AOA funding of UK retirement age appeal
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Stillborn
Do us all a favour Buddy..........Quit......you are such a dill you probably wouldn't make command anyway. I wouldn't let you ride a tricycle let alone a shiny big jet. No COS in CX has been set in stone, you are about to be educated in that fact. The world progresses and matures.........something I doubt you will.
Oh Stillborn....
You couldn't be more wrong,but that would be par for your course, wouldn't it.
You give the impression that you believe the world owes you a living, putting you bang in the middle of the "I want it all and I want it now!" generation.
Just for one minute take yourself out of your little world of cosseted delusion and have a look around, times change so does commerce and so does the law. These things have to happen. It's called progress.
By the way, what will your total time to a CX command be since entering the world of professional aviation? For me it was 22 years.
What is your background. Does it involve putting yourself in harm's way, every day? Does it involve stretches of 4 months away from your family in places you'd really rather not be? Does it involve people who's sole intention is to ensure that you don't EVER make it back to see your loved ones?
Mmmmmm, I suspect not.
Why do you go out of your way to give the impression that this evil plot is designed around screwing you? There are many reason's why the older guys want to stay, amongst which are the need (or even desire) for more money and the unwillingness to give up a job they enjoy. But to suggest, as you did yesterday, that it is just to spite you is ridiculous in the extreme. Why don't you consider for just one minute those few who started out again later in life than is the norm. They possibly have children to support. But you are trying to belittle them into giving up a job that will pay for those young kids just so that you can have a shot at the LHS.
Your battle-cry is that you are being discriminated against. You are actually doing yourself no favours what-so-ever.
You couldn't be more wrong,but that would be par for your course, wouldn't it.
You give the impression that you believe the world owes you a living, putting you bang in the middle of the "I want it all and I want it now!" generation.
Just for one minute take yourself out of your little world of cosseted delusion and have a look around, times change so does commerce and so does the law. These things have to happen. It's called progress.
By the way, what will your total time to a CX command be since entering the world of professional aviation? For me it was 22 years.
What is your background. Does it involve putting yourself in harm's way, every day? Does it involve stretches of 4 months away from your family in places you'd really rather not be? Does it involve people who's sole intention is to ensure that you don't EVER make it back to see your loved ones?
Mmmmmm, I suspect not.
Why do you go out of your way to give the impression that this evil plot is designed around screwing you? There are many reason's why the older guys want to stay, amongst which are the need (or even desire) for more money and the unwillingness to give up a job they enjoy. But to suggest, as you did yesterday, that it is just to spite you is ridiculous in the extreme. Why don't you consider for just one minute those few who started out again later in life than is the norm. They possibly have children to support. But you are trying to belittle them into giving up a job that will pay for those young kids just so that you can have a shot at the LHS.
Your battle-cry is that you are being discriminated against. You are actually doing yourself no favours what-so-ever.
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What is your background. Does it involve putting yourself in harm's way, every day? Does it involve stretches of 4 months away from your family in places you'd really rather not be? Does it involve people who's sole intention is to ensure that you don't EVER make it back to see your loved ones?
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MaxReheat, "I have the lead", let me have a go.
Dragon69
Is your vocabulary limited to profanity? I suggest for starters that you stop listening to rap.
Your posts remain childish and immature (off the Ridelin?). You too need to get some serious "time in"! Post on Facebook for a while.....give us a break.
I've been in this business for 35 years, both military and commercial background prior to Cathay, and will not be sworn at by a child.
Loopdeloop, excellent last post...I'll give your points some thought.
Max Reheat...excellent method of comparing apples to apples. Time to "widebody command". My total time to wide body commnand was 27 years.
Only a guess, mind you, but I bet that I've been flying almost as long as Dragon's been alive!
Dragon69
Is your vocabulary limited to profanity? I suggest for starters that you stop listening to rap.
Your posts remain childish and immature (off the Ridelin?). You too need to get some serious "time in"! Post on Facebook for a while.....give us a break.
I've been in this business for 35 years, both military and commercial background prior to Cathay, and will not be sworn at by a child.
Loopdeloop, excellent last post...I'll give your points some thought.
