BREAKING! - 744 S/Os Shafted....
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: On An Island
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BREAKING! - 744 S/Os Shafted....
So what is the AOA planning on doing about the fact that all Second Officers on the 400 are now being held back from upgrade so that the company can hire and train more DEFOs?
All upgrades have apparently been delayed by 9-12 months. These poor ba$tards will be forced to stand by and watch while colleagues junior to them on the Airbus are upgraded and join the JFO pay ladder. This will obviously cost people money for the rest of their careers.
All upgrades have apparently been delayed by 9-12 months. These poor ba$tards will be forced to stand by and watch while colleagues junior to them on the Airbus are upgraded and join the JFO pay ladder. This will obviously cost people money for the rest of their careers.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: therebedragons
Age: 64
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Que?
What exactly are you referring to? Is there an NTC or AOA update I've missed???
Are you suggesting the company is recruiting DEFOs to a HK base OR:
that 744 SOs are being "held back" until more junior SOs on the Airbus are upgraded instead? (which makes no sense whatsoever)
Are you suggesting the company is recruiting DEFOs to a HK base OR:
that 744 SOs are being "held back" until more junior SOs on the Airbus are upgraded instead? (which makes no sense whatsoever)
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
quacker and all,
I'm interested in knowing how and where you've find out the seniority numbers of those JFO you mentionned to determine they're upgrading SO out of seniority. I would like to check it out for myself...
I'm interested in knowing how and where you've find out the seniority numbers of those JFO you mentionned to determine they're upgrading SO out of seniority. I would like to check it out for myself...
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In my own underpants - most of the time - that is!
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just go online on intraCX and check the Sen.list and then go to the Flight Crew training site and see the names on the current/upcoming courses..
You guys should really demand the AoA to address this issue. It must be yet another breaking of the CoS that the AoA for once should persue instead of just writing letters! Put the lawyers on it!
You guys should really demand the AoA to address this issue. It must be yet another breaking of the CoS that the AoA for once should persue instead of just writing letters! Put the lawyers on it!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Asia
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you think it is bad now, just wait until 2008 when apparently things will really slow down for Boeing S/Os. Several of my friends have had their courses delayed from Jan/Feb to Oct/Nov due to 777 direct entry FO recruitment.
Good luck with that. One does have to wonder what the point of membership is if they can't even address blatant violations of conditions.
It must be yet another breaking of the CoS that the AoA for once should persue instead of just writing letters!
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In my own underpants - most of the time - that is!
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the AoA dont have the eyes on the ball on this one and manage to protect our S/Os that will be my final drop. Its a clear break of the CoS. The company is just doing what it wants and we are sitting back left with "our" AoA and doing nothing but writing letters. What a waste.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: canada
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
More to ponder!
Add to all this great news next year the plan is to hire 300 flight crew. They also plan to hire half as many SOs next year as they hired this year. We still need SOs so you know what that means.....get used to being an SO for awhile. The training department will be busy training DEFOs not spending more time and money upgrading SOs. WHERE ARE YOU AOA?!!!!!!!
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: nomad
Age: 55
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Also from our COS:
"Second Officers joining by Direct Entry will serve as Second Officers for approximately eighteen (18) months."
In the past this time has been extended due to 911, SARS, etc... But those times are behind us now, and with new A/C arriving every month and a huge order book, there is no reason that it should take 3 years for promotion to JFO!
With all the SO's suitable for upgrade at the moment, it's downright demoralizing to see all these DEFO's hired ahead of us. Not to mention in direct contradiction to our COS.
I guess the AOA is out of office for the holidays... I'm sure they'll sort this out for us in the new year...
"Second Officers joining by Direct Entry will serve as Second Officers for approximately eighteen (18) months."
In the past this time has been extended due to 911, SARS, etc... But those times are behind us now, and with new A/C arriving every month and a huge order book, there is no reason that it should take 3 years for promotion to JFO!
With all the SO's suitable for upgrade at the moment, it's downright demoralizing to see all these DEFO's hired ahead of us. Not to mention in direct contradiction to our COS.
I guess the AOA is out of office for the holidays... I'm sure they'll sort this out for us in the new year...
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm no lawyer, but I'll attempt to string together a few of CX's COS paragraphs, hopefully to highlight how SOs are ALL being shafted, not just those on the 744.
This is clearly not the case, so 6.3 is being used
Pretty clear that promotion is to be in seniority order.
