New Joiners - Unified First Officer Pay Scale
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New Joiners - Unified First Officer Pay Scale
I was given the thumbs up for an Australia DEFO Pax in early 2007. Likely course date early 2008. The documentation at the time indicated normal Bscale $120k FO1 pay. This new CoS08 UFO pay looks like being 90k for the 1st 3 years and an extra year on base, making it 4 minimum. That's almost a $100k pay cut over 3 years!
I reckon 90k is very skinny given the experience required to get the job as a DEFO Pax. If you're like me you'd be taking a serious pay cut if you accept it.
It applies 1 Jan 08 - ie to everyone who hasn't been given a course date I'd imagine.
As new joiners we have no right of reply except not taking the job. If what's above is what's on my contract offer I think that is exactly what I'll do.
Very dissapointing given the amount of time and effort it takes to jump through the HR hoops.
If you are in a similar situation to me, please knock back the job! It's the only way we can let them know that CoS08 is not enough.
If you're in CX, unsure if you can change this CoS through a vote. Either way please help out your peer wannabe's anyway you can, we appreciate it! Surely it'll make further pay cases harder to justify if someone else is doing your job for much less.
HC
I reckon 90k is very skinny given the experience required to get the job as a DEFO Pax. If you're like me you'd be taking a serious pay cut if you accept it.
It applies 1 Jan 08 - ie to everyone who hasn't been given a course date I'd imagine.
As new joiners we have no right of reply except not taking the job. If what's above is what's on my contract offer I think that is exactly what I'll do.
Very dissapointing given the amount of time and effort it takes to jump through the HR hoops.
If you are in a similar situation to me, please knock back the job! It's the only way we can let them know that CoS08 is not enough.
If you're in CX, unsure if you can change this CoS through a vote. Either way please help out your peer wannabe's anyway you can, we appreciate it! Surely it'll make further pay cases harder to justify if someone else is doing your job for much less.
HC
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Seems logical on the surface yeah? 90k vs 80K starting pay.
Cathay are recruiting us as FO's on an International full service carrier. Not as an FO on a budget airline inside Australia. Qantas are employing you as a an SO that still needs to do upgrades etc.
They're doing this to lessen the training burden by buying experience.
That's my argument, they're no longer BUYING the experience! They're expecting to get it for a bargain. It's the same (and quickly less) than an SO on QF.
Cathay are recruiting us as FO's on an International full service carrier. Not as an FO on a budget airline inside Australia. Qantas are employing you as a an SO that still needs to do upgrades etc.
They're doing this to lessen the training burden by buying experience.
That's my argument, they're no longer BUYING the experience! They're expecting to get it for a bargain. It's the same (and quickly less) than an SO on QF.
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Stranger Still
It is confirmed, CX is desperate and have lost the plot.
Q1 How much will a Y1 USA Freighter FO earn who joins 1 Jan 08?
A1 $73,440
Q2 How much will a Y1 USA Freighter FO earn who joined TODAY be earning, come 1 Jan 08?
A2 $65,412
Yes, CX will be paying the new joiner 12K more..................
UFO (new join) Existing
Y1 $73,440 $65,412
Y2 $74,904 $71,592
Y3 $76,404 $77,772 - just!
That should motivate the guys in the USA
If they do happen to be a little demotivated by this, CX can always dispatch the DFO for another round of glad handing. You know, remind them that - really it isn't about pensions, pay and the like; remind them that all they really want is to strap on a shiny new jet!!
UPS must be laughing its socks off.
Milly
Q1 How much will a Y1 USA Freighter FO earn who joins 1 Jan 08?
A1 $73,440
Q2 How much will a Y1 USA Freighter FO earn who joined TODAY be earning, come 1 Jan 08?
A2 $65,412
Yes, CX will be paying the new joiner 12K more..................
UFO (new join) Existing
Y1 $73,440 $65,412
Y2 $74,904 $71,592
Y3 $76,404 $77,772 - just!
