Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

AOA Survey

Old 30th Mar 2008, 15:45
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: HKG
Posts: 1,403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
simplex,

hope you don't play the horses. You're wrong

The NC'er knows I'm telling the truth
BusyB is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2008, 14:26
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: 'round here
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I assume you mean the 2nd Integration... throw me a lifeline here... How has the integration increased your time to comand..?
On a single day there were 90 additions to the seniority list thanks to the AOA. Last time I looked we weren't doing 90 commands a day............

Maybe I should hold out for mates in BALPA to get me a command at BA and shaft their own BALPA members, you think I'll be waiting a while?
stillalbatross is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2008, 14:44
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: HKG
Posts: 1,403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
They are all below everybody. Whats your beef?
BusyB is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2008, 16:01
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Simplex
you have not described BusyB at all. His numbers do add up if you know about him. For the sake of his anonymity I will leave it at that other than to say that I trust him and often disagree with him;-)



Last I checked it was CX that has introduced all the deleterious actions to our career and contract. The AOA GC tries to ameliorate CX impositions. If the AOA tries to introduce something that we don't want, we can vote it down...or maybe if it is soooo bad, CX will just refuse to implement it!


The AOA is not the bad guy - we are the AOA. If you don't like where we are going then say something or do something.
Numero Crunchero is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2008, 00:08
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 428
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
BusyB put yourself into a junior officerís position i.e. below the rank of Captain. You just slotted in 90 Captains on the freighter that could have gone to Senior First Officers on the Cathay Seniority list.

Agreeing to this just screwed 90 F/Oís which affects everyone below them.

ASL may be junior but they are in the Captains role. Great system. We are now allowing CX to bring in KA pilots in DEC positions, rapid commands ( no disrespect to the KA pilots), but is that fair to our Senior F/Oís that would like to bid for those positions or a Capt that would like to fly the freighter on a base because the passenger bases are full?

If they join the bottom of the list, there rank should reflect this.

Allowing stuff like this is only going to pave the way for DEC on the passenger fleet, when Cathay Pacific gets desperate enough.

We stopped hiring ASL pilots back in 2000 and all freighter commands after that came from the Cathay Seniority List, so now 90 pilots just jumped the queue. CX should have left the ASL pilots with ASL but no, Cathay needed the FACA to disappear. Why do we let this sh!te happen to us.

So now the FACA has disappeared and we have 90 DEC onto the freighter, what are we doing about it?

Yes I see what we are doing; we are negotiating retirement age and screwing our junior crew out of their contractual by-pass pay.

Maybe the junior crew should join the CPU because the AOA is surely not looking out for their interest.
Mr. Bloggs is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2008, 00:38
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well said Mr Bloggs...

No wonder so many junior crew are looking elsewhere.
Harbour Dweller is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2008, 01:32
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: 14N
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
For the record; I think I know BusyB, his numbers are right but more complicated than you think.
I think the time has come to admit that Cathay has become a "mature" airline. It's not the expat, hardship airline which it once was 20 or 30 years ago. I will admit that within the past few years ( a blip as it were) the effects of pollution have added a level of hardship (I apologize to parents of asthmatic children, it's more than just a hardship), but, we are as mature as Air Canada, British Airways, Qantas, S African, etc. Were you to have joined those airlines, you would have expected a decade or two to get your commands. I know guys at AC who joined in the 80's who have yet to get their commands, due to their own choice (life style, family commitments etc).
I joined on the wrong side of 93 and watched my command time erode by at least 4 years by the introduction of ASL (that delay is a guess). Do I now claim a right to work a bit longer to make up for the loss of income incurred by that decision? Trust me, I do not voluntarily want to work longer at this job at my own volition. I am still wondering why anyone in their right mind would want to work for an ultra long haul airline below the age of 35. I would leave this job tomorrow if I could afford to leave. As a matter of fact, if I were a young FO, I would be wondering why a bunch of 55 year olds want to keep on working at ultra long haul. Trust me, it's not because they are enjoying the job, or that they are paying off wives (although some are), it's beause times have changed and they need the income to carry on. They are probably no different to you. Although, I have flown with young FOs who have just come back from holidays I can only imagine, planning their next one, in town long enough to buy a new property before operating a trip. Jealous probably doesn't describe it,but it is a new world to me.
I would propose, seeing as people now seeing flying as money making career (you're missing the point people!), we base retirement from Cathay as asset dependant. Which means; if you are a young FO with several properties, you must leave to make way for some one behind you. If you are a senior B Scale Captain with kids and a couple of wives with no assets but are medically fit to fly, you can stay. At the end of the day, if you have enough money to leave Cathay, why are you here? Leave and let some other poor bugger carry on.
Before I open up my second bottle of wine, one other thing: don't work G Days. You're a selfish idiot if you do. Y
ou only hurt your colleagues when you do that. Sorry two; don't fly ultra long haul below the age of 35. Join your Air Force, work for the UN, fly in the Canadian north or the Outback. At least have a story to tell when you sit in the flight deck for 8 hours.
Busdude
Busdude is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2008, 07:14
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
busdude and mr bloggs....well said!
Numero Crunchero is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2008, 07:49
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: the world
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Not taking sides but isn't that the reason the company advertised the freighter command slots. All the "ASL" commands were available to anyone in the company. As I understand it there were more than 90 applicants, not sure how many were awarded. Some of these were pax captains that wanted a basing so this has in fact created some pax command vacancies in Hong Kong as well. All the ASL Capts got was a guarantee to remain on their base in the left seat. So effectively most of the freighter bases will be overstaffed and the FACA will probably effectively remain so that the company can get there pound of flesh from those that are on the freighter. As I understand they are all at the bottom of the list (as at 01/01/08) and will not get a pax command until their seniority comes up.

