CX 777 Flyby CP sacked
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Watched this stuff for years without saying anything but finally got moved to go 'into print' by Dragon69. I'm with you 'Volare'! You would appear to have a very caring nature. If you're not already, have you thought about C+T? As I understand things, the initial 'P' in PPRuNe stands for 'Professional'. A lot of these postings relating to, what might be described as, an unfortunate error of judgment on a certain individual's behalf are sadly lacking in anything like deserving as having come from the pen of so-called 'Professionals'.
This individual participated in the firing of 50 of his fellow pilots early this decade. At least he got a D&G Procedure.
He would have been the first to fail any pilot on a check ride for deliberately breaking SOP, and after probably two decades + of A scale salary plus C & T and Management allowances I'm sure 'he and his family' do not need 'thoughts'.
He would have been the first to fail any pilot on a check ride for deliberately breaking SOP, and after probably two decades + of A scale salary plus C & T and Management allowances I'm sure 'he and his family' do not need 'thoughts'.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 23rd Feb 2008 at 21:17.
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Error of judgement?
Totally agree with D69 here. Errors of judgement come on please. The CP planned this fly by and others for weeks in the calm sober atmosphere on the 3rd floor. Needless to say, other senior managers were aware and did nothing until the adverse publicity courtesy of youtube and PPRUNE. Even after the event no regrets until the fit hit the shan. These feelings of pity by some are not much different to "please help the company out" etc. Cathay is a corporation not one individual. These cowboy events sink airlines. I notice as others have mentioned how the lack of due process has not been followed in other such so called "errors of judgements".
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The real problem is the hypocrisy of the event. It was essentially gloated by most if not all of the managers including NR himself. Even though the little boy in each of us was saying "really cool flyby" the mature seasoned pilot was saying "it went too far".
So the dilemma begins...armed with indisputable evidence, the entire aviation community was able to judge for themselves and the verdict came in against the perpetrator.
It really doesn't matter who did it. Good guy, bad guy, manager or not. It was deemed to be of poor judgment.
So, does CX remove him from his position and send him to the line for a period of time? What about that judgment part which was deemed to be poor? Should he then not be demoted to F/O like the Captain of the JFK incident? Is there reason to retain a pilot that may be demoted who is already on extension and would this not set precedence for F/O's who may want to be extended.
No, the easiest solution is termination and that is always a sad time for many when a colleague is terminated...regardless of the situation.
Like any accident investigation, there are always several factors that create the setting for the incident. Previous flyby's and discussions of better ones all had a part in this incident and no one along the way ever said enough is enough this is going too far! Well, now the entire aviation community has said it and CX has mud on thier face.
So the dilemma begins...armed with indisputable evidence, the entire aviation community was able to judge for themselves and the verdict came in against the perpetrator.
It really doesn't matter who did it. Good guy, bad guy, manager or not. It was deemed to be of poor judgment.
So, does CX remove him from his position and send him to the line for a period of time? What about that judgment part which was deemed to be poor? Should he then not be demoted to F/O like the Captain of the JFK incident? Is there reason to retain a pilot that may be demoted who is already on extension and would this not set precedence for F/O's who may want to be extended.
No, the easiest solution is termination and that is always a sad time for many when a colleague is terminated...regardless of the situation.
Like any accident investigation, there are always several factors that create the setting for the incident. Previous flyby's and discussions of better ones all had a part in this incident and no one along the way ever said enough is enough this is going too far! Well, now the entire aviation community has said it and CX has mud on thier face.
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SCMP
Cathay Pacific sends pilot packing over Top Gun swoop Barclay Crawford
Updated on Feb 24, 2008 Flying a brand new Boeing 777-300ER on her maiden voyage from Boeing's Everett, Washington, plant to Hong Kong was obviously not enough of a thrill for Captain Ian Wilkinson.
So shortly after takeoff he turned the sixth purchase of the airline's new fleet around and swooped back to the ground to make a Top Gun-style, low-level fly-by of the Boeing factory.
But while the manoeuvre on January 30, only metres from the runway, might have wowed onlookers, senior Cathay Pacific figures - including chairman Christopher Pratt - aboard the flight were far from impressed.
It cost Captain Wilkinson his job. An airline spokeswoman confirmed the sacking yesterday and a six-month suspension from training duties for another, unidentified, pilot at a disciplinary hearing last week.
