Stop Working On G Days
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The point of this thread was not to name people who work on G days!
It was started out of pure frustration at the short sighted view of people hungry for 2000Hk call out! naming people does nothing but split the pilot body when they should be banding together!
For once in twenty years it would be nice to see the "EVERYONE FOR THEMSELVES" attitude put on the backburner, because if we didnt have that attitude in the first place we wouldnt be where we are today with the conditions hitting in my opinion the lowest that they can go before the old saying of "you could earn more driving a cab" actually applies!
It was started out of pure frustration at the short sighted view of people hungry for 2000Hk call out! naming people does nothing but split the pilot body when they should be banding together!
For once in twenty years it would be nice to see the "EVERYONE FOR THEMSELVES" attitude put on the backburner, because if we didnt have that attitude in the first place we wouldnt be where we are today with the conditions hitting in my opinion the lowest that they can go before the old saying of "you could earn more driving a cab" actually applies!
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End Game?
As someone who has previously worked "g" days, I am prepared to join your crusade.... however... can anyone specify what the "end game" looks like... a rise in the "G" compensation.... a bit of respect... A scales for everyone.. or the satisfaction of knowing you caused the company some grief
Any takers to answer that one?
Any takers to answer that one?
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Cannot
Liam
My G-days used to be occasionally available to help out our employer - but no longer.
On my G-days phone answering machine very definitely turned on and/or family well-briefed on what to say should a 2747 number appear on the display. I do not blame the guys and gals in CC - they are doing a thankless job. Ask what their staff turnover has been over the last 12 months or so - says it all.
I am noticing an insidious build up of fatigue levels in some of my long haul colleagues over the last 12-18 months. Anyone else noticing? Is there a reason for this?
PRA anyone?
Bottom line is it will only get worse unless there is a massive economic slow down.
G days are for resting NOT digging this lot out continuosly
My G-days used to be occasionally available to help out our employer - but no longer.
On my G-days phone answering machine very definitely turned on and/or family well-briefed on what to say should a 2747 number appear on the display. I do not blame the guys and gals in CC - they are doing a thankless job. Ask what their staff turnover has been over the last 12 months or so - says it all.
I am noticing an insidious build up of fatigue levels in some of my long haul colleagues over the last 12-18 months. Anyone else noticing? Is there a reason for this?
PRA anyone?
Bottom line is it will only get worse unless there is a massive economic slow down.
G days are for resting NOT digging this lot out continuosly
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Nullaman,
Good for you... G days are undeniably your day to do with as you please...
however, this thread has developed into a vigalante's "name and shame" playground, which I could almost respect if we had even the most informally agreed strategy in place....but we don't. I note that none of the promoters of this strategy can come on here, even protected by anonominity, and state an end game.
Frogman claims that such a strategy may force CX to "fix our conditions". I have no idea what "fix our conditions" means; except it doesn't motivate me to turn down the opportunity of a small bucket of cash and the ability to write my own roster in the short term... which kind of "fixes my conditions" in the short term at least.
If someone has a vision of what CX's response would be to a few cancelled flights; I... like many... are prepared to listen. In the absense of such, most of the posters on this thread seem to be enjoying the "name and shame" process a bit too much for my liking.
Perhaps 404 Titan is on target with his prediction.....
Good for you... G days are undeniably your day to do with as you please...
however, this thread has developed into a vigalante's "name and shame" playground, which I could almost respect if we had even the most informally agreed strategy in place....but we don't. I note that none of the promoters of this strategy can come on here, even protected by anonominity, and state an end game.
Frogman claims that such a strategy may force CX to "fix our conditions". I have no idea what "fix our conditions" means; except it doesn't motivate me to turn down the opportunity of a small bucket of cash and the ability to write my own roster in the short term... which kind of "fixes my conditions" in the short term at least.
If someone has a vision of what CX's response would be to a few cancelled flights; I... like many... are prepared to listen. In the absense of such, most of the posters on this thread seem to be enjoying the "name and shame" process a bit too much for my liking.
Perhaps 404 Titan is on target with his prediction.....
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Three calls this week! 
All straight to messagebank. One would have been excellent for me, but for the greater good of the group I didn't call them back.