That should motivate the guys in the USA
If they do happen to be a little demotivated by this, CX can always dispatch the DFO for another round of glad handing. You know, remind them that - really it isn't about pensions, pay and the like; remind them that all they really want is to strap on a shiny new jet!!
UPS must be laughing its socks off.
Milly
Last edited by Millstream; 13th Oct 2007 at 05:24.
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OK hud, but still, you're only worth what other company's will pay for you. NO-ONE in Australia pays over $90,000 plus allowances and super, for the first year. Regardless of 10,000 jet hours or 70 C-172 hours.
Unfortunately, it's still the best deal.......
Unfortunately, it's still the best deal.......
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Blogsey - are you for real????????
Please enlighten us with your analysis that this is the best deal.
Lets say you are an RAAF pilot with about 10 years flying experience. Your salary is about $107K(counting service allowance) and you get housing benefit of either reduced interest rate or subsidised housing that equates to another 10-15K before tax. So you would be taking a $25-30K pay cut to join CX. When I joined CX it was a 200% payrise...how things have changed.
Watch the salary figures for virgin blue(777) when they come out. Watch for jetstars new salary figures when they come out with 787. Watch for tiger airways figures. Watch for Etihad's figures when they finally sort out the aussie basing. I think you will find that the RAAF pay is lower than all but CX's.
Are you winding us up or just truly greatful to be earning $60K AUD as an SO in HKG?
Please enlighten us with your analysis that this is the best deal.
Lets say you are an RAAF pilot with about 10 years flying experience. Your salary is about $107K(counting service allowance) and you get housing benefit of either reduced interest rate or subsidised housing that equates to another 10-15K before tax. So you would be taking a $25-30K pay cut to join CX. When I joined CX it was a 200% payrise...how things have changed.
Watch the salary figures for virgin blue(777) when they come out. Watch for jetstars new salary figures when they come out with 787. Watch for tiger airways figures. Watch for Etihad's figures when they finally sort out the aussie basing. I think you will find that the RAAF pay is lower than all but CX's.
Are you winding us up or just truly greatful to be earning $60K AUD as an SO in HKG?
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NC,
firstly you're about $7k short on the max 2 stripe pay. edit: so yes, about a $40K pay cut with housing allowance (not including the 23% super we get....)
$60K as SO in HK? Wasn't referring to that. $92K on the unified DEFO scales. Are you saying any of those other airlines have a higher starting salary?? I didn't think so, but stand to be corrected...
firstly you're about $7k short on the max 2 stripe pay. edit: so yes, about a $40K pay cut with housing allowance (not including the 23% super we get....)
$60K as SO in HK? Wasn't referring to that. $92K on the unified DEFO scales. Are you saying any of those other airlines have a higher starting salary?? I didn't think so, but stand to be corrected...
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HUD,
You interviewed for the position that paid 122k. If it was 97k back then would you have bothered?
Also, could you bite your tongue at work, knowing that colleagues who potentially joined a day earlier are on 25k more a year?
The VB/J* argument can be softened (in my eyes) by the MUCH quicker career progression.
Finally.... your Airbus rating is FREE with CX and there is no bond. Take what you will from that.
Good luck with the ever moving goalposts.
NC, are Etihad planning an Oz basing? !!
MAX
You interviewed for the position that paid 122k. If it was 97k back then would you have bothered?
Also, could you bite your tongue at work, knowing that colleagues who potentially joined a day earlier are on 25k more a year?
The VB/J* argument can be softened (in my eyes) by the MUCH quicker career progression.
Finally.... your Airbus rating is FREE with CX and there is no bond. Take what you will from that.
Good luck with the ever moving goalposts.
NC, are Etihad planning an Oz basing? !!
MAX
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I have a friend in Virgin Blue and he started in the mid 90s - I think they are or shortly will have sorted out their EBA so I assume it will be a little higher.
Jetstar pay around 90ish now but from some inside intel I know they accept that once 787 comes in they will have to pay more for FO/CNs.
Virgin blue are expecting to pay around 200-240 for CN on 777 - take 60-65% of that figure to get FO starting pay.