The hearing found the two in breach of company guidelines, which prohibit fly-bys without the required clearance.
Both have appealed against the decisions.
The plane was unmistakable: it had "Asia's World City" written in large letters on the body, which was also painted with the airline's trademark green logo and a dragon.
Since the fly-by, video and photographs have appeared on the internet of the flight, with other pilots and plane-spotters posting their opinions of Captain Wilkinson's daredevil stunt.
Most praised the quality of the fly-by, but there were critics.
One commented: "I love a good fly-by, like the rest of us ... but I can't say I think that one was too clever. A bit low and slow.
"Glad they didn't have an engine failure then."
One pilot told the Sunday Morning Post that the pilot must have had a rush of blood to have taken the plane to only 10 metres or less above the runway.
"Everyone's seen the pictures, and to me, it does look a bit dangerous," he said.
The spokeswoman said an internal investigation, including the collection of flight data and interviews with the crew involved, was under way.
Cathay Pacific had told the Civil Aviation Department to expect a report once the investigation was finished.
The airline had a well-established approval process for fly-bys and a number had been conducted in the past as display flights at air shows with proper approval in place, the spokeswoman said.
"The pilot in command of the flight was satisfied that the fly-by was not dangerous," she said.
"He was disciplined for not seeking or obtaining company approval for the manoeuvre."
Following the incident, Cathay Pacific has issued a notice to all cockpit crew reminding them of the company's policy on fly-bys.
Captain Wilkinson declined to comment last night.
Updated on Feb 24, 2008 Flying a brand new Boeing 777-300ER on her maiden voyage from Boeing's Everett, Washington, plant to Hong Kong was obviously not enough of a thrill for Captain Ian Wilkinson.
So shortly after takeoff he turned the sixth purchase of the airline's new fleet around and swooped back to the ground to make a Top Gun-style, low-level fly-by of the Boeing factory.
But while the manoeuvre on January 30, only metres from the runway, might have wowed onlookers, senior Cathay Pacific figures - including chairman Christopher Pratt - aboard the flight were far from impressed.
It cost Captain Wilkinson his job. An airline spokeswoman confirmed the sacking yesterday and a six-month suspension from training duties for another, unidentified, pilot at a disciplinary hearing last week.
The hearing found the two in breach of company guidelines, which prohibit fly-bys without the required clearance.
Both have appealed against the decisions.
The plane was unmistakable: it had "Asia's World City" written in large letters on the body, which was also painted with the airline's trademark green logo and a dragon.
Since the fly-by, video and photographs have appeared on the internet of the flight, with other pilots and plane-spotters posting their opinions of Captain Wilkinson's daredevil stunt.
Most praised the quality of the fly-by, but there were critics.
One commented: "I love a good fly-by, like the rest of us ... but I can't say I think that one was too clever. A bit low and slow.
"Glad they didn't have an engine failure then."
One pilot told the Sunday Morning Post that the pilot must have had a rush of blood to have taken the plane to only 10 metres or less above the runway.
"Everyone's seen the pictures, and to me, it does look a bit dangerous," he said.
The spokeswoman said an internal investigation, including the collection of flight data and interviews with the crew involved, was under way.
Cathay Pacific had told the Civil Aviation Department to expect a report once the investigation was finished.
The airline had a well-established approval process for fly-bys and a number had been conducted in the past as display flights at air shows with proper approval in place, the spokeswoman said.
"The pilot in command of the flight was satisfied that the fly-by was not dangerous," she said.
"He was disciplined for not seeking or obtaining company approval for the manoeuvre."
Following the incident, Cathay Pacific has issued a notice to all cockpit crew reminding them of the company's policy on fly-bys.
Captain Wilkinson declined to comment last night.
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It appears the "night of the long knives" has struck again .
Overflys on delivery flights have been done by CX for many years. What makes this one different? I suspect its just another case of rabies at management level, perhaps a vain effort to look balanced in their choice of victim. If this is how they treat one of their CP's the implications should be obvious to all.
Overflys on delivery flights have been done by CX for many years. What makes this one different? I suspect its just another case of rabies at management level, perhaps a vain effort to look balanced in their choice of victim. If this is how they treat one of their CP's the implications should be obvious to all.