Max Reheat...excellent method of comparing apples to apples. Time to "widebody command". My total time to wide body commnand was 27 years.
Only a guess, mind you, but I bet that I've been flying almost as long as Dragon's been alive!
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I've been in this business for 35 years, both military and commercial background prior to Cathay, and will not be sworn at by a child.
Max Reheat...excellent method of comparing apples to apples. Time to "widebody command". My total time to wide body commnand was 27 years.
Dragon 69,
Really.... give up. I'm sure you must have better things to do (though it would appear that I don't)!!!
You are not going to win an argument against the likes of your current adversaries. You can shout and stamp your feet all you want but it will do you no good.
By the way, we have all fronted up, how many years do you have in professional aviation? And I mean 'professional'?
I strongly suspect that Raven is not far off the mark!
Really.... give up. I'm sure you must have better things to do (though it would appear that I don't)!!!
You are not going to win an argument against the likes of your current adversaries. You can shout and stamp your feet all you want but it will do you no good.
By the way, we have all fronted up, how many years do you have in professional aviation? And I mean 'professional'?
I strongly suspect that Raven is not far off the mark!
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So Rambo what daring and dangerous missions have you been on today. 
Yes because you and your buddies posts are full of logic, intellect and intelligence.....NOT!
This is a forum, you think I am going to believe any numbers that are thrown to manipulate and justify your argument, get real, would rather believe a used car salesman.
You are not going to win an argument against the likes of your current adversaries. You can shout and stamp your feet all you want but it will do you no good.
This is a forum, you think I am going to believe any numbers that are thrown to manipulate and justify your argument, get real, would rather believe a used car salesman.
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Dragon
Assuming you have at least mastered the three times table by now, do the math genius!! For those of us approaching 55, and assuming we started flying in our late teens or early twenties, that equates to 35 years of flying.
Your reluctance to tell us your experience reveals how wet behind the ears you really are and, once again, says all we need to know about you.
Aptitude Test? I got mine from men with names like Jones, Thompson, and Dybal. Who gave you yours?
Now go back to facebook. Come back when you get some real time in!
Assuming you have at least mastered the three times table by now, do the math genius!! For those of us approaching 55, and assuming we started flying in our late teens or early twenties, that equates to 35 years of flying.
Your reluctance to tell us your experience reveals how wet behind the ears you really are and, once again, says all we need to know about you.
Aptitude Test? I got mine from men with names like Jones, Thompson, and Dybal. Who gave you yours?
Now go back to facebook. Come back when you get some real time in!
Last edited by raven11; 24th Feb 2009 at 10:29.
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Raven
Your intellect closely matches that of the bird you represent.
FYI I am already captain no need to get some "time in".
What am I supposed to be awed by your 35 years of experience versus my 25. You don't show any respect toward your younger colleagues who have a genuine concern about potentially being stuck in the RHS for significantly longer than they were anticipating. Instead you criticize and belittle them by baffoon like logic and you expect respect in return. You've been riding the gravy train and are too greedy to let it go. So no I don't listen to rap and I don't even know what facebook is, what I do know though is how disappointing some of my colleagues have turned out to be.
Your intellect closely matches that of the bird you represent.
FYI I am already captain no need to get some "time in".
What am I supposed to be awed by your 35 years of experience versus my 25. You don't show any respect toward your younger colleagues who have a genuine concern about potentially being stuck in the RHS for significantly longer than they were anticipating. Instead you criticize and belittle them by baffoon like logic and you expect respect in return. You've been riding the gravy train and are too greedy to let it go. So no I don't listen to rap and I don't even know what facebook is, what I do know though is how disappointing some of my colleagues have turned out to be.
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I see we have reached a new pathetic low on this thread.
How can anybody compete with the "mine is bigger than yours, so there" (I think that is the equivalent of who has the most hours in an aeroplane or time in CX argument). Some of you guys are sounding really desperate which is surprising since you keep stating that RA65 is all but done and dusted. If you are so confident, why are you bothering to go on about it on PPrune. Deep down I think you are very concerned that you will be shown the door at 55 which seems very likely at the moment. Bleating on about it here will have no impact on the decision which will be made by management for business reasons only. i.e if they are short of crew than you are looking good, if they are overmanned then not so good. Counting on the lawyers to save you is a weak hand.
