KA's average payrise
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Fen, Pan, ATY.
Am I correct in saying that if you are a member of the AOA you have balls and if you choose not to join you don't have balls??????Not a very mature case for encouraging new members is it!
I am a member of the AOA and find it quite funny that you think that if we had a larger percentage of members we would progress with talks/action etc.
I for one feel that even with 100% we would not achieve as much as you think we would. We need a change at the top. Not only that, the company will always do what they want, 49ers anyone. Many members are dissatisfied with the running of the AOA not just the membership numbers.
This is of course just my humble opinion so please feel free to make some fantastically funny remark about balls etc.......
Am I correct in saying that if you are a member of the AOA you have balls and if you choose not to join you don't have balls??????Not a very mature case for encouraging new members is it!
I am a member of the AOA and find it quite funny that you think that if we had a larger percentage of members we would progress with talks/action etc.
I for one feel that even with 100% we would not achieve as much as you think we would. We need a change at the top. Not only that, the company will always do what they want, 49ers anyone. Many members are dissatisfied with the running of the AOA not just the membership numbers.
This is of course just my humble opinion so please feel free to make some fantastically funny remark about balls etc.......
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I have to concur with the skycruiser's post.
The dragon guys and gals deserve every cent of that payrise, well done all. And kudos to the DPA for sticking to the agenda.
I'm also a member of the AOA, i haven't any intention of giving that up either but it's becoming rather difficult to convince others why they should join. I believe in influencing by example but increasingly the example I'm setting as an AOA member is becoming a joke. I pay a % of my salary to a cause that is yielding squat. Right now could potentially be its finest hour. I'm disappointed to not even see a statement of support for the FAUs movement come out of the AOA.
Despite my misgivings I have no doubt that the GC are working on trying to resolve issues but the lack of updates, information and transparency is mystifying and defies logic. So balancing-scale wise there are many more reasons why I shouldn't be a member but I persist in the hope that maybe one day someone either in the GC or new to it will actually wake up from the opium cloud & show some direly needed leadership in the right direction. Decide for yourself what's more stupid......feeding money into a seemingly black hole organisation, or trying to convince/deluding myself into thinking that our GC will fight for us at the risk of losing their jobs. Despite the odds I still believe in trying for change and at the moment I can afford to.
Everyone needs to get off their high horse and stop blaming the other side for the failure of the CPA pilot body in achieving better Ts&Cs. People are entitled to their opinion but when it starts to create a stalemate then the outcome is pretty obvious. It's no wonder everyone has a sore arse and is wondering why the hell nothing's getting done.
The dragon guys and gals deserve every cent of that payrise, well done all. And kudos to the DPA for sticking to the agenda.
I'm also a member of the AOA, i haven't any intention of giving that up either but it's becoming rather difficult to convince others why they should join. I believe in influencing by example but increasingly the example I'm setting as an AOA member is becoming a joke. I pay a % of my salary to a cause that is yielding squat. Right now could potentially be its finest hour. I'm disappointed to not even see a statement of support for the FAUs movement come out of the AOA.
Despite my misgivings I have no doubt that the GC are working on trying to resolve issues but the lack of updates, information and transparency is mystifying and defies logic. So balancing-scale wise there are many more reasons why I shouldn't be a member but I persist in the hope that maybe one day someone either in the GC or new to it will actually wake up from the opium cloud & show some direly needed leadership in the right direction. Decide for yourself what's more stupid......feeding money into a seemingly black hole organisation, or trying to convince/deluding myself into thinking that our GC will fight for us at the risk of losing their jobs. Despite the odds I still believe in trying for change and at the moment I can afford to.
Everyone needs to get off their high horse and stop blaming the other side for the failure of the CPA pilot body in achieving better Ts&Cs. People are entitled to their opinion but when it starts to create a stalemate then the outcome is pretty obvious. It's no wonder everyone has a sore arse and is wondering why the hell nothing's getting done.
malluh lite
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Payrise and beyond
A huge 'Well done' to the DPA 
for keeping up the pressure; however, let's not forget that many people said that the issues weren't just about the money, but that many other issues had to be addressed in order to 'fix' the problem.
The payrise is obviously a morale boost but it will only be a temporary boost if nothing is achieved on the rostering front.
What with the 'demise of the Classic', it's my hope that this short term payrise for the Flight Engineers hasn't gone unnoticed and that there might be some longer term prospects in hand to upgrade some of them to the right-hand seat... if that's their wish.
To the DPA... continue with your efforts to bring about 'change' to the CoS and that you remain sure-footed in your direction.
Once again; great work guys
.