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is in the South ChIna MOrning Paper today...
Cathay Pacific sends pilot packing over Top Gun swoop
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barclay Crawford
Updated on Feb 24, 2008
Flying a brand new Boeing 777-300ER on her maiden voyage from Boeing's Everett, Washington, plant to Hong Kong was obviously not enough of a thrill for Captain Ian Wilkinson.
So shortly after takeoff he turned the sixth purchase of the airline's new fleet around and swooped back to the ground to make a Top Gun-style, low-level fly-by of the Boeing factory.
But while the manoeuvre on January 30, only metres from the runway, might have wowed onlookers, senior Cathay Pacific figures - including chairman Christopher Pratt - aboard the flight were far from impressed.
Cathay Pacific sends pilot packing over Top Gun swoop
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barclay Crawford
Updated on Feb 24, 2008
Flying a brand new Boeing 777-300ER on her maiden voyage from Boeing's Everett, Washington, plant to Hong Kong was obviously not enough of a thrill for Captain Ian Wilkinson.
So shortly after takeoff he turned the sixth purchase of the airline's new fleet around and swooped back to the ground to make a Top Gun-style, low-level fly-by of the Boeing factory.
But while the manoeuvre on January 30, only metres from the runway, might have wowed onlookers, senior Cathay Pacific figures - including chairman Christopher Pratt - aboard the flight were far from impressed.
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Looks like he can go to UPS!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=82AHHr...eature=related
Some nice pics of the delivery here http://blog.seattle-deliveries.com/2...-delivery.html seeing the vids no longer around! (How did CX manage that?).
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=82AHHr...eature=related
Some nice pics of the delivery here http://blog.seattle-deliveries.com/2...-delivery.html seeing the vids no longer around! (How did CX manage that?).
Under no circumstances should you submit to CX's request to have these photos removed. This is a blog about the activities at PAE & BFI, not a CX PR campaign.
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Sorry to Top Gun fans
I guess he screwed up this much.....................
And he won't be flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog-sh1t out of Hong Kong then.........................
And he won't be flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog-sh1t out of Hong Kong then.........................
I still can't believe whats happened, it's really sad that anyones career should come to a screeching holt this way.
If we have got HC as the CP on the 777 then god help us, because he ain't done us any favours.
The Electronic Flight bag ( EFB ) will become an Electronic Flight Bible.
I still don't believe what's happened. IW, you goose.
If we have got HC as the CP on the 777 then god help us, because he ain't done us any favours.
The Electronic Flight bag ( EFB ) will become an Electronic Flight Bible.
I still don't believe what's happened. IW, you goose.
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CPDUDE, nice to see a well thought out overview of the situation covering many of the nuances. Sometimes reading some of the puerile and rat mentality on these sites and hearing the HTFU attitude by some individuals on line and behind the safety of their beer courage (who I'm afraid to say always belies their own scared little inner boys who are quick to rat pack bully any individual who they see as vulnerably exposed).
The relatively new effect of internet and instant wide spread communications on us as professionals where at any time our lapses in judgement can be viewed and gloated on by sad to say even our own colleagues adds another dimension to our already long rope to hang ourselves profession.
A large contributing factor to the result of this incident was the willingness of pilots here and elsewhere to showcase this on the web. Then bringing up old baggage and witch hunt tendencies call for blood. So well done lads you got your blood. Does it taste as sweet as you hoped? Does it ease your deep seated bitterness and hatred.
I was talking to a consultant friend of mine regarding this incident and he mentioned the affinity many doctors have towards the pilots regarding job responsibility and the effects of being paid to suppress natural emotions. One thing he said though was there has always been an ethos of support among doctors and an identification with those who make errors of judgment. This is sadly lacking in our profession among certain individuals. Lets just hope that it doesn't take you to be at the controls of an incident for you to realize the impact your low minded attacks have when you experience it yourself.
This site anonymous as it is offers many the opportunity to express and vent their anger, often hurting others. Its a pity we do not a more healthy and supportive environment in our professional lives that we could feel safe enough to discuss our feelings and fears as they arise with our colleagues without the risk of ridicule and being told to HTFU. (an apparently well known catch phrase "arising" from a certain "comedy" character which is a worrying insight in to what some think is funny).