And by the way, my experience is that those who bang on most about their time in the service are often those who are the most insecure about it. They tend to have little if any operational experience on the two way range and probably spent most of their time warming an office chair or showing the bograts how it's done in the training circuit. They are also the loudest spuikers in the bar. Meanwhile the SAS guy over in the corner with three tours under his belt sips his beer so quietly you wouldn't even know he was there let alone what he has done.
As someone else said, show some grace and dignity befitting your age and seniority.
How can anybody compete with the "mine is bigger than yours, so there" (I think that is the equivalent of who has the most hours in an aeroplane or time in CX argument). Some of you guys are sounding really desperate which is surprising since you keep stating that RA65 is all but done and dusted. If you are so confident, why are you bothering to go on about it on PPrune. Deep down I think you are very concerned that you will be shown the door at 55 which seems very likely at the moment. Bleating on about it here will have no impact on the decision which will be made by management for business reasons only. i.e if they are short of crew than you are looking good, if they are overmanned then not so good. Counting on the lawyers to save you is a weak hand.
And by the way, my experience is that those who bang on most about their time in the service are often those who are the most insecure about it. They tend to have little if any operational experience on the two way range and probably spent most of their time warming an office chair or showing the bograts how it's done in the training circuit. They are also the loudest spuikers in the bar. Meanwhile the SAS guy over in the corner with three tours under his belt sips his beer so quietly you wouldn't even know he was there let alone what he has done.
As someone else said, show some grace and dignity befitting your age and seniority.
Last edited by SFGDOG; 24th Feb 2009 at 13:00.
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I just don't get it..
If the company extends guys anyway ( they even offer classic cpts already(!) on extension a course on the 400 now!) , how on earth would an official RA65 change much regarding time to command ??
O.K., BBP is a factor, but isn't the security to have a job beyond 55 worth much much more? Are you guys aware how much money you will need in case you retire with 55 to live on comfortably for another 20 to possibly 40 years ??? If you have a younger wife/ kids to support, from what will they live after you made your final take off ? What if you or a family member gets ill/ you divorce/ you suffer from stock market decline/ real estate bubble/godknowswhat ? What if Canada or Britain decide to let people pay for health service at some point in the future? What about changes regarding capital gain tax ?
I have the strong suspicion that there is simply a lack of realistic judgement regarding the amount of money needed among those in favour of RA55 ( e.g. a million $ 20 years ago is now worth less than a third in todays money, and that excludes the astronomical rise in real estate in some areas of the world). What if we enter a phase of hyper inflation at some point in the future?
With the current regulation all those F/O 's suffering from the status quo ( high percentage of 55y old guys on individual extensions anyway) risk to get send home when THEY turn 55 with absolutely nothing!
If the company extends guys anyway ( they even offer classic cpts already(!) on extension a course on the 400 now!) , how on earth would an official RA65 change much regarding time to command ??
O.K., BBP is a factor, but isn't the security to have a job beyond 55 worth much much more? Are you guys aware how much money you will need in case you retire with 55 to live on comfortably for another 20 to possibly 40 years ??? If you have a younger wife/ kids to support, from what will they live after you made your final take off ? What if you or a family member gets ill/ you divorce/ you suffer from stock market decline/ real estate bubble/godknowswhat ? What if Canada or Britain decide to let people pay for health service at some point in the future? What about changes regarding capital gain tax ?
I have the strong suspicion that there is simply a lack of realistic judgement regarding the amount of money needed among those in favour of RA55 ( e.g. a million $ 20 years ago is now worth less than a third in todays money, and that excludes the astronomical rise in real estate in some areas of the world). What if we enter a phase of hyper inflation at some point in the future?
With the current regulation all those F/O 's suffering from the status quo ( high percentage of 55y old guys on individual extensions anyway) risk to get send home when THEY turn 55 with absolutely nothing!
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Dragon
Your right about one thing, respect is a two way street.
You sir, need a lesson in balance. Do us all a favour and reread your posts, pay particular attention to your tone and use of insults and profanity, and then seriously ask yourself if your not being a tiny bit hypocritical lecturing anyone on respect. Or, am I being an idiotic buffoon, exhibiting birdbrain logic in just asking you to do this.
