BREAKING! - 744 S/Os Shafted....
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Agreed the numberous different CoS around depending on when & where you joined the company is a big issue - in fact one deserving it's own thread.
Back to the 400 SO's getting shafted... the 400 SO's are no longer being offered courses on the 330 (unless you ask for it), and are being delayed because of the backlog in training on the 777 fleet. Meanwhile Airbus SO's are uprading on the 330 without delays, and Airbus FO's are being dragged across to the 400 fleet to fill FO vacancies there. How about offering 400 SO's an upgrade onto the 400?!? It would be a short course, saving the company money, and then they wouldn't have to drag Airbus FO's, kicking and screaming, who would require a full course.
Maybe that would be too logical...
Back to the 400 SO's getting shafted... the 400 SO's are no longer being offered courses on the 330 (unless you ask for it), and are being delayed because of the backlog in training on the 777 fleet. Meanwhile Airbus SO's are uprading on the 330 without delays, and Airbus FO's are being dragged across to the 400 fleet to fill FO vacancies there. How about offering 400 SO's an upgrade onto the 400?!? It would be a short course, saving the company money, and then they wouldn't have to drag Airbus FO's, kicking and screaming, who would require a full course.
Maybe that would be too logical...
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Bunkmaker,
several reasons for not upgrading SO's on the 400.First of all not enough training sectors(min 40 sectors for JFO upgrade) and it also means that the company has to choose between previous jet experienced SO and the ones who had only flown bug smashers previously(basically out of seniority).
Then for Airbus FO's, you have ZFT and also minimum sectors of 8 for line training.
Happy New Year and Safe Flying
several reasons for not upgrading SO's on the 400.First of all not enough training sectors(min 40 sectors for JFO upgrade) and it also means that the company has to choose between previous jet experienced SO and the ones who had only flown bug smashers previously(basically out of seniority).
Then for Airbus FO's, you have ZFT and also minimum sectors of 8 for line training.
Happy New Year and Safe Flying
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If I can bring this back to the top and urge all S/Os to write to the AOA expressing your thoughts and solutions to this. Now is the time we need OUR union working for US.....
Fly safe
Ex DD
Fly safe
Ex DD
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Today's update from the GMA admits the issue of delayed upgrades for 744 S/Os .
The GMA says: "However, it is not possible to train everyone in precise seniority order".
does not tie with:
COS99 7.1 "Selection of Officers for promotion to higher rank will be in accordance with seniority.... and is subject to a selection panel recommendation".
If an Airbus S/O is upgraded 3 months prior to a Boeing S/O of equal seniority, and they then both subsequently upgrade to captain on the same date in the future, the Airbus officer will be $83910 better off.
(The assumptions: 3 months longer at SO3 for the 744 S/O, but 3 months less as an FO4. Both do 9 months on JFO 1 pay but I'm pretty sure the Airbus guy will do their QL first as they will do their line check relatively earlier, meaning less time as a JFO).
So in my opinion, if the company admits they cannot follow the Conditions of Service, then there is a very strong case for financial compensation for those affected.
The GMA says: "However, it is not possible to train everyone in precise seniority order".
does not tie with:
COS99 7.1 "Selection of Officers for promotion to higher rank will be in accordance with seniority.... and is subject to a selection panel recommendation".
If an Airbus S/O is upgraded 3 months prior to a Boeing S/O of equal seniority, and they then both subsequently upgrade to captain on the same date in the future, the Airbus officer will be $83910 better off.
(The assumptions: 3 months longer at SO3 for the 744 S/O, but 3 months less as an FO4. Both do 9 months on JFO 1 pay but I'm pretty sure the Airbus guy will do their QL first as they will do their line check relatively earlier, meaning less time as a JFO).
So in my opinion, if the company admits they cannot follow the Conditions of Service, then there is a very strong case for financial compensation for those affected.
Last edited by Ex Douglas Driver; 18th Jan 2008 at 06:54.
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So in my opinion, if the company admits they cannot follow the Conditions of Service, then there is a very strong case for financial compensation for those affected.
....and a VERY interesting court case
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Some Stats
I did a bit of trawling and have come up with the following to show the disparity in upgrade times for SOs, depending on fleet. This information is based on actual seniority and roster data. The numbers show the relative positions on the seniority list.
