Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Fragrant Harbour
Reload this Page >

KA Integration project update

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

KA Integration project update

Old 26th Jan 2009, 12:52
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 8
Post KA Integration project update

Integration is going well; and we have just reached the advance stages of integrating KA with CX. To recap:

1. There are no more KA staff apart from Flight Crew and Cabin Crew. Why? For AOC retention purposes only;

2. We are at the final stages of wrapping up the KA freighter fleet;

3. KA 'puppet' CEO's and GMO's weekly updates on now plagiarized versions of CX CEO and GMO/GMA updates respectively. For those who have not noticed, please read previous weekly updates or in fact start reading both respective airline updates to see the distinct similarities. KA managers are title holders only for AOC retention purposes and have no longer have any say in the runnings of KA;

4. CX SOPs are gradually being introduced. We plan to rid of KA SOPs and Ops manuals by the end of this year. Our final aim is to have CX operating all routes, through KA as a virtual airline if required on specific PRC routes. This will be achieved by obtaining a dispensation from the CAD, so that we can cross crew between 2 airlines;

5. If we are unable to acquire the CAD dispensation, we will plan to drop all our secondary PRC routes apart from Hangzhou, which will obtain slots for CX aircraft. We have now replaced some prime time PVG slots with CX aircraft. We will soon replace KA aircraft with CX aircraft on PEK routes as well. This is an on going project; and

6. On the marketing front, with have gradually reduced KA signages in PRC and increased CX signages to further increase the awareness of the CX brand in PRC.

The next step:

Once we the airlines have one set of SOPs and Ops manuals we plan to integrate the KA operating crew into CX.

We do not favour one pilot group over the other. As we have done in the past with ASL (in 2000 and 2008) and recently with KA, we will offer CX employment (COS 08 at this stage although this will be superseded if COS09/10 is introduced) to the remaining KA flight crew. Each flight crew will retain their rank and remain on their current fleet and join on the bottom of the common Aircrew Officers Seniority list. KA seniority will be retained for Staff travel benefits and expatriation purposes only.

Those who do not wish to join CX will be offered voluntary severence pay.
integrationmanager is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2009, 13:04
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: N.A.
Posts: 40
Get a life. This has been done to death already.
dogleg is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2009, 08:10
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: right here
Posts: 13
It might have been done before as conjecture but it is absolutely spot on in reality.

KA Cargo is gone as of last month with all crew re-integrated back into HKG pax fleet or taking "Voluntary severance"

KA house is deserted except for Ops staff,

Have just recieved edict from our CX indoctrinator that the CTWO plus briefing structure is now to be used,

this is all ahead of the 1 July introduction of CX SOP's into KA airbus fleet,

Any denial that KA is on it's way out was taken care of 2 days ago by the announcement that CX is adding 3 daily services to PVG replacing KA services and in line with the previously announced return of 2 KA A330s this year to the lessors,

and still "KA is a strong brand that will remain in China blah blah blah"!!

I think KA pilots ought to consider the next 2 years as paid job search.The writing is on the wall.
kay lo dee is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2009, 10:18
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 26
On the contrary dogleg, this subject is only just getting started.

The Dragonair 747 guys have been well and truly done over and the Airbus crew are slowly starting to realise how the incremental changes are affecting their career progression, job security and benefits. The anger and resentment, relatively muted up until now, is rising rapidly.

Soon there will be 400 Dragon pilots who are experienced, well qualified and well trained, all using Cathay SOP’s. Once this happens it is only a matter of time before they will be flying Cathay Airbus’s. I think it is fair to say that most Dragon crew look forward to this prospect even less than Cathay crew, but we need to face up to the reality.

Some form of integration will occur and the respective pilots groups have to start discussing a suitable solution. We need to do so before an entirely unsatisfactory company solution is imposed upon us all.

Snide comments are not going to help.
Midnight Oil is offline  
Old 28th Jan 2009, 01:19
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: asia
Posts: 950
Yep, a couple of the above posts just confirm why I never have/never will want to be a CX skygod
I feel sorry for the good blokes there.
Take China, I'm over it, operating half empty 330s into FOC,HGH,SYX,XMN,CTU,NGB et al will go hand in hand with your managements wonderful fuel hedging abilities
hongkongfooey is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2009, 08:22
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Earth
Age: 46
Posts: 66
Many in KA Airbus felt reasonably comfortable about the demise of the KA 747/744 fleets, as not a big issue.However, the returning crews, shrinking route structure and overmanning situation is having profound implications on F/O upgrades. The latest I heard rumoured from overhearing 2 mouthy manager types was at least 5 years, give or take. Therefore many F/Os would have done 9 years in KA before a stab at command. Isnt this what CX offers ?

Therefore KA has become CX
trevfly is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2009, 12:21
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Underside
Posts: 65
Trev
The difference being, I'd feel alot more secure about my future job prospects being an F/O in Cx.

FX
Feather Boa is offline  
Old 29th Jan 2009, 13:16
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: 'round here
Posts: 394
Therefore many F/Os would have done 9 years in KA before a stab at command. Isnt this what CX offers ?
Wow, only 9 years at KA? In the good old days at CX maybe.

