many more to follow as they gain the experience.With the current freeze on command training, these guys will jump ahead of their more 'experienced' juniors in time, as many are quite senior now.
There does however, seem to be a bias towards reducing the total experience levels for these candidates, below the mandatory 5000. It certainly happened last year, with one guy comencing CT @ 3600 hours.The training manager does have an asian wife (formerly his DH), as do many of KA managers/senior trainers.But im impliying nothing here of course.
HK Chinese pilots will not become involved industrially, will never stick their necks out, they leave that for the crazy gweilos. They do like to sharpen their knives in private, not on the DPA website.
We often associate local to be chinese in HK, which just aint true.
However, if we become more specific and say a local chinese or local caucasian, south asian etc and stop being so politically correct
The are an increasing number of local chinese getting promotion to the LHS in KA and many more to follow as they gain the experience.With the current freeze on command training, these guys will jump ahead of their more 'experienced' juniors in time, as many are quite senior now.
There does however, seem to be a bias towards reducing the total experience levels for these candidates, below the mandatory 5000. It certainly happened last year, with one guy comencing CT @ 3600 hours.The training manager does have an asian wife (formerly his DH), as do many of KA managers/senior trainers.But im impliying nothing here of course.
HK Chinese pilots will not become involved industrially, will never stick their necks out, they leave that for the crazy gweilos. They do like to sharpen their knives in private, not on the DPA website.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Mid Levels
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HK Chinese pilots will not become involved industrially, will never stick their necks out, they leave that for the crazy gweilos. They do like to sharpen their knives in private, not on the DPA websit
Not entirely correct. 3 local boys left KA last year and went to Oasis. Although it did not last long, but they still did something about it.
I have flown with all three of them, on both the Airbus and Boeing fleets, and I can assure you,they are all very good operators. Two of them even paid for their own training, did their time in GA, and had foreign passports.
They were given local terms due to the fact that they have Asian faces. What they did not know when they signed the contract is that KA have hired pilots who were born in HK, raised and educated in HK, have a permanent HKID, but are Caucasian..
Not entirely correct. 3 local boys left KA last year and went to Oasis. Although it did not last long, but they still did something about it.
I have flown with all three of them, on both the Airbus and Boeing fleets, and I can assure you,they are all very good operators. Two of them even paid for their own training, did their time in GA, and had foreign passports.
They were given local terms due to the fact that they have Asian faces. What they did not know when they signed the contract is that KA have hired pilots who were born in HK, raised and educated in HK, have a permanent HKID, but are Caucasian..
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: HK- A little bit of industrial China in every breath you take.
Posts: 508
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Locals, KA is your 'GA'. It is where you gain experience, until you can get a good job.
In saying that, I do see merit in same pay once you meet the experience requirements that the expats are being hired under, maybe a progressive transfer to the full package as you gain experience, levelling to the full b scale package once you pass the command. Ironically, that time coincides with you having the experience to apply elsewhere. Market forces should determine what you do. I think your arguement for equal conditions missed its opportunity to succeed by about a year and a half. The closest we ever got to the 'pilot shortage' we all dream about, (that never comes) was 18 months ago. The best chance you had was when the DPA was 'negotiating'. No membership, no voice. Form your own association maybe? Not such a stupid idea, but smarter to be active in the one we already have. Once upon a time B scalers were outnumbered in the association, now they run it. Locals need to see the benefit of weight in numbers, not hiding behind clenched teeth smiles, seething with resentment for expats. Your energy should be focussed on the company that enforces the agreements. At the end of the day, no ones hand was forced to sign a substandard agreement, it doesn't make it right that it was offered in the first place, the same could be said about the offering of b scale.
While our managers are paid based on how much they can screw out of you, (bonus based on savings made) dont expect results anytime soon.
In saying that, I do see merit in same pay once you meet the experience requirements that the expats are being hired under, maybe a progressive transfer to the full package as you gain experience, levelling to the full b scale package once you pass the command. Ironically, that time coincides with you having the experience to apply elsewhere. Market forces should determine what you do. I think your arguement for equal conditions missed its opportunity to succeed by about a year and a half. The closest we ever got to the 'pilot shortage' we all dream about, (that never comes) was 18 months ago. The best chance you had was when the DPA was 'negotiating'. No membership, no voice. Form your own association maybe? Not such a stupid idea, but smarter to be active in the one we already have. Once upon a time B scalers were outnumbered in the association, now they run it. Locals need to see the benefit of weight in numbers, not hiding behind clenched teeth smiles, seething with resentment for expats. Your energy should be focussed on the company that enforces the agreements. At the end of the day, no ones hand was forced to sign a substandard agreement, it doesn't make it right that it was offered in the first place, the same could be said about the offering of b scale.
While our managers are paid based on how much they can screw out of you, (bonus based on savings made) dont expect results anytime soon.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: The Casbah
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting to hear the KA perspective. There was also a case in CX where an individual was given expat terms and then downgraded to local terms after the company found out about his ties to HKG. Years later he walked into his fleet office after they called him in to discuss his command upgrade and handed in his resignation letter the same day. An absolute legend with balls of steel. Incidentally he was Chinese.
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: FL510
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was born in HK, emigrated overseas when I was a kid and now holding a foreign passport. Did my time in GA and airlines. KA offered me a local contract just because I hold a HKID despite:
1. I paid for my own trainig.
2. I have experience similar to other expats.
3. I am away for 10+ years, with no family and not having a place to live in HK.
I voted with my feet. Got a job across the Pearl River estuary. Probably not a wise decision in terms of job security but I know I am doing the right thing.
Hmmm... it may not be so bad after all - lower cost of living, lower tax and much shorter time to command.
1. I paid for my own trainig.
2. I have experience similar to other expats.
3. I am away for 10+ years, with no family and not having a place to live in HK.
I voted with my feet. Got a job across the Pearl River estuary. Probably not a wise decision in terms of job security but I know I am doing the right thing.
Hmmm... it may not be so bad after all - lower cost of living, lower tax and much shorter time to command.