Maybe its time for the silent majority who do not have the stomach to engage in the hyperbolic rantings of a few to let their voice be heard and show that there are indeed some pilots who have a healthy well rounded psyche.
There has always been the talk of the "Them v's us metality regarding the "evil" managemt" that certainly needs to improve for both the future success of the company and for our own careers.
What is of greater concern though is the problems within our own pilot body which has been too long tolerated of the nasty and bullish attitude some show to their colleagues, carrying historical and personal baggage into work with them every day. We hold power over each others careers as much as the company does, and when some are in either Managerial , C+T, elected union reps, national majority, buddy buddy drinking groups, more damage has been cause by misuse of those positions of power to individuals than the company has ever caused.
What could be called an error of judgment on behalf if this individual could also been seen as a career suicide. Watching it , it awakened something deep within which sadly to say I had lost. I was there in the seat myself, maybe a smile on my face a feeling of being alive and humming a bit of Dean Martin. I can see someone end his own career with the exhilaration and energy most of us started with, that joy of flying that passion and energy the pride and courage. Sadly it is has been lost to many. He has paid the price, leave him be lads
I still remember the good old days when we had dignity, camaraderie and self respect as a profession.
The relatively new effect of internet and instant wide spread communications on us as professionals where at any time our lapses in judgement can be viewed and gloated on by sad to say even our own colleagues adds another dimension to our already long rope to hang ourselves profession.
A large contributing factor to the result of this incident was the willingness of pilots here and elsewhere to showcase this on the web. Then bringing up old baggage and witch hunt tendencies call for blood. So well done lads you got your blood. Does it taste as sweet as you hoped? Does it ease your deep seated bitterness and hatred.
I was talking to a consultant friend of mine regarding this incident and he mentioned the affinity many doctors have towards the pilots regarding job responsibility and the effects of being paid to suppress natural emotions. One thing he said though was there has always been an ethos of support among doctors and an identification with those who make errors of judgment. This is sadly lacking in our profession among certain individuals. Lets just hope that it doesn't take you to be at the controls of an incident for you to realize the impact your low minded attacks have when you experience it yourself.
This site anonymous as it is offers many the opportunity to express and vent their anger, often hurting others. Its a pity we do not a more healthy and supportive environment in our professional lives that we could feel safe enough to discuss our feelings and fears as they arise with our colleagues without the risk of ridicule and being told to HTFU. (an apparently well known catch phrase "arising" from a certain "comedy" character which is a worrying insight in to what some think is funny).
Maybe its time for the silent majority who do not have the stomach to engage in the hyperbolic rantings of a few to let their voice be heard and show that there are indeed some pilots who have a healthy well rounded psyche.
There has always been the talk of the "Them v's us metality regarding the "evil" managemt" that certainly needs to improve for both the future success of the company and for our own careers.
What is of greater concern though is the problems within our own pilot body which has been too long tolerated of the nasty and bullish attitude some show to their colleagues, carrying historical and personal baggage into work with them every day. We hold power over each others careers as much as the company does, and when some are in either Managerial , C+T, elected union reps, national majority, buddy buddy drinking groups, more damage has been cause by misuse of those positions of power to individuals than the company has ever caused.
What could be called an error of judgment on behalf if this individual could also been seen as a career suicide. Watching it , it awakened something deep within which sadly to say I had lost. I was there in the seat myself, maybe a smile on my face a feeling of being alive and humming a bit of Dean Martin. I can see someone end his own career with the exhilaration and energy most of us started with, that joy of flying that passion and energy the pride and courage. Sadly it is has been lost to many. He has paid the price, leave him be lads
I still remember the good old days when we had dignity, camaraderie and self respect as a profession.
Last edited by volarecantare; 24th Feb 2008 at 06:54.
NR described the fly by as "spectacular". He posted pictures of it in his weekly newsletter. He thought it was great. Where is our gallant leader now???
How absolutely pathetic that we now have 'Management by Pprune and Youtube'.
One minute you think something is spectacular and the next you condone the sacking of the pilot. Come on NR. Resign with a bit of honour or at least let us know how something that was so 'spectacular' is now a career-ending 'stunt'.
Sais one hell of a lot about leadership eh??
How absolutely pathetic that we now have 'Management by Pprune and Youtube'.