Qantas - I am going to ignore first 2 years as to be honest, after reading EBA7 and talking to my mates there, I am confused. Not avoiding it to be manipulative - just don't like quoting rubbery numbers. After 2 years you can expect to be earning about 120K+ as an SO on 400. Pay after that goes up and down depending on which rank and which fleet. Senior SOs on 400 earn $160K plus. A mate of mine is a 1st year FO on the 400 and discounting allowances he will earn about 220-230K - but he seems to have a good handle on how to milk the system. 330 FOs are currently only earning around 150-160K due to very low hours. Junior 400 skippers earn over 300K whilst senior ones get close to 400K. I think 737skippers get 150-160 but not too sure. 330 skippers pay is low at moment as they are on MGH - but in a more normal situation they will be on 230-250K. Currently command is about 13+years but should improve depending on how they manage things with jetstar. Maybe AUSSIE or someone in the know could comment!?
Over a career you will earn over 30% more by working for QF or EK - but I haven't taken into account 3% CX payrise or result of EBA8 or any future EK payrises!
MAX
they were advertised a few months back under some other company name for SYD. A mate of mine involved said there was some snafu with CASA equivalent in the middle east - so once sorted out they will be offered again.
Blogsey,
I was working on FLTLT incr5, grade 10 with service allowance = 107K. What am I missing?
Jetstar pay around 90ish now but from some inside intel I know they accept that once 787 comes in they will have to pay more for FO/CNs.
Virgin blue are expecting to pay around 200-240 for CN on 777 - take 60-65% of that figure to get FO starting pay.
Qantas - I am going to ignore first 2 years as to be honest, after reading EBA7 and talking to my mates there, I am confused. Not avoiding it to be manipulative - just don't like quoting rubbery numbers. After 2 years you can expect to be earning about 120K+ as an SO on 400. Pay after that goes up and down depending on which rank and which fleet. Senior SOs on 400 earn $160K plus. A mate of mine is a 1st year FO on the 400 and discounting allowances he will earn about 220-230K - but he seems to have a good handle on how to milk the system. 330 FOs are currently only earning around 150-160K due to very low hours. Junior 400 skippers earn over 300K whilst senior ones get close to 400K. I think 737skippers get 150-160 but not too sure. 330 skippers pay is low at moment as they are on MGH - but in a more normal situation they will be on 230-250K. Currently command is about 13+years but should improve depending on how they manage things with jetstar. Maybe AUSSIE or someone in the know could comment!?
Over a career you will earn over 30% more by working for QF or EK - but I haven't taken into account 3% CX payrise or result of EBA8 or any future EK payrises!
MAX
they were advertised a few months back under some other company name for SYD. A mate of mine involved said there was some snafu with CASA equivalent in the middle east - so once sorted out they will be offered again.
Blogsey,
I was working on FLTLT incr5, grade 10 with service allowance = 107K. What am I missing?
Last edited by Numero Crunchero; 14th Oct 2007 at 04:12.
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What am I missing?
UMA $600 odd (couldn't find exact number)
http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/pac/Pay_Allow_Aug_07.pdf
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Max,
I don't think I would've interviewed for the $92 664 vice $118k odd.
Standard story, kids, mortgage. 30k a year with a single income is a significant difference.
To be honest, I was pretty stoked to see a company recruit to FO Pax on a reasonable package. Looks like it was a flash in time. Bloody shame.
Re the same work different pay thing. If I took the job that would always sting, especially the first 4 years. I don't think I'd be offering first shout to the boys in the bar!
HUD
I don't think I would've interviewed for the $92 664 vice $118k odd.
Standard story, kids, mortgage. 30k a year with a single income is a significant difference.
To be honest, I was pretty stoked to see a company recruit to FO Pax on a reasonable package. Looks like it was a flash in time. Bloody shame.
Re the same work different pay thing. If I took the job that would always sting, especially the first 4 years. I don't think I'd be offering first shout to the boys in the bar!
HUD
Last edited by HUD Cripple; 14th Oct 2007 at 09:47.