The magical company requirements... The company requires FOs (and SOs)
Note that for the payment of bypass pay, the COS says SUITABLE, not selected as in COS para 7.1 above. So how does one become "suitable"?
From Vol 7, you need:
This is where the 18 months as an SO comes from; 12 months to complete modules 1 through 6 and achieve Grade A, plus 3 more modules at Grade A level. The individual is now SUITABLE for upgrade to JFO, hence bypass pay is required to be paid when DEFOs are recruited.
Note that the tech assessment is NOT a requirement of being a SUITABLE SO. The tech assessment is a function of being SELECTED and allocated an anticipated course date.
6.2. Recruitment of First Officers by Direct Entry will normally only take place when there are no Second Officers suitable for promotion.
6.3. In the event that recruitment of First Officers by Direct Entry occurs, other than in accordance with 6.2, Second Officers suitable for promotion will not normally have their promotion to Junior First Officer delayed by more than twelve (12) months whilst such First Officer recruitment by Direct Entry is taking place.
7. PROMOTION
7.1. Selection
a. Selection of Officers for promotion to higher rank will be in accordance with
seniority on the Officers’ relevant seniority list and is subject to a Selection
Panel recommendation.
7.1. Selection
a. Selection of Officers for promotion to higher rank will be in accordance with
seniority on the Officers’ relevant seniority list and is subject to a Selection
Panel recommendation.
7.2. Second Officer to Junior First Officer
b. Second Officers joining by Direct Entry will serve as Second Officers for
approximately eighteen (18) months.
c. Promotion to Junior First Officer will occur when the Second Officer is
allocated a conversion course, the effective date of promotion being the course start date. The number and timing of Junior First Officer upgrade courses is dependent upon Company requirements.
b. Second Officers joining by Direct Entry will serve as Second Officers for
approximately eighteen (18) months.
c. Promotion to Junior First Officer will occur when the Second Officer is
allocated a conversion course, the effective date of promotion being the course start date. The number and timing of Junior First Officer upgrade courses is dependent upon Company requirements.
10. BYPASS PAY
10.5. In any case of recruitment of First Officers by Direct Entry, other than in accordance with 6.2, the next most senior Second Officer suitable for promotion will receive First Officer Bypass Pay in the form of Junior First Officer’s Salary on a one for one basis commencing three (3) months after the date of joining of the First Officer recruited by Direct Entry. The payment of First Officer Bypass Pay will cease when the Second Officer receiving bypass pay commences Junior First Officer training.
10.5. In any case of recruitment of First Officers by Direct Entry, other than in accordance with 6.2, the next most senior Second Officer suitable for promotion will receive First Officer Bypass Pay in the form of Junior First Officer’s Salary on a one for one basis commencing three (3) months after the date of joining of the First Officer recruited by Direct Entry. The payment of First Officer Bypass Pay will cease when the Second Officer receiving bypass pay commences Junior First Officer training.
From Vol 7, you need:
Requirements for Upgrade to JFO
a. SOs are required to achieve Grade A and be able to maintain a Grade A standard, A minimum of three training modules at Grade A, spread evenly over a period of at least 3 months is required to meet this requirement.
a. SOs are required to achieve Grade A and be able to maintain a Grade A standard, A minimum of three training modules at Grade A, spread evenly over a period of at least 3 months is required to meet this requirement.
Note that the tech assessment is NOT a requirement of being a SUITABLE SO. The tech assessment is a function of being SELECTED and allocated an anticipated course date.
Tech Assessment: In the case of pilots approaching JFO Upgrade in seniority order this will be scheduled approximately 6 months before an anticipated upgrade.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Paradise
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmmm....
O.K. - before I join the angry mob that seems to be picking up burning torches and pitchforks whilst on the way to the AOA headquarters/CX third floor I have a few questions for those in the know. I would like to try & independently verify the pretty damning suggestions being made here:
1. How do I see who is on JFO course in Crew Direct? (I admit I'm a computer quamby & can see no such info in the many links provided on the Trg page.)
2. How did you guys deduce that -400 SOs are being delayed in comparison to Airbus SOs when the Seniority list is quite clearly a seldom updated and poorly administered database? (granted, that may be part of the CX "obscure & conquer" gameplan)
3. These claims should be easily verified by the SO joiners who were of "mixed course" about 2 years ago: ie there is often an even mix of 'bus & -400 SOs who all joined on the same day and within a few seniority numbers of each other: so are there any 'bus SO joiners who can confirm being recently favoured for JFO upgrades by 2-3 months over their -400 joiner comrades??
