BREAKING! - 744 S/Os Shafted....
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It will be interesting to see if CX use the dreaded QL check as a way to realign the seniority list for the 400 SO's. This way the company wins twice, 400 SO's longer as SO's and Airbus JFO's longer as JFO's and there will be no leg to stand on by the AoA with regard to the bypass pay issue.
Does this stuff happen for command? I would like to bet that CX have done their sums and have worked out that the saving in the SO to JFO training is greater than the cost of bypass pay and that this is reversed when it comes to command bypass pay and command training. NC do you have any figures on this?
Does this stuff happen for command? I would like to bet that CX have done their sums and have worked out that the saving in the SO to JFO training is greater than the cost of bypass pay and that this is reversed when it comes to command bypass pay and command training. NC do you have any figures on this?
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Using old CX training figures(from 1999) a typical course is around half a million. Bypass pay is around $60K pa per SO.
CX are training course limited, not cash limited. With only 2 full time 777 sim instructors and 7 out of 20 744 sim instructors, courses are the constraint.
So it saves them money and courses to bypass.
CX are training course limited, not cash limited. With only 2 full time 777 sim instructors and 7 out of 20 744 sim instructors, courses are the constraint.
So it saves them money and courses to bypass.
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I go home on leave (full fare mind you 
), and in the meantime, this thread seems to have gone all quiet. So before I head back to work, what is happening?
Are 744 SO’s being held back while junior Airbus guys get JFO courses? Are 744 SO’s being offered A330 spots while the B777 training department is busy with DEFO’s? Are “assessments” being delayed until just before course dates? Are they getting Bypass Pay? Are they still making the bunks?
BTW BusyB, not that it matters here, but I am a member. My “whinging” with the AoA is due to the response that SO’s (follow colleagues and members) were given when contacting them, admittedly via the phone.
I do not believe the softly, softly approach is working.
PS Liam Gallagher, have a look at CoS (99) Bypass Pay 10.2.
), and in the meantime, this thread seems to have gone all quiet. So before I head back to work, what is happening? Are 744 SO’s being held back while junior Airbus guys get JFO courses? Are 744 SO’s being offered A330 spots while the B777 training department is busy with DEFO’s? Are “assessments” being delayed until just before course dates? Are they getting Bypass Pay? Are they still making the bunks?
BTW BusyB, not that it matters here, but I am a member. My “whinging” with the AoA is due to the response that SO’s (follow colleagues and members) were given when contacting them, admittedly via the phone.
I do not believe the softly, softly approach is working.
PS Liam Gallagher, have a look at CoS (99) Bypass Pay 10.2.
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Hi Liam, we must be looking at different things. From the paper copy that I have (which is obviously old) this what I was referring to. I will download the one from IntraCX later. 
10 BYPASS PAY
10.2 In any case of retention of Captains beyond the Retirement Age, the next most senior Second Officer suitable for promotion will receive First Officer Bypass Pay in the form of Junior First Officer’s Salary, allowances and benefits on a one for one basis commencing upon the date that the retained Captain reaches the Retirement Age. The payment of First Officer Bypass Pay will cease when the retained Captain retires.
10 BYPASS PAY
10.2 In any case of retention of Captains beyond the Retirement Age, the next most senior Second Officer suitable for promotion will receive First Officer Bypass Pay in the form of Junior First Officer’s Salary, allowances and benefits on a one for one basis commencing upon the date that the retained Captain reaches the Retirement Age. The payment of First Officer Bypass Pay will cease when the retained Captain retires.
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Check out the 10.5 CX CoS......(In theory, no VETA SOs).
Also included 6.2 which is the bit the Company are riding rough shod over. Given that everyone is carefully recruited with Command potential (never mind FO potential), their interpretation of "suitability" is a complete urine extraction exercise.
To Management's Bonus!
Milly
6.2
Recruitment of First Officers by Direct Entry will normally only take place when there are no Second Officers suitable for promotion.
10.5
In any case of recruitment of First Officers by Direct Entry, other than in accordance with 6.2, the next most senior Second Officer suitable for promotion will receive First Officer Bypass Pay....
Also included 6.2 which is the bit the Company are riding rough shod over. Given that everyone is carefully recruited with Command potential (never mind FO potential), their interpretation of "suitability" is a complete urine extraction exercise.
To Management's Bonus!
Milly
6.2
Recruitment of First Officers by Direct Entry will normally only take place when there are no Second Officers suitable for promotion.
10.5
In any case of recruitment of First Officers by Direct Entry, other than in accordance with 6.2, the next most senior Second Officer suitable for promotion will receive First Officer Bypass Pay....
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Near Miss,
Yes it's true that Airbus guys are getting courses now while the 400 S/O's are being told a vague date sometime later in 2008. Assessments are still happening in order of seniority, although this is now happening 6 MONTHS AFTER passing the upgrade interview. And yes, 400 SO's still have to make the bunks..
still haven't heard boo from the AOA... the holidays are over chaps - lets see some action!
Yes it's true that Airbus guys are getting courses now while the 400 S/O's are being told a vague date sometime later in 2008. Assessments are still happening in order of seniority, although this is now happening 6 MONTHS AFTER passing the upgrade interview. And yes, 400 SO's still have to make the bunks..
still haven't heard boo from the AOA... the holidays are over chaps - lets see some action!
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And herein lies the problem
Your COS, sometimes *laughingly* referred to as your Employment Contract, is being silently amended as the company sees fit. The COS on Crew Direct, which is the one the company will refer to, does not mention SO's under the provisions of by-pass for extendees.
Regrettably, we have allowed the company to do this for a number of years, through laziness or for our own expendiency. Kinda like the young debutante enjoying the blowing the ear, nervous about the hand on the thigh and niave to were it's all leading to..... someone getting proper
ed!