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<< If you're in CX, unsure if you can change this CoS through a vote. Either way please help out your peer wannabe's anyway you can, we appreciate it! Surely it'll make further pay cases harder to justify if someone else is doing your job for much less.>>
Don't worry HUD the B scalers will stop it from happening !
Don't worry HUD the B scalers will stop it from happening !
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Blogsey
I know of one Australian company that pays over AUD$100,000 for a first year FO and no cost for the rating. Once you have 500 on type the pay goes up by AUD$30,000. And yes you start at the higher pay if you have the 500 on type when you join.
(Wont say who it is but you need to have either a JAA licence or time on type)
I know of one Australian company that pays over AUD$100,000 for a first year FO and no cost for the rating. Once you have 500 on type the pay goes up by AUD$30,000. And yes you start at the higher pay if you have the 500 on type when you join.
(Wont say who it is but you need to have either a JAA licence or time on type)
A good mate just started with Virgin Blue
He is on: $95,000 plus $15,000 allowances for the first 6 mnths
Then he goes up to $103,000 plus $15,000 allowances.
CATHAY DE F/O PAY IS A SLAP IN THE FACE.
He is on: $95,000 plus $15,000 allowances for the first 6 mnths
Then he goes up to $103,000 plus $15,000 allowances.
CATHAY DE F/O PAY IS A SLAP IN THE FACE.
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Thanks Blogsey,
good to know for if anyone chooses to rejoin it is going to be around 114K + mortgage assistance;-)
Some of us in the fragrant harbour are considered valuable commodities to ronny raaf. I believe they are so short in edinburgh they have a wgcdr in an acting FLTLT QFI role!
good to know for if anyone chooses to rejoin it is going to be around 114K + mortgage assistance;-)
Some of us in the fragrant harbour are considered valuable commodities to ronny raaf. I believe they are so short in edinburgh they have a wgcdr in an acting FLTLT QFI role!
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some numbers
UPS 3rd year 106.000 usd
UPS 12 yr F.O 153.250
FEDEX 3rd yr FO 129.000 usd
FEDEX 12 yr. FO 158.000
Both Cpt max. 226.800 usd.
those are based on 84 hrs. line only (no per diem or overrides).
Question; Cathay as company consider itself as one of the best????
Or the above mentioned are superior??
what about UAL, where their morale is soo low right now...and their pay as been cut by 40%?????........
=================================================
CX 10 UFO pay 121$ x hr (usd)= 122.000 usd
Delta 10 yr. fo = 129 4x hr
Am. AA. 10 yr.Fo 135 x hr
United (with moral below the heels) 127 hr.
Just food for thoughts.
Poy
UPS 12 yr F.O 153.250
FEDEX 3rd yr FO 129.000 usd
FEDEX 12 yr. FO 158.000
Both Cpt max. 226.800 usd.
those are based on 84 hrs. line only (no per diem or overrides).
Question; Cathay as company consider itself as one of the best????
Or the above mentioned are superior??
what about UAL, where their morale is soo low right now...and their pay as been cut by 40%?????........
=================================================
CX 10 UFO pay 121$ x hr (usd)= 122.000 usd
Delta 10 yr. fo = 129 4x hr
Am. AA. 10 yr.Fo 135 x hr
United (with moral below the heels) 127 hr.
Just food for thoughts.
Poy
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Training??????????????//
what u mean training??
UAl 744 flies to bejing from ORD as well as China Airlines flies from bejing to ORD not???
Atlas cargo MIA Heatrow lands BAE Heatrow to MIA lands......................
Same Aircraft same procedures (different pay) different accents......
Do you know how many flights UAl does every day with almost 500 A/c's ???
?????
Continental Airlines B777 crew had to shut down an engine few months back over the Pacific....................
UAl 744 flies to bejing from ORD as well as China Airlines flies from bejing to ORD not???
Atlas cargo MIA Heatrow lands BAE Heatrow to MIA lands......................
Same Aircraft same procedures (different pay) different accents......
Do you know how many flights UAl does every day with almost 500 A/c's ???
?????
Continental Airlines B777 crew had to shut down an engine few months back over the Pacific....................