TCF
for keeping up the pressure; however, let's not forget that many people said that the issues weren't just about the money, but that many other issues had to be addressed in order to 'fix' the problem.The payrise is obviously a morale boost but it will only be a temporary boost if nothing is achieved on the rostering front.
What with the 'demise of the Classic', it's my hope that this short term payrise for the Flight Engineers hasn't gone unnoticed and that there might be some longer term prospects in hand to upgrade some of them to the right-hand seat... if that's their wish.
To the DPA... continue with your efforts to bring about 'change' to the CoS and that you remain sure-footed in your direction.
Once again; great work guys
.TCF
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Shop Steward
Definitely no thread drift there, but in homage to its title I'll say it again, well done the DPA.
Re your response, it actually highlights the lack of awareness the GC is disseminating amongst the AOA body, I didn't know 2 of the guys had quit until I read your post. Is it just me who thinks that things like that are useful to know and should be posted on the AOA website? Those two guys might be some of the two that I definitely wanted on the GC and voted for on the last round.
Clearly I need to edumacate myself a little more about the GC structure, I was always under the impression that each of the members had equal weighting in implementing their opinion, didn't realise that it was chauffeured by a select few. Thanks for updating me. A little less ignorance on my part will help me make more informed decisions.
AOA GC, if any of you are reading this, I appreciate that your positions may seem thankless and I commend you all for putting yourselves on the radar. But as our helmsmen I also think it's about high time you guys started to trust the intentions and honour the consensus of the majority of your supporters, going the other way would make you no less different than CX management.
Definitely no thread drift there, but in homage to its title I'll say it again, well done the DPA.
Re your response, it actually highlights the lack of awareness the GC is disseminating amongst the AOA body, I didn't know 2 of the guys had quit until I read your post. Is it just me who thinks that things like that are useful to know and should be posted on the AOA website? Those two guys might be some of the two that I definitely wanted on the GC and voted for on the last round.
Clearly I need to edumacate myself a little more about the GC structure, I was always under the impression that each of the members had equal weighting in implementing their opinion, didn't realise that it was chauffeured by a select few. Thanks for updating me. A little less ignorance on my part will help me make more informed decisions.
AOA GC, if any of you are reading this, I appreciate that your positions may seem thankless and I commend you all for putting yourselves on the radar. But as our helmsmen I also think it's about high time you guys started to trust the intentions and honour the consensus of the majority of your supporters, going the other way would make you no less different than CX management.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but I have just compared the new KA payscales with the CX scales starting in January. The KA scales are still less than CX scales, so why all the cheering? If the KA scales had been 15% better than projected CX scales then we would have had something to cheer. Instead, CX management can use the broad smiles at KA to tell us in CX how well off we are and that we should be grateful. Am I missing something?:confused
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The DPA get a double figure pay rise and, as is stated in the subject of this thread, consider it an "average" increase. The AOA get their members a big fat ZERO percent increase, and still have the support of their sheepish membership.
Its no wonder why we havent gotten an increase. The AOA GC is defunct. The AOA members are all like battered wives; they keep taking the abuse and justify it by hoping it will change one day, the GC ignore my well-being cause they love me and are looking out for my best interest...
Maybe the DPA could set up a Battered AOA Member(BAM) Shelter and counsel them on standing up for themselves. Reminding them that they pay the GC not to beat the membership down, but to advance it.
Vote with your feet AOA lemmings...but dont leave CX, thats not whats broken...leave the AOA, or practice saying "thank you sir, may I have another".
AOA NO WAY, DPA A-OK!
Its no wonder why we havent gotten an increase. The AOA GC is defunct. The AOA members are all like battered wives; they keep taking the abuse and justify it by hoping it will change one day, the GC ignore my well-being cause they love me and are looking out for my best interest...
Maybe the DPA could set up a Battered AOA Member(BAM) Shelter and counsel them on standing up for themselves. Reminding them that they pay the GC not to beat the membership down, but to advance it.
Vote with your feet AOA lemmings...but dont leave CX, thats not whats broken...leave the AOA, or practice saying "thank you sir, may I have another".
AOA NO WAY, DPA A-OK!
Hawkeye,
In all honesty, did you ever think KA pilots would be ever earning more than CX pilots?? I believe the original aim of the DPA was to match KA B scale with CX B scale. Not quite there, but a huge improvement from the original offer a few months ago (which by the way ammounted to a pay cut - yes that's true).
Well done DPA, and what a refreshing change in the 'can do' way of thinking for some of the newer members of KA management.
b.
In all honesty, did you ever think KA pilots would be ever earning more than CX pilots?? I believe the original aim of the DPA was to match KA B scale with CX B scale. Not quite there, but a huge improvement from the original offer a few months ago (which by the way ammounted to a pay cut - yes that's true).