Before anyone asks, no I don't belong to management!!! I just like to get the facts before I follow the lemmings over the cliff...
1. How do I see who is on JFO course in Crew Direct? (I admit I'm a computer quamby & can see no such info in the many links provided on the Trg page.)
2. How did you guys deduce that -400 SOs are being delayed in comparison to Airbus SOs when the Seniority list is quite clearly a seldom updated and poorly administered database? (granted, that may be part of the CX "obscure & conquer" gameplan)
3. These claims should be easily verified by the SO joiners who were of "mixed course" about 2 years ago: ie there is often an even mix of 'bus & -400 SOs who all joined on the same day and within a few seniority numbers of each other: so are there any 'bus SO joiners who can confirm being recently favoured for JFO upgrades by 2-3 months over their -400 joiner comrades??
Before anyone asks, no I don't belong to management!!! I just like to get the facts before I follow the lemmings over the cliff...
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: home
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well Well Well.
Just to let you young chaps in on a little secret. We realize some of you are rather new in the company and may not have noticed.
So here it is in the simplest way I can put it: “We do what we want, when we want and there is nothing You, the AOA or a Lawyer can do about it”. Quite simple really, your COS is just a piece of paper.
You will get nothing until you are Cat A’d. We will not Cat A any S/O until a course is selected so no bypass pay until that happens. This may be 3 months before your course starts.
Enjoy the view from the back seat. With DEFO’s and age 65, you will be there longer; you may as well start enjoying it.
To my Bonus and a very nice one indeed.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank each and every pilot for helping US maximize our bonuses. We realize some of you are away many nights but I am home every night and keep regular sleeping hours, so thank you for reducing physiological rest. We realize it is legal and no one uses fatigue as an excuse and get the job done. From the bottom of my bonus, I thank you.
Merry Christmas and enjoy this festive season.
The Management
Just to let you young chaps in on a little secret. We realize some of you are rather new in the company and may not have noticed.
So here it is in the simplest way I can put it: “We do what we want, when we want and there is nothing You, the AOA or a Lawyer can do about it”. Quite simple really, your COS is just a piece of paper.
You will get nothing until you are Cat A’d. We will not Cat A any S/O until a course is selected so no bypass pay until that happens. This may be 3 months before your course starts.
Enjoy the view from the back seat. With DEFO’s and age 65, you will be there longer; you may as well start enjoying it.
To my Bonus and a very nice one indeed.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank each and every pilot for helping US maximize our bonuses. We realize some of you are away many nights but I am home every night and keep regular sleeping hours, so thank you for reducing physiological rest. We realize it is legal and no one uses fatigue as an excuse and get the job done. From the bottom of my bonus, I thank you.
Merry Christmas and enjoy this festive season.
The Management
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Heart of Asia
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmmm...
The Management is starting to blow his (or her) cover! He's got the SO upgrade process backwards. The actual process is:
- Cat A is granted after 1 year of mods, and more specifically, after the first Mod 6, assuming that the mods went reasonably well. (Cat A doesn't mean that you are going to be upgraded, just that you are elligible to be assessed - just another one of those silly CX hoops).
- Assessment is typically being done one or two months before the upgrade course date is granted.
Both of these facts can be confirmed by perusing Vol 7 or a call to real management.
Thus, The Management obviously isn't a manager, nor is he an SO... So, that leaves us with a disgruntled FO or Capt...
And all of you folks out there who thought he was a real manager... ha! (Still, too bad his sarcasm so often rings true...)
The Management is starting to blow his (or her) cover! He's got the SO upgrade process backwards. The actual process is:
- Cat A is granted after 1 year of mods, and more specifically, after the first Mod 6, assuming that the mods went reasonably well. (Cat A doesn't mean that you are going to be upgraded, just that you are elligible to be assessed - just another one of those silly CX hoops).
- Assessment is typically being done one or two months before the upgrade course date is granted.
Both of these facts can be confirmed by perusing Vol 7 or a call to real management.
Thus, The Management obviously isn't a manager, nor is he an SO... So, that leaves us with a disgruntled FO or Capt...
And all of you folks out there who thought he was a real manager... ha! (Still, too bad his sarcasm so often rings true...)
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: home
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With S/O upgrades being out to 4 year’s(longer with DEFO's and RA 65) have you known any S/O receiving bypass pay for a year or more?
Enjoy the view.
To my bonus!
The Management
Enjoy the view.
To my bonus!