Of course the flaw in the argument is that the company doesn't move the goal posts, again!!!
backspace is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2008, 09:41
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 353
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Several of the ASL captains are approaching or beyond 55 so with the demise of the FACA, is bypass pay being paid for these extendees?
Looking at the CoS, there is no distinction between Pax and Frt captains where bypass pay is concerned.
Loopdeloop is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2008, 22:58
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: the world
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Loop, Good question. I am guessing that the ASL to Cathay contract doesn't specify a retirement age and there is some clause in there to get the company out of that one.

Over to the AOA!!
backspace is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2008, 23:38
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Loop et al

Some good points...

The FACA actually said there can be no second Integration.... I got the impression the AOA turned a blind eye to this and didn't oppose the second integration because they saw it could benefit some of their members in that YVR and SYD bases (particularly) would become available and the by-pass issue would be blown wide-open.

However, once you step outside the contract you are in the "rule of jungle" and the company (the master of the jungle) has replaced the FACA with a "Notice to Crew".... hence no by-pass for the over 55's on the freighter...

As for those YVR and SYD bases... how many guys actually went for it and then how many got through the PCA and then how many of those survived the star chamber? I personally know of 3 who have been told they were so close to getting through; try again in 6 months...... of course there will be no bases in 6 months.... funny that...
Liam Gallagher is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2008, 01:22
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
No blind eye turned....it was an imposed change!

No bypass pay paid for freighter captains on extension...CX interpretation!
Numero Crunchero is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2008, 02:15
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 428
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
So I assume nothing is being done about it then i.e. court action. But I guess we donít want to p1ss off the GMA or CX Management. Appease the bully/GMA I suppose.

Is the HKAOA scared to put the Associationís head above the parapet? That is why we pay our dues so we donít (that is another thread and I wonít go there)?

May as well put our heads in the sand.

Back to the AOA survey, how many this time will vote for industrial action whether it is just Contract Compliance and not do it?

Do use some justice, if you have no intention of doing industrial action please say so. I donít want to get shot or stabbed in the back by my own colleagues AGAIN!

BTW, last time most voted for industrial action with no intention of doing so, but rather see other colleagues do their dirty work for them. Well you know the rest. Men of character.

I just canít believe WE (as an association and pilot group) allow the GMA to have his interpretation of a document where it clearly states otherwise.

Hard to understand.
Mr. Bloggs is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2008, 07:43
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
NC

From 2 discussions I had with 2 very senior AOA figures, although an imposed deal as you say, they felt the implications of 2nd Integration favoured the majority of members and therefore would not be opposed..... I call that "blind eyed"...

Back on thread; irrespective of what results may come out of the survey; one result Nick Rhodes will pay attention to is the response rate. If you can't be @rsed completing the survey, are you really going to be @rsed with Contract Compliance, DEFO, FACA, RA 65 etal. Member or non-member, it's a painless procedure so there can be no excuses for anything other than 100% return.
Liam Gallagher is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2008, 10:38
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: hong kong
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Busdude,you are obviously in the wrong job! Believe it or not some chaps,even "crusty old 55 year olds" actually enjoy flying-that's why I became a pilot all those years ago! So don't assume something to which you are noy privy ie reasons for carrying on after 55 etc.Some of us ,believe it or not, are still with our first wives &have probably enough dosh too-work that one out!
trident-too is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2008, 19:55
  #37 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Sunny Downunder
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Still only about 700 completed.
Come on people thats still not good enough.
10 days left to get it done.
fuji is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2008, 23:11
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: home
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Approximately 2100 pilots in The Cathay Pacific Group and there seems to be at most 700 angry or upset pilots. I speculate of the 700 pilots roughly 10% are angry and the rest upset.

Of those 700 pilots, I dare say many have chosen wisely and not voted for industrial action of any kind. This represents 30% of the pilot workforce with roughly 3% angry and most likely posting unpleasant comments about the Cathay Pacific Group as an employer.

I presume 70% or 1400 of the pilots are happy with The Cathay Pacific Group as an employer.

This has given The AOA Leadership and The Cathay Pacific Group Management a great indicator of the resolve of the pilot workforce.

This will make OUR job considerably painless in implementing new contracts in the future and targeting small groups on different contracts in order to lower them. You may expect that DHL letter sooner than you think.

Again where will you go Jetstar, JetBlue, India, Korea, Middle East? With all the cuts we will execute The Cathay Pacific Group will remain the best compensated.

This gives us the power to translate current contracts as we see fit. What will happen if we ignore certain aspects of your contract i.e. upgrade policy for all ranks, basing allocation, EFP payments, AFTLís, bypass pay allocation, extensions beyond 55, etc. take a survey, take us to court?

We will attack these groups at different times in order to keep the pilot group attacking each other. This is a very effective strategy. While one group is having their contract changed or abused, other groups donít care as it does not affect them. We have done this for years.

For those that will remain in The Cathay Pacific Group expect your contract and the abuse of your contract to worsen as most have just given us permission to do so.

To My Bonus

The Management
The Management is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2008, 00:36
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Over There
Posts: 745
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Yawn!
cpdude is offline  
Old 4th Apr 2008, 02:20
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 462
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Yawn my arse !
Cpdude you seem to miss the point - all be it a sartirical one.
A low turn out on the survey will send a message to the upper floors that there is little resolve to stand up when they next "tinker" with our COS / rostering / 3 man ULH / bypass / direct entry LHS on pax fleet and so on.
Still yawning ?
fire wall is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.