Currenty running at 14 yrs and expected to average out around 16 years over the next decade.
stillalbatross is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2009, 00:28
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: No Fixed Abode
Posts: 205
16 years ??????????? You oughta be faarken good at making bunks after that long.
Hoofharted is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2009, 08:36
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: asia
Posts: 950
Some pretty tough talk from some of the above posts, considering you have what, 9 pay scales, DECs, DEF/Os ???
Seems to me CX will do whatever the they like, so you be good little CX pilots and do what you're told
hongkongfooey is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2009, 10:18
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 57
Posts: 6
KRONE

Your wrong KA still operate as HDA with Dragon Flight number and call sign on 1 freighter to PVG
Drag_on_and_on_Air is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2009, 10:30
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: York International
Posts: 626
Wet Lease

Yes Dragster, but paperwork is underway for those flights to be wet leased to CX, i.e. operated by CX with KA callsign. Then it will be bye bye the last freighter and welcome back on the Bus A Scalers.
Fly747 is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2009, 17:12
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 46
Reality check

Some constructive comments, some not so. No one can really know what the Swire managers have timetabled for the integration.

The only smart ass remarks I see are from the ex HKA guys. Remember it was a take over, not a merger so I guess you'll be the ones who do what your told..

Enjoy China
Cronus is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2009, 23:19
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 59
Over the fence at KA we are fully aware that, ultimately, we will be 'doing what we are told' but what we find just a little amusing is that with CX's history of divide and conquer the CX fellas may not like where that takes us. Did I read 9 different pay scales? Hence the need for the AOA/DPA to present a mutually accepted and sensible merged seniority system before one is imposed upon us that not only divides us all bitterly but in the process castrates our collective bargaining ability. We are all on the same team aren't we?
8888 is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2009, 00:00
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 258
yep, we are all on the same team.

Right up until the point where we realize that we are being done over - and we will - then we will realize we are on very different teams.

Been there done that and got the tee shirt. these things always end in tears, especially considering the collapse has only just begun.

Good luck.
AnQrKa is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2009, 06:51
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: asia
Posts: 950
Enjoy China
Enjoy tax and low pay
hongkongfooey is offline  
Old 1st Feb 2009, 11:40
  #17 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 8
A330 integration

When we bought KA back in 2006, our main aim was maximise the synergies between the two airlines as well as maximise returns from the two airlines. As part of the Swire tradition we have carried out this out steadfastly and rather quickly.

We have integrated all KA office staff into CX and we have recently integrated the KA freighter fleet, rather effortlessly and obstacle free. Although we believed that the KA Pilot group had a case against us with reference to TUPE, we have prove again that we can circumvent the legislations and the law and get away with it.

Despite some COS obstacles, our next step is to integrate the KA A330 fleet into CX.

Just to recap the current situation, we have an identical aircraft type within the Cathay Pacific Group operated by 2 different pilot group. This presents alot of inflexibility, a does not bide well with our "maximising synergy concept because:

1. The KA A330 fleet is under utilised, especially at night;

2. Both A330 fleets are undermanned hence some last minute cancellation of flights at KA occuring frequently, and last minute redeployment of different aircraft type at CX where the A330 would have been optimal;

3. Just to expand on point 2, integrating the KA A330 fleet will remove the current 'costly' constraint of a number of aircraft and pilots being essentially only able to operate China routes. With this constraint removed we would've solved the undermanning issue even if its temporary. Less pilots are required per aircraft due to the increased flexibility, which upmost importantly means Reduced Cost, and achieving great financial returns which goes hand in hand with our 'New Vision'.

Having stating the obvious today, the next update will consist of how we will integrate the 2 pilot groups, COS issues (which we will circumvent or plainly ignore) and discuss the A320 and KA AOC retention in more detail.

I wish you all a pleasant week.


Integration Manager
integrationmanager is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2009, 11:41
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Earth
Age: 46
Posts: 66
2x A330 returning to ILFC, 19 Captains arriving from the B744/747, to be split evenly between A320/330, and KA are overmanned? Not to mention the consolidation of PEK/PVG into primarily CX routes, with a few KA flights (not next week, but its happening).

We then have 1 x 744 operating a skeleton service to PVG/TPE crewed by some of HKs highest earning pilots. How efficient. Anyway, once this operation is closed, there will be a further 4 A scale Captains, 2 HK report captains and 2 B scale "managers" to be integrated onto the Airbus fleet. Not to mention the B747 donkey manager, who seems to still be residing on the 2nd floor, sucking his over inflated ego ,(err I mean thumb)

Overmanned ?, ha ha pull the other one
trevfly is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2009, 13:04
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Earth
Age: 46
Posts: 66
Good point, Tsimsey. However, by closing the 744 operation, and moving the remaining guys to Airbus, we at have a chance that the "A" scalers may at least sling their hook,and pi$$ off... the Airbus really is "a peice of sh1t" as they so love to tell everyone.

An A scaler leaving before they have to, haha we all know the answer to that.

However, the company should terminate the 2 A scalers who they kept on after retirement age, for training purposes. They recently terminated 15 B scale trainers on the Airbus, so go figure this one.

I for one will NOT be taking unpaid leave OR part time job share or whatever other genius solutions our blinkered management come up with next.
trevfly is offline  
Old 3rd Feb 2009, 15:40
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: London
Posts: 9
Integration managers says -- KA manager title holders are for AOC purposes only and 'do not have a say', now we 'circumvent the legislation'. Is all this stuff legal ?
BIMBO HIMONASHI is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.