Modern Industrial relations eh Steve??
Regrettably, we have allowed the company to do this for a number of years, through laziness or for our own expendiency. Kinda like the young debutante enjoying the blowing the ear, nervous about the hand on the thigh and niave to were it's all leading to..... someone getting proper
ed!Modern Industrial relations eh Steve??
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First off, section 10.2 on Crew Direct says that SO's get bypass pay for extendees. Just checked, sorry to replace ranting with facts
in response to the previous question:
Previously, a lot of folks were given a choice on upgrading fleets. As I have heard it, this is what is currently happening:
Airbus so's get a 330 short course and are off and running (the junior ones are getting courses at less than 3 years from DOJ)
744 so's getting 777 at a later date; was told by a friend that consideration would be given on a "case by case" basis if you really wanted the 330. Some -400 so's do get the 330 as there is one on course this month.
777 so's haven't gotten to the top of the pile yet so I dunno
in response to the previous question:
Previously, a lot of folks were given a choice on upgrading fleets. As I have heard it, this is what is currently happening:
Airbus so's get a 330 short course and are off and running (the junior ones are getting courses at less than 3 years from DOJ)
744 so's getting 777 at a later date; was told by a friend that consideration would be given on a "case by case" basis if you really wanted the 330. Some -400 so's do get the 330 as there is one on course this month.
777 so's haven't gotten to the top of the pile yet so I dunno
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Drunkensailor
Not ranting... just confused as your facts are clearly different to mine....
... on my computer..... Crew Direct<Veta COS< Section 9 Bypass< Section 10 Excess Flying Pay(EFP)
No mention of SO's getting bypass in either section and would copy it if I knew how
Also found down the back of the sofa a hard copy of Veta COS 99 issued in late 99; section 9 Bypass Pay, section 10 EFP... again no mention of SO's...
It would seem there is a difference between the Veta COS and the CX COS and Crew Direct takes you automatically to the applicable COS for the individual concerned? Whilst I can look at USAB and AOBL COSs; I can't view a CX COS.
Am I correct in assuming SOs are employed by CX and not Veta? if so at what stage do you transfer over to Veta?
... on my computer..... Crew Direct<Veta COS< Section 9 Bypass< Section 10 Excess Flying Pay(EFP)
No mention of SO's getting bypass in either section and would copy it if I knew how
Also found down the back of the sofa a hard copy of Veta COS 99 issued in late 99; section 9 Bypass Pay, section 10 EFP... again no mention of SO's...
It would seem there is a difference between the Veta COS and the CX COS and Crew Direct takes you automatically to the applicable COS for the individual concerned? Whilst I can look at USAB and AOBL COSs; I can't view a CX COS.
Am I correct in assuming SOs are employed by CX and not Veta? if so at what stage do you transfer over to Veta?
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yes, all SO's are on the CX CoS, not VETA. I believe you only go on VETA if you take a base? so don't know what your point was supposed to be Liam, but SO's are entitled to bypass pay for the extendees. you must work on the 3rd floor?
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hahaha....! This sort of debate clearly demonstrates just how f**ked up our COS have become. Can anyone here claim they definitevely 'know' what rules apply to them? ......thought not . What a pathetic mess our so called 'career' airline has become.
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Bunkmaker
Take a deep breath and be careful who you flame.... my point is that I go to my copy of the COS, both hard copy and electronic, and it doesn't allow for SO's getting by-pass. No agenda, just dealing with what is written.
Equally, my COS doesn't even mention DE FO's.... what effect do they and extendees have on a Freighter FO on the Veta COS... "career" wise... quite a bit... compensation.... nil....
It would seem that SO's are on a different "contract". I am HK based and on a Veta contract. Big deal you may say: I think Apple Tree Yard has it spot on; the whole contract has become so complicated and in such disrepair that the company are doing what they want on any given day. There is no fairness or consistency; your expectations are different than mine and I can't even look and learn about what your expectations are.
Career Airline???
Equally, my COS doesn't even mention DE FO's.... what effect do they and extendees have on a Freighter FO on the Veta COS... "career" wise... quite a bit... compensation.... nil....
It would seem that SO's are on a different "contract". I am HK based and on a Veta contract. Big deal you may say: I think Apple Tree Yard has it spot on; the whole contract has become so complicated and in such disrepair that the company are doing what they want on any given day. There is no fairness or consistency; your expectations are different than mine and I can't even look and learn about what your expectations are.
Career Airline???
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liam and bunkmaker
You are both right. CoS are tailored to your position in the company. There are no SOs in VETA as you cannot get an SO basing! So you need to log on and read CX B scale CoS to find out about SO bypass pay. And often the sections don't line up - section 9 in one might be section 10 in the other one.
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NC
Bit of thread creep... but... How do I get Crew Direct to show me "CX B scale COS"?
When I log on it defaults to Veta COS and then I can ask for USAB, AOBL, NZBL and 3 Veta Bases, Canada, UK and Europe. Curiously, without going thru each one line by line, it seems the body of the COS is always the Veta COS; but with different pay scales annexed to it. I notice that some of the bases have pay scales for SO's, even though there are no based SO's. Presumably, if you were based you would not get by-pass at all because the main body of your COS is the Veta COS....... what a sack of cack...........
When I log on it defaults to Veta COS and then I can ask for USAB, AOBL, NZBL and 3 Veta Bases, Canada, UK and Europe. Curiously, without going thru each one line by line, it seems the body of the COS is always the Veta COS; but with different pay scales annexed to it. I notice that some of the bases have pay scales for SO's, even though there are no based SO's. Presumably, if you were based you would not get by-pass at all because the main body of your COS is the Veta COS....... what a sack of cack...........