01 / Airbus SO - 330 JFO / 19 Dec 07
02 / 744 SO - 777 JFO / 21 Mar 08
03 - 06 / 744 SOs awaiting upgrade
07 / Airbus SO - 330 JFO / 30 Jan 08
08 / Airbus SO - 330 JFO / 30 Jan 08
09 - 17 / 744 SO awaiting upgrade
18 / 744 SO - 330 JFO / 01 Mar 08
19 - 20 / 744 SOs awaiting upgrade
21 / Airbus SO - 330 JFO / 20 Feb 08
The bold lines shows the 2 conversion options for 744 SOs. The 744 SO going to the 777 is delayed by approx 2 - 3 months compared to his Airbus peers. The 744 SO going to the 330 is upgrading 20 days before his more senior 777 counterpart, but this is still 2 weeks after an Airbus SO who is 3 positions behind.
How much of this is down to personal preference?
01 / Airbus SO - 330 JFO / 19 Dec 07
02 / 744 SO - 777 JFO / 21 Mar 08
03 - 06 / 744 SOs awaiting upgrade
07 / Airbus SO - 330 JFO / 30 Jan 08
08 / Airbus SO - 330 JFO / 30 Jan 08
09 - 17 / 744 SO awaiting upgrade
18 / 744 SO - 330 JFO / 01 Mar 08
19 - 20 / 744 SOs awaiting upgrade
21 / Airbus SO - 330 JFO / 20 Feb 08
The bold lines shows the 2 conversion options for 744 SOs. The 744 SO going to the 777 is delayed by approx 2 - 3 months compared to his Airbus peers. The 744 SO going to the 330 is upgrading 20 days before his more senior 777 counterpart, but this is still 2 weeks after an Airbus SO who is 3 positions behind.
How much of this is down to personal preference?
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First off, we need to accept the fact that there are a330 short courses and a330 long courses. 744 SO's CAN NOT take a short course so there will ALWAYS be some discontinuity in the upgrades as you go down the seniority list as the 330 short courses must be filled by airbus SO's. I will admit that it has gotten a bit excessive lately. I do however, think the trend is reversing.
I searched through the April rosters to see who was getting courses. The 744 SO's who were awarded the 777 were significantly senior than the ones who went to the Airbus. There were at least 2 if not 3 744 SO's starting a 330 course in April. They were a couple of months junior to the ones going to the 777. I hate to say this but it is not Cx's fault if 10 or so 744 SO's did not want the 330 and they had to go down the list to fill the courses they had available.
When you compare the junior 744 SO getting an a330 course and the junior airbus SO getting an upgrade course, the difference in DOJ is a matter of about two weeks. That is good news because it looks like the company is creating 330 long courses for the 744 guys that want them. As far as the difference in dates of the courses for the 744 guys and the 330 guys, it comes down to when they could fit in the short course vs. the long course.
On another note, I noticed that a lot of people doing a jfo airbus course are having 330 SO trips put on their roster between the end of their sim's and their base training/LFUS, could there be a crew shortage perhaps???
Oh, silly me, "there is no such thing as a crew shortage!"
I searched through the April rosters to see who was getting courses. The 744 SO's who were awarded the 777 were significantly senior than the ones who went to the Airbus. There were at least 2 if not 3 744 SO's starting a 330 course in April. They were a couple of months junior to the ones going to the 777. I hate to say this but it is not Cx's fault if 10 or so 744 SO's did not want the 330 and they had to go down the list to fill the courses they had available.
When you compare the junior 744 SO getting an a330 course and the junior airbus SO getting an upgrade course, the difference in DOJ is a matter of about two weeks. That is good news because it looks like the company is creating 330 long courses for the 744 guys that want them. As far as the difference in dates of the courses for the 744 guys and the 330 guys, it comes down to when they could fit in the short course vs. the long course.
On another note, I noticed that a lot of people doing a jfo airbus course are having 330 SO trips put on their roster between the end of their sim's and their base training/LFUS, could there be a crew shortage perhaps???
Oh, silly me, "there is no such thing as a crew shortage!"