Kitsune
Why should I be allowed to extend my contract? Well, I suppose, for one, because it is in my contract...as long as BPP is payed; and because it's been going on for years; and, because I want to. As I said it IS in the contract! Whats more I, like most of us, enjoy what I do, am good at it, and am not ready to retire mentally, or financially. I have a family to feed and support. I've worked hard here, and in good faith. Is that greed?
No, I did not get my Command here in three years. Following the introduction of ASL, it took me 10 years as an F/O, and a total 27 years of flying. Does that make me a pig at the trough? I think not.
After all the changes, degradations, and cuts to my groups COS over the years, I for one would like an acknowledgment of that fact, instead of the vile (and yes Dragon, child-like) attacks I've read here. Apart from being paid as per the contract people signed on, many of the attackers on this thread have never felt a single cut or degradation in their COS.
Now I ask you both, why must you and others characterize my groups need to work as selfishness? Are our families any less deserving? If you both are who you say you are, many of the men you slag here probably trained you along the way. Is this how you show your gratitude...and respect?
Kitsune you accuse me of an agenda. Non other that to avoid that swinging lamp you want me to injure myself on, and engage in a civil debate.
I'll stop transmitting now, and listen for a while (unless my cage gets rattled).
Your right about one thing, respect is a two way street.
You sir, need a lesson in balance. Do us all a favour and reread your posts, pay particular attention to your tone and use of insults and profanity, and then seriously ask yourself if your not being a tiny bit hypocritical lecturing anyone on respect. Or, am I being an idiotic buffoon, exhibiting birdbrain logic in just asking you to do this.
Kitsune
Why should I be allowed to extend my contract? Well, I suppose, for one, because it is in my contract...as long as BPP is payed; and because it's been going on for years; and, because I want to. As I said it IS in the contract! Whats more I, like most of us, enjoy what I do, am good at it, and am not ready to retire mentally, or financially. I have a family to feed and support. I've worked hard here, and in good faith. Is that greed?
No, I did not get my Command here in three years. Following the introduction of ASL, it took me 10 years as an F/O, and a total 27 years of flying. Does that make me a pig at the trough? I think not.
After all the changes, degradations, and cuts to my groups COS over the years, I for one would like an acknowledgment of that fact, instead of the vile (and yes Dragon, child-like) attacks I've read here. Apart from being paid as per the contract people signed on, many of the attackers on this thread have never felt a single cut or degradation in their COS.
Now I ask you both, why must you and others characterize my groups need to work as selfishness? Are our families any less deserving? If you both are who you say you are, many of the men you slag here probably trained you along the way. Is this how you show your gratitude...and respect?
Kitsune you accuse me of an agenda. Non other that to avoid that swinging lamp you want me to injure myself on, and engage in a civil debate.
I'll stop transmitting now, and listen for a while (unless my cage gets rattled).
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Raven,
I think most people have no problem with extendees as per the current contract. Good luck to them and the company if it's a win-win. I think though the problem some of us have is with those that advocate a change to our COS to RA-65 without the appropriate compensation for the junior crew effected. The snag is that in the current environment the company would appear to have no interest in any deal which costs them one cent. It will therefore be difficult then to overcome this until the economy picks back up and CX is yet again caught short of crew and the AOA has some negotiating leverage. I think it is just rotten luck if you are approaching 55 at this point in time or were hoping to have an extension renewed. But I also don't believe for a second that SO's and FO's (particularly those with a family) who are counting on that promotion just to escape the poverty trap should be the ones to make a sacrifice for that rotten luck. It's a myth to think that all these guy's are single and in there 20's. Many have joined in their 30's and some even in their early 40's, some after 15-20 years in the military, GA or airlines. Many would not have bothered if they were forewarned that it could take 15 to 20 years to command because RA-65 was about to be introduced. So it's a bit late to expect that they should voluntarily take such a huge knock on the chin without the appropriate compensation.
Sure, maybe it will be imposed sometime in the future but I can't see many wanting to sign away their COS earlier because of a "maybe". And if there is a sign or be fired contract offered then that will be a decision for each officer to make with their family. I for one decided long ago that I would take my chances and refuse if that ever happens and have planned accordingly. I like my job but it is just a job and I refuse to allow myself to be bullied. Period.