Well done DPA, and what a refreshing change in the 'can do' way of thinking for some of the newer members of KA management.
b.
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First and foremost congrats to the KA boys. You guys deserve it. KA is not the best airline in the world and you work most of the month.
As for the boys at CX we have a union that right now are sitting on their hands watching the world spin around. I anticipate a decline in membership over the next 6 months unless changes in attitude from the GC will take place. Sure its easy to blame the AoA - but who else are we to blame. Its seems they are doing NOTHING at all. NOTHING.
It seems to me the only light at the end of the tunnel is the fact that guys are walking away and that CX are unable to man the jets. Its only a matter of time before somebody higher up in the system will start to ask questions like; why there are airworthy 744s parked on the ground? The one to answer that ? can only bull**** for that long. Changes will come - one way or the other. Unfortunately my faith in the AoA is not there.
As for the boys at CX we have a union that right now are sitting on their hands watching the world spin around. I anticipate a decline in membership over the next 6 months unless changes in attitude from the GC will take place. Sure its easy to blame the AoA - but who else are we to blame. Its seems they are doing NOTHING at all. NOTHING.
It seems to me the only light at the end of the tunnel is the fact that guys are walking away and that CX are unable to man the jets. Its only a matter of time before somebody higher up in the system will start to ask questions like; why there are airworthy 744s parked on the ground? The one to answer that ? can only bull**** for that long. Changes will come - one way or the other. Unfortunately my faith in the AoA is not there.
It really seems to me that CX have accepted that they are going to have to merge the Dragonair and CX pilots. If they are all on the same salaries (or similar) they are half way there.
I guarantee you all won't be applauding Dragonair if CX puts some above you on the seniority list. Despite the complainants on PPRuNe they do not represent the majority of comms that the AOA gets from members and shouting or abusing people or CX gets you nowhere.
B-scaler has had many dialogues with the AOA but did not stand for the GC despite his avowed aims. I suspect he prefers to pass comment at his convenience rather than get involved in all aspects of GC membership. Unfortunately this reflects the majority of CX pilots and the possibility of 100% support for a dismissed individual or CC is laughable so why threaten it.
Points made on PPRuNe are very much taken on board despite what you may think and a number of claims on here are 100% incorrect. If members raised their queries with the AOA I'd be very surprised if they do not get an answer.
I guarantee you all won't be applauding Dragonair if CX puts some above you on the seniority list. Despite the complainants on PPRuNe they do not represent the majority of comms that the AOA gets from members and shouting or abusing people or CX gets you nowhere.
B-scaler has had many dialogues with the AOA but did not stand for the GC despite his avowed aims. I suspect he prefers to pass comment at his convenience rather than get involved in all aspects of GC membership. Unfortunately this reflects the majority of CX pilots and the possibility of 100% support for a dismissed individual or CC is laughable so why threaten it.
Points made on PPRuNe are very much taken on board despite what you may think and a number of claims on here are 100% incorrect. If members raised their queries with the AOA I'd be very surprised if they do not get an answer.
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KA pilots got a reasonable payrise for a number of reasons.
In no particular order
1) Contract compliance- despite TW fobbing cc off , it was admitted at times that it was causing havoc with the operation.
2) 85% membership and strong leadership of the DPA
3) Guys fed up with the lifestyle and voting with their feet (thank you, although sorry to see many of you go)
4)All that was written on PPrune (and the SCMP)!!! I'm certain this helped to reduce the number of new applicants, the SCMP was the Catalyst in removing TW
5) I understand it was observed by the new CX guys we have over here, that we are united on how and what things needed improving. We weren't bitch slapping each other (take a look at this thread
)
This offer still has to be voted on, it has many shortfalls and a few too many promises that things will be looked into ie roster agreements, child education allowances etc, but it's a good start.
Thanks John, Angus and the rest of the DPAC
FX
In no particular order
1) Contract compliance- despite TW fobbing cc off , it was admitted at times that it was causing havoc with the operation.
2) 85% membership and strong leadership of the DPA
3) Guys fed up with the lifestyle and voting with their feet (thank you, although sorry to see many of you go)
4)All that was written on PPrune (and the SCMP)!!! I'm certain this helped to reduce the number of new applicants, the SCMP was the Catalyst in removing TW
5) I understand it was observed by the new CX guys we have over here, that we are united on how and what things needed improving. We weren't bitch slapping each other (take a look at this thread
)This offer still has to be voted on, it has many shortfalls and a few too many promises that things will be looked into ie roster agreements, child education allowances etc, but it's a good start.
Thanks John, Angus and the rest of the DPAC
FX
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Busy B,
I don't agree that not standing for the GC negates your right to complain. Extending that argument I would not be able to complain about any person that influences my life - from CX management to politicians - because I have never asked to be in those positions. B scaler has a right to complain and he does so lucidly unlike some logic challenged posters.