It is time we were all less selfish and stopped working on Gs. If they park an aircraft, that will cost them $$, they will then realise they need more pilots, and to get them, they will have to improve T&C.
Well that is my simple POV anyway.
All straight to messagebank. One would have been excellent for me, but for the greater good of the group I didn't call them back. It is time we were all less selfish and stopped working on Gs. If they park an aircraft, that will cost them $$, they will then realise they need more pilots, and to get them, they will have to improve T&C.
Well that is my simple POV anyway.
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Liam
It's difficult to see a specific end game in sight except for the one thing that everyone understands - more money. The recent payrise and unforced increase in profit share are a step in the right direction and an indicator that the company know they need to buy some good will.
Who knows whether not working G's will help? At the moment it's just making CC's job more difficult and probably costing them more in overtime. However, it's just possible that someday soon a flight or two will be cancelled due crew shortage that will cause some embarrassment (ie. not just a TPE-HKG that can be easily covered up). When that happens, two groups of people will wake up. Firstly the management who will have egg on their face and may have to do something to stop the rot and secondly, the pilot group who will see the effect that not working G's by a some is having. They then may see that if we all do it then the management's cause will become more pressing.
I'm not greedy but I do think a reasonable payrise is due and am in no mood to help out the company on my days off, particularly after the kick in the teeth they gave us at the end of last year.
It's difficult to see a specific end game in sight except for the one thing that everyone understands - more money. The recent payrise and unforced increase in profit share are a step in the right direction and an indicator that the company know they need to buy some good will.
Who knows whether not working G's will help? At the moment it's just making CC's job more difficult and probably costing them more in overtime. However, it's just possible that someday soon a flight or two will be cancelled due crew shortage that will cause some embarrassment (ie. not just a TPE-HKG that can be easily covered up). When that happens, two groups of people will wake up. Firstly the management who will have egg on their face and may have to do something to stop the rot and secondly, the pilot group who will see the effect that not working G's by a some is having. They then may see that if we all do it then the management's cause will become more pressing.
I'm not greedy but I do think a reasonable payrise is due and am in no mood to help out the company on my days off, particularly after the kick in the teeth they gave us at the end of last year.
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Hypothesis. Every CX pilot refuses to work any G days.
Result. Every CX pilot is rostered for minimum G days and what used to be excess G days will now be Reserve or O days. 7 days off in 28, averaged out to 8 per 28 for 3 x 28 periods but subject to annual total of 102(?) G days. The rest would be reserve and O days.
If CX rostered defensively now, then not working on a G day would have no effect as they would have extra reserve coverage. Also we would likely need every G day for legal reasons...1 in 7, 2 in 14 etc
If it makes you feel good to not work a G day then don't. But don't kid yourself that you have somehow brought the airline to its knees. The last time we had contract compliance 90% of the effect of it was on disrupting our own rosters.
WOE, contract compliance and no G day working are about sending a message, not causing damage. Either CX has enough pilots or it doesn't. I have seen FOs do a westward ULR, 2 days off and then called out for eastward ULR. Its not like them not working G days had much effect given they are working to AFTLS limits anyway.
Morale is low and everyone wants to lash out...but doing so at your peers is hardly helpful or effective. Some lashed out at the first B scalers for taking the job on such poor terms. Then we lashed out at the new joiners during the recruitment ban. Now the CoS08 joiners as well????? Seems like picking on a segment within the pilot body hasnt been too effective in the past!
Result. Every CX pilot is rostered for minimum G days and what used to be excess G days will now be Reserve or O days. 7 days off in 28, averaged out to 8 per 28 for 3 x 28 periods but subject to annual total of 102(?) G days. The rest would be reserve and O days.
If CX rostered defensively now, then not working on a G day would have no effect as they would have extra reserve coverage. Also we would likely need every G day for legal reasons...1 in 7, 2 in 14 etc
If it makes you feel good to not work a G day then don't. But don't kid yourself that you have somehow brought the airline to its knees. The last time we had contract compliance 90% of the effect of it was on disrupting our own rosters.
WOE, contract compliance and no G day working are about sending a message, not causing damage. Either CX has enough pilots or it doesn't. I have seen FOs do a westward ULR, 2 days off and then called out for eastward ULR. Its not like them not working G days had much effect given they are working to AFTLS limits anyway.