I think most people have no problem with extendees as per the current contract. Good luck to them and the company if it's a win-win. I think though the problem some of us have is with those that advocate a change to our COS to RA-65 without the appropriate compensation for the junior crew effected. The snag is that in the current environment the company would appear to have no interest in any deal which costs them one cent. It will therefore be difficult then to overcome this until the economy picks back up and CX is yet again caught short of crew and the AOA has some negotiating leverage. I think it is just rotten luck if you are approaching 55 at this point in time or were hoping to have an extension renewed. But I also don't believe for a second that SO's and FO's (particularly those with a family) who are counting on that promotion just to escape the poverty trap should be the ones to make a sacrifice for that rotten luck. It's a myth to think that all these guy's are single and in there 20's. Many have joined in their 30's and some even in their early 40's, some after 15-20 years in the military, GA or airlines. Many would not have bothered if they were forewarned that it could take 15 to 20 years to command because RA-65 was about to be introduced. So it's a bit late to expect that they should voluntarily take such a huge knock on the chin without the appropriate compensation.
Sure, maybe it will be imposed sometime in the future but I can't see many wanting to sign away their COS earlier because of a "maybe". And if there is a sign or be fired contract offered then that will be a decision for each officer to make with their family. I for one decided long ago that I would take my chances and refuse if that ever happens and have planned accordingly. I like my job but it is just a job and I refuse to allow myself to be bullied. Period.
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sisyphos - What you suggest sounds sensible but the following is the way most F/Os and S/Os look at it:
If the company stops extending then they will get a command sooner (better job), a choice of base sooner (better life) and proper Command salary as against BPP (more money).
Balanced against this is the possibility that they may not be able to stay with CX beyond 55.
Of course they may well get an extension themselves when they get to 55 or RA65 may be with us by then. They will also probably be able to find another job if it isn't, or they may wish to retire when they get there.
On balance, if you were an F/O or S/O in say your 30s, which would you pick right now?
I keep reading that the youngsters are short sighted for not wanting RA65 and it simply isn't true. Pilots are generally good at evaluating delayed reward and on balance, depending on your seniority, age and whether you prefer to be in Hkg or on a base, the scales tip in favour of RA55 right now for most junior crew.
The quandary for me is that I fly with a lot of great guys who are over or approaching 55 who I'd like to continue to work with, which is why I keep banging on about reaching a negotiated deal with the company on retirement age to replace the current crappy system we have whereby the company selects those it wishes to keep.
If the company stops extending then they will get a command sooner (better job), a choice of base sooner (better life) and proper Command salary as against BPP (more money).
Balanced against this is the possibility that they may not be able to stay with CX beyond 55.
Of course they may well get an extension themselves when they get to 55 or RA65 may be with us by then. They will also probably be able to find another job if it isn't, or they may wish to retire when they get there.
On balance, if you were an F/O or S/O in say your 30s, which would you pick right now?
I keep reading that the youngsters are short sighted for not wanting RA65 and it simply isn't true. Pilots are generally good at evaluating delayed reward and on balance, depending on your seniority, age and whether you prefer to be in Hkg or on a base, the scales tip in favour of RA55 right now for most junior crew.
The quandary for me is that I fly with a lot of great guys who are over or approaching 55 who I'd like to continue to work with, which is why I keep banging on about reaching a negotiated deal with the company on retirement age to replace the current crappy system we have whereby the company selects those it wishes to keep.
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Loop:
I have little doubt that many F/O's opposing RA65 do indeed hope it will be introduced at a later stage when they are promoted already.
But firstly I think this is a bit sad, for what it's worth, but secondly and more important quite optimistic and in the end simply a risky gamble. The more COS 08 guys moving in, the harder it will be to get RA65! In a few years time, there will be a significant number of pilots within CX who will do anything to avoid RA65, since they got it already, see?
I have worked for quite a few airlines in my life, and I have almost never seen anybody retiring earlier than he had to.