IluvPX and bad air sucker - I feel your logic is flawed. You want to join a winning union - go to the US then and join an airline there. If you choose to stay in CX I can guarantee you one thing....without a union, we get nothing. With a union we 'might' get something.
CX shop steward - on the money. AOA leadership is currently running its own agenda that conflicts with the majority of the GC. Maybe the 3 vacant positions will attract some people who will like the current policy of 'sit back, do nothing and let the 3% payrises roll in'.
I don't agree that not standing for the GC negates your right to complain. Extending that argument I would not be able to complain about any person that influences my life - from CX management to politicians - because I have never asked to be in those positions. B scaler has a right to complain and he does so lucidly unlike some logic challenged posters.
IluvPX and bad air sucker - I feel your logic is flawed. You want to join a winning union - go to the US then and join an airline there. If you choose to stay in CX I can guarantee you one thing....without a union, we get nothing. With a union we 'might' get something.
CX shop steward - on the money. AOA leadership is currently running its own agenda that conflicts with the majority of the GC. Maybe the 3 vacant positions will attract some people who will like the current policy of 'sit back, do nothing and let the 3% payrises roll in'.
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Originally Posted by Numero Crunchero
If you choose to stay in CX I can guarantee you one thing....without a union, we get nothing. With a union we 'might' get something.
1. With a union(AOA), we got nothing(0%).
2. Without the union(AOA), we at least got something(3%)
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iluvPX
The AOA GC rejected 6% (3% x 2 years) and up to 4% in HDP (2% prorata and 2% 56hrs+). CX imposed 3% and 2% 56hr+ HDP.
So strictly speaking you are correct - the AOA got us nothing. How that justifies non membership as the right path is still beyond me. Still, I guess you will tell me the 15% non DPA members got them their payrise too!?
So strictly speaking you are correct - the AOA got us nothing. How that justifies non membership as the right path is still beyond me. Still, I guess you will tell me the 15% non DPA members got them their payrise too!?
NC,
"current policy of 'sit back, do nothing and let the 3% payrises roll in'."
Should I take this personally? I don't think thats true although the pace is frustrating for a number of reasons, not all GC induced.
I don't have any problem with people complaining, thats something the AOA expects to field. I do feel that those who treat it as a vocation should follow up and do some work.
In the UK there is a comedian who as a figure of fun spends his time saying
"you don't do it like that, do it like this" and never does anything
"current policy of 'sit back, do nothing and let the 3% payrises roll in'."
Should I take this personally? I don't think thats true although the pace is frustrating for a number of reasons, not all GC induced.
I don't have any problem with people complaining, thats something the AOA expects to field. I do feel that those who treat it as a vocation should follow up and do some work.
In the UK there is a comedian who as a figure of fun spends his time saying
"you don't do it like that, do it like this" and never does anything
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Hiya BusyB,
my criticism is directed at the "aoa leadership"! I know what the majority of the GC want to do and I agree with it. I resigned because the leadership is no longer democratic, but autocratic. I think it is fair to say that our Pres/VPs have a strict policy of doing nothing but wait. Unless things have changed since I left???
cheers
my criticism is directed at the "aoa leadership"! I know what the majority of the GC want to do and I agree with it. I resigned because the leadership is no longer democratic, but autocratic. I think it is fair to say that our Pres/VPs have a strict policy of doing nothing but wait. Unless things have changed since I left???
cheers
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KA vs CX
On salary alone you would be 42% ahead of CX in accumulated earnings after 10 years - that is around $3.4million HKD. After 20 years you would be 26% ahead of CX which equates to $5.6million HKD. This is based on 5 years to command in KA and 13 for CX - the KA assumption is purely a guess as who knows what will happen now we work for the same employers.
Their salary package is within 2.7% of the CX package for CNs and 1.4% for FOs, if you actually achieve 84credit hrs in CX. If you do around 56 hrs then the KA package is slightly ahead for FOs and about even for captains.
KA do get a travel allowance but their bonus scheme I think is a little shy of our 15.5% PF - could someone from KA please enlighten us as to your bonus scheme?
Good to see the KA package 'improved' to the same levels as existed in CX in 1992.
Their salary package is within 2.7% of the CX package for CNs and 1.4% for FOs, if you actually achieve 84credit hrs in CX. If you do around 56 hrs then the KA package is slightly ahead for FOs and about even for captains.
KA do get a travel allowance but their bonus scheme I think is a little shy of our 15.5% PF - could someone from KA please enlighten us as to your bonus scheme?
Good to see the KA package 'improved' to the same levels as existed in CX in 1992.