Morale is low and everyone wants to lash out...but doing so at your peers is hardly helpful or effective. Some lashed out at the first B scalers for taking the job on such poor terms. Then we lashed out at the new joiners during the recruitment ban. Now the CoS08 joiners as well????? Seems like picking on a segment within the pilot body hasnt been too effective in the past!
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How ?
Number man !
Whats the remedy then ?
In order to bring the airline to its knees.
Or even better if guys like you can talk to them and make that win/win
Wondering, if the cost of over time pay is more than the cost of all crew on A-scale?
All on the same scale,
A-SCALE
July 1st. 2008
Whats the remedy then ?
In order to bring the airline to its knees.
Or even better if guys like you can talk to them and make that win/win
Wondering, if the cost of over time pay is more than the cost of all crew on A-scale?
All on the same scale,
A-SCALE
July 1st. 2008
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Some good stuff here.. thanks
Don't get me wrong; if you don't want to work a G-day.. don't...end of argument.
However, the last few flights I have operated with people who are flying on their G-days. Some on here would suggest they should be burnt at the stake; but as NC says there's no guidance from the AOA and no certainty that a unified stance (albeit informal) would produce the response we desire (which seems to vary from individual to individual). Equally, I can't help feel that no unified response will result in "same-old-same old...."
It's a tough one and I have sympathy with both sides of the argument....
However, the last few flights I have operated with people who are flying on their G-days. Some on here would suggest they should be burnt at the stake; but as NC says there's no guidance from the AOA and no certainty that a unified stance (albeit informal) would produce the response we desire (which seems to vary from individual to individual). Equally, I can't help feel that no unified response will result in "same-old-same old...."
It's a tough one and I have sympathy with both sides of the argument....
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As I see it there are a couple of courses of action for us to follow:
1: The AOA issues a policy that we don't work G days, and institute general contract compliance. The company responds by screaming "Industrial Action" and, as NC suggested, generating minimum G day rosters padded with reserve. This may even help them for a short while, until people start to run out of duty and flight hours and once again they are up against it.
When, inevitably, the wheels fall off and flights are cancelled, they will publicly blame our "Industrial Action" for the problem. I remember, at the height of the 2001 Troubles, when the company spin was to refer to it all as a "pay dispute." This had the effect of denying us any public sympathy, even though it was a complete fabrication. Now we really are talking about pay, they'll have a field day.
When, inevitably, the wheels fall off and flights are cancelled, they will publicly blame our "Industrial Action" for the problem. I remember, at the height of the 2001 Troubles, when the company spin was to refer to it all as a "pay dispute." This had the effect of denying us any public sympathy, even though it was a complete fabrication. Now we really are talking about pay, they'll have a field day.
2: Or, the AOA maintains a dignified silence. We make up our own minds about the correct course of action to follow. Phone calls from crewing are not answered, and one by one even the determined G day workers eventually decide that the overtime is not worth the fatigue. Requests are met with polite refusal.
This time, with no AOA directive or overt action on our part, it's a lot more difficult to point the finger in our direction. Who knows, they might even have to accept some of the responsibility themselves!
The choice seems simple to me...
This time, with no AOA directive or overt action on our part, it's a lot more difficult to point the finger in our direction. Who knows, they might even have to accept some of the responsibility themselves!
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Numero seems to have it sorted out (as usual).
The last thing we need is defensive rostering, so unofficial CC is the way to go.
The latest pay adjustments and profit share show we are doing a few things right!
We are the AOA...keep up support and tell non-members.
The last thing we need is defensive rostering, so unofficial CC is the way to go.
The latest pay adjustments and profit share show we are doing a few things right!
We are the AOA...keep up support and tell non-members.
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Whether you do it officially or not.... the day a flight is cancelled and bad press is received is the day the company will up the g-day callout pay and/or move to more defensive rostering.
Interestingly, the guys who I flew with who were working G-days achieved overtime by bringing flights forward into the current month... they are probably not going to fly more hours in a 2 month period; just more in the current (overtime) month. Therefore, the hours/fatigue issue is not huge.
Interestingly, the guys who I flew with who were working G-days achieved overtime by bringing flights forward into the current month... they are probably not going to fly more hours in a 2 month period; just more in the current (overtime) month. Therefore, the hours/fatigue issue is not huge.