The Management
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Heart of Asia
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's my point. Being Cat A'd (or more correctly, Grade A'd) doesn't mean you receive bypass pay as an SO. Semantics, I know, but any manager would know that (especially as most of our managers seem particularly good at semantics!).
Cover blown!
The Management Quote:
Cover blown!
The Management Quote:
You will get nothing until you are Cat A’d. We will not Cat A any S/O until a course is selected so no bypass pay until that happens. This may be 3 months before your course starts.
Last edited by betaboy; 23rd Dec 2007 at 11:39.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Gate 69
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
COS means nothing to CX
This is not a joke people. Airbus Second Officers ARE being given JFO courses before more senior Second Officers that are on the Jumbo. Why because the Jumbo guys have to do a full type course, whereas the Airbus guys are already CCQ on the A330, meaning a very abbreviated course. What is next? Commands only being given to First Officers already endorsed on type? 
And they are NOT getting bypass pay because they are not being assessed. Despite the fact they are Grade A. Despite the fact they have done their Upgrade Interview. Even if they were getting the money, it is capped at First Year JFO. So a colleague that joined after them, but by luck went onto the A340, will be making a lot more when they are QL after six months or so.
Why is all this happening? Is it because the company doesn’t have sufficient capability to conduct training. Or is it just trying to save money? Why train a SO when you can just recruit a new FO and train them. It means you don’t have to then train someone else to replace the SO. Are they now having trouble finding people that are willing to join as a Second Officer?
And the AOA? “We will continue to send letters detailing our disgust”.
And they are NOT getting bypass pay because they are not being assessed. Despite the fact they are Grade A. Despite the fact they have done their Upgrade Interview. Even if they were getting the money, it is capped at First Year JFO. So a colleague that joined after them, but by luck went onto the A340, will be making a lot more when they are QL after six months or so.
Why is all this happening? Is it because the company doesn’t have sufficient capability to conduct training. Or is it just trying to save money? Why train a SO when you can just recruit a new FO and train them. It means you don’t have to then train someone else to replace the SO. Are they now having trouble finding people that are willing to join as a Second Officer?
And the AOA? “We will continue to send letters detailing our disgust”.
Near Miss,
And the AOA? “We will continue to send letters detailing our disgust”.
Interesting, just went through the incoming mail for the last month. Only 2 from SO's neither giving us any information about any breaches of COS. Both replied to with requested information.
The GC can't do anything if they aren't told and then they have to fit it in between flights and home life. The sooner you pass on info the sooner it will get looked at, or perhaps you're not a member.
And the AOA? “We will continue to send letters detailing our disgust”.
Interesting, just went through the incoming mail for the last month. Only 2 from SO's neither giving us any information about any breaches of COS. Both replied to with requested information.
The GC can't do anything if they aren't told and then they have to fit it in between flights and home life. The sooner you pass on info the sooner it will get looked at, or perhaps you're not a member.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: same place
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well surely the AOA should be proactive in spotting and taking action against alleged breaches of COS and not soley relying on letters from S/O's etc. After all this is why people pay there subs is it not?
Last edited by EXEZY; 23rd Dec 2007 at 13:48.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Gate 69
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BusyB, there are more ways than just letters for SO's to contact the AOA. I have been told that when they have phoned, they got the "We have sent a letter to the company on your behalf". Maybe I should tell them to write it as well.
Oh and my membership is not the issue here. It is the way the company is treating it’s Second Officers.
Oh and my membership is not the issue here. It is the way the company is treating it’s Second Officers.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In my own underpants - most of the time - that is!
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah blame it the NON-members - are they not entitled to having their CoS followed or what?? And if the AoA has already had two emails from "members" is that not enough - do you need 10 or a 100 letters or what??
I know for a fact that the AoA has been contacted in the past with regards to keeping a finger on the pulse w. regards to the S/O upgrade and transparency! Now lets get the AoA to try and work FOR the members and non-members for that sake - instead of just sending letters!! A lot of us are starting to get fed up with "letters here and letters there". It seems to me that all the AoA is doing is just that. A lot of talk and NO action. Now get onto it!
I know for a fact that the AoA has been contacted in the past with regards to keeping a finger on the pulse w. regards to the S/O upgrade and transparency! Now lets get the AoA to try and work FOR the members and non-members for that sake - instead of just sending letters!! A lot of us are starting to get fed up with "letters here and letters there". It seems to me that all the AoA is doing is just that. A lot of talk and NO action. Now get onto it!