One minute you think something is spectacular and the next you condone the sacking of the pilot. Come on NR. Resign with a bit of honour or at least let us know how something that was so 'spectacular' is now a career-ending 'stunt'.
Sais one hell of a lot about leadership eh??
Last edited by Arfur Dent; 24th Feb 2008 at 09:52.
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What a pity Barclay has missed out on the real story behind this, instead mere listing of events with a cheap puller mention on Top Gun. A child could have written that! What ever happened to good old journalistic expression?
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Volarecantare, I seem to disagree on some of your statements.
Yes it is even sweeter than I hoped. Let’s hope we see the day NR gets his from his peers. That will be even sweeter. If his was not involved in the Star Chamber, I may have a different opinion.
So tell me why a Senior Captain runs to Management and rats out a First or Second Officer over something that can be very opinionated. It is even seen on ERAS reports.
We hide behind anonymity because if we spoke our mind, NR does not have a problem hurting others. Think back!
Go ahead start another union maybe? Call it the Well Rounded Psyche or WRP union. Maybe NR as president. Yes I know, call it Check and Training.
Are you actually saying management is not evil? Tell that to the 49er whom NR tried to get evicted from his home. Wow, where have you been?
Tell this to MFL who has held back/destroyed careers. Are you telling me he is not a bully? Maybe you are his bully buddy. Heaps of bullying at CX, not just telling a fellow pilot not to work on his G day. How much time have you spent as an First Officer or lower at CX?
I think the peanut thrower had an error in judgment, but he lost his job. A real danger of getting a peanut in your eye, especially the salted ones. Much more dangerous than what the 777 CP did.
Dignity, camaraderie and self-respect as professions is a TWO WAY street. It was lost at CX well before I arrived. I had it when I came but seemed to have lost it in 1999 and 2001. My Seniors made sure of that.
Then bringing up old baggage and witch hunt tendencies call for blood. So well done lads you got your blood. Does it taste as sweet as you hoped? Does it ease your deep seated bitterness and hatred.
I was talking to a consultant friend of mine regarding this incident and he mentioned the affinity many doctors have towards the pilots regarding job responsibility and the effects of being paid to suppress natural emotions. One thing he said though was there has always been an ethos of support among doctors and an identification with those who make errors of judgment. This is sadly lacking in our profession among certain individuals. Lets just hope that it doesn't take you to be at the controls of an incident for you to realize the impact your low minded attacks have when you experience it yourself.
This site anonymous as it is offers many the opportunity to express and vent their anger, often hurting others. Its a pity we do not a more healthy and supportive environment in our professional lives that we could feel safe enough to discuss our feelings and fears as they arise with our colleagues without the risk of ridicule and being told to HTFU. (an apparently well known catch phrase "arising" from a certain "comedy" character which is a worrying insight in to what some think is funny).
Maybe its time for the silent majority who do not have the stomach to engage in the hyperbolic rantings of a few to let their voice be heard and show that there are indeed some pilots who have a healthy well rounded psyche.
There has always been the talk of the "Them v's us metality regarding the "evil" managemt" that certainly needs to improve for both the future success of the company and for our own careers.
What is of greater concern though is the problems within our own pilot body which has been too long tolerated of the nasty and bullish attitude some show to their colleagues, carrying historical and personal baggage into work with them every day. We hold power over each others careers as much as the company does, and when some are in either Managerial , C+T, elected union reps, national majority, buddy buddy drinking groups, more damage has been cause by misuse of those positions of power to individuals than the company has ever caused.
What could be called an error of judgment on behalf if this individual could also been seen as a career suicide. Watching it , it awakened something deep within which sadly to say I had lost. I was there in the seat myself, maybe a smile on my face a feeling of being alive and humming a bit of Dean Martin. I can see someone end his own career with the exhilaration and energy most of us started with, that joy of flying that passion and energy the pride and courage. Sadly it is has been lost to many. He has paid the price, leave him be lads
I still remember the good old days when we had dignity, camaraderie and self respect as a profession.
I still remember the good old days when we had dignity, camaraderie and self respect as a profession.
Dignity, camaraderie and self-respect as professions is a TWO WAY street. It was lost at CX well before I arrived. I had it when I came but seemed to have lost it in 1999 and 2001. My Seniors made sure of that.
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