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A big problem with CX, or any big corporation, is ownership. The people making decisions do not own the company so they don't really care what the long term effect is of their decisions. Why spend $10 today to save $20 five years from now when instead you can cut $10 today and get a bonus....five years from now you are moved somewhere else in the swire empire so it becomes SEP(somebody elses' problem)!
The zoologist has told us we have the right number of crew, ergo we will not have much of an overtime bill this year. Over the last couple of months many crew I speak to are doing 90-105hrs and getting more overtime than they ever have before. But as Liam has alluded to, they average 84hrs but distributed poorly thanks to the knockon effects of people working G days and disrupting their published roster!
So maybe working G days, disrupting the roster and causing lots of overtime might have an effect on management after all. After all the corporate culture here is 'penny wise, pound foolish'.
My view, FWIW, is that working G days should be up to the individual until we, as a collective group, decide otherwise. I know many people feel we shouldn't work on G days. So get your committee to make it a motion and vote on it. In the meantime we have no moral right or imperative to pass judgement on the actions of our peers for a viewpoint that has not achieved a democratic consensus.
I am still unconvinced as to the material effect of contract compliance on the operation. What contract compliance does do though, is send a loud and clear message - and what the company hates is airing of dirty laundry. They have been lucky so far in that the AOA GC has kept our dissent 'in house' thus far, unlike KA.
Maybe our month's profit share will buy our acquiescence....and the extra 6% for UFOs means it is only a 20% paycut to join as a DEFO now cf last year.
Still, my training has no more prepared me for making accurate business suppositions than a zoology degree does in preparing you for running an airline;-)
The zoologist has told us we have the right number of crew, ergo we will not have much of an overtime bill this year. Over the last couple of months many crew I speak to are doing 90-105hrs and getting more overtime than they ever have before. But as Liam has alluded to, they average 84hrs but distributed poorly thanks to the knockon effects of people working G days and disrupting their published roster!
So maybe working G days, disrupting the roster and causing lots of overtime might have an effect on management after all. After all the corporate culture here is 'penny wise, pound foolish'.
My view, FWIW, is that working G days should be up to the individual until we, as a collective group, decide otherwise. I know many people feel we shouldn't work on G days. So get your committee to make it a motion and vote on it. In the meantime we have no moral right or imperative to pass judgement on the actions of our peers for a viewpoint that has not achieved a democratic consensus.
I am still unconvinced as to the material effect of contract compliance on the operation. What contract compliance does do though, is send a loud and clear message - and what the company hates is airing of dirty laundry. They have been lucky so far in that the AOA GC has kept our dissent 'in house' thus far, unlike KA.
Maybe our month's profit share will buy our acquiescence....and the extra 6% for UFOs means it is only a 20% paycut to join as a DEFO now cf last year.
Still, my training has no more prepared me for making accurate business suppositions than a zoology degree does in preparing you for running an airline;-)
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all very weel asking the AoA to make it official to not work G Days but then that will only hurt us.......................
If the AoA makes it official then that will be seen by the company as being Industrial Action (Contract Compliance) and gives them an excuse to do two things ...............
One: Roster minimum G days
Two: no further Negotiations until Industrial Action ceases
so we as indivduals must stop working G days till they decide to up the ante
If the AoA makes it official then that will be seen by the company as being Industrial Action (Contract Compliance) and gives them an excuse to do two things ...............
One: Roster minimum G days
Two: no further Negotiations until Industrial Action ceases
so we as indivduals must stop working G days till they decide to up the ante
Sydneyman....
You are pathetic!!! Can't you read?
Naming and shaming is not yet the name of the game.
It's down to individual choice.
You were clearly not here 7 years ago. Intimdation of OUR peers is repulsive in the extreme. If you want names posting, then put YOURS here now and start the process. Stop your cowardly hiding behind a cloak of anonimity and put your own neck on the line!
Out....
You are pathetic!!! Can't you read?
Naming and shaming is not yet the name of the game.
It's down to individual choice.
You were clearly not here 7 years ago. Intimdation of OUR peers is repulsive in the extreme. If you want names posting, then put YOURS here now and start the process. Stop your cowardly hiding behind a cloak of anonimity and put your own neck on the line!
Out....