I also strongly oppose the general opinion that the company doesn't offer anything in return for RA65, it actually offers the opportunity to continue for 10 years on a high pay scale with a good seniority, possibly on a base with a decent roster. Even if you think the company should offer something on top, it just won't happen since every guy reaching 55 is happily accepting an extension anyway!
Just imagine working your final years struggling as an old fart for some contractor in Taipeh or Shenzen. There are not too many good jobs ( if any) around for 55 year old guys, you are usually not welcomed among the fellow crew members, most probably they do not speak your language anyway, no seniority,minimum off days,low pay,no or little housing, etc etc. Having said that, if CX is not offering any extensions than there is probably a reason for it, so you are looking at no income at all.
Again, with the company offering extensions anyway, there is no delay of command with RA65 !
There is nothing to win but a lot to loose if we don't move to RA65 now.
I honestly would be interested to see a financial plan from one of those opposing RA65. I am an F/O, 30 something, and I just do not understand how it should be possible to save enough in let's say 20 years of service to live afterwards for maybe 30 or 40 years ( that includes support time for wife and kids, I am not that optimistic).
Maybe somebody is willing to make it public here, how he plans to achieve that, with exact numbers/expected interest rates/inflation/tax etc. Could be interesting..
I have little doubt that many F/O's opposing RA65 do indeed hope it will be introduced at a later stage when they are promoted already.
But firstly I think this is a bit sad, for what it's worth, but secondly and more important quite optimistic and in the end simply a risky gamble. The more COS 08 guys moving in, the harder it will be to get RA65! In a few years time, there will be a significant number of pilots within CX who will do anything to avoid RA65, since they got it already, see?
I have worked for quite a few airlines in my life, and I have almost never seen anybody retiring earlier than he had to.
I also strongly oppose the general opinion that the company doesn't offer anything in return for RA65, it actually offers the opportunity to continue for 10 years on a high pay scale with a good seniority, possibly on a base with a decent roster. Even if you think the company should offer something on top, it just won't happen since every guy reaching 55 is happily accepting an extension anyway!
Just imagine working your final years struggling as an old fart for some contractor in Taipeh or Shenzen. There are not too many good jobs ( if any) around for 55 year old guys, you are usually not welcomed among the fellow crew members, most probably they do not speak your language anyway, no seniority,minimum off days,low pay,no or little housing, etc etc. Having said that, if CX is not offering any extensions than there is probably a reason for it, so you are looking at no income at all.
Again, with the company offering extensions anyway, there is no delay of command with RA65 !
There is nothing to win but a lot to loose if we don't move to RA65 now.
I honestly would be interested to see a financial plan from one of those opposing RA65. I am an F/O, 30 something, and I just do not understand how it should be possible to save enough in let's say 20 years of service to live afterwards for maybe 30 or 40 years ( that includes support time for wife and kids, I am not that optimistic
).Maybe somebody is willing to make it public here, how he plans to achieve that, with exact numbers/expected interest rates/inflation/tax etc. Could be interesting..
Last edited by sisyphos; 25th Feb 2009 at 13:20.
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Sisyphos, the following is my goal.
My desirable asset base would be A$3.5m. House and car paid for (no plane, boat, ex-wife, horse or racing cars)
Assuming an average over a 10-20 year period of 6% growth. In the good times see the pot swell, and viccy verky for the bad times.
Will leave 2%(of the 6% growth) in the pot, and expect only a slow decline of asset base, but still have some to leave kids when I fall of my perch.
That leaves me with 4%, which if structured correctly would be tax-free of $140k/yr.
I think that would do me fine, especially as one can expect outgoings to decrease as one crumbles round the edges.
As for the 3.5m, well we can all dream can't we?
My desirable asset base would be A$3.5m. House and car paid for (no plane, boat, ex-wife, horse or racing cars)
Assuming an average over a 10-20 year period of 6% growth. In the good times see the pot swell, and viccy verky for the bad times.
Will leave 2%(of the 6% growth) in the pot, and expect only a slow decline of asset base, but still have some to leave kids when I fall of my perch.
That leaves me with 4%, which if structured correctly would be tax-free of $140k/yr.
I think that would do me fine, especially as one can expect outgoings to decrease as one crumbles round the edges.
As for the 3.5m, well we can all dream can't we?