C.O.S 08 - You're kidding me

[ACMS]

Giggleswick: this would be a funny story if it wasn't true. But it is...



Another 10 years at A scale.....................who needs the lotto

[jobe]

Mate,I've actually been present when an A-scale BTC was bitching that he couldn't afford to retire at 55.
Hey,I've got a great idea,abolish the A-scale starting now and the savings can be used to enhance a new single salary scale.

As an aside,I was in conversation recently with that most interesting of species,the "A-scale wife". For some reason the conversation turned and she said to me "...if you hadn't joined there would be no B-scale". Quite.
Did she form that opinion herself? More likely she was quoting someone else.I wonder who that might be?

[ACMS]

yeah I've been with A scalers that bitch and moan about their pay. They don't know how lucky they are. Most think there is very little difference between pay scales!! how dumb is that
But...............we should be trying to move up to their level and not bring them down to ours.

[elgringo]

so???

all the sarcasm aside..what are the mighty CX PILOTS going to do about this insulting offer?

I personally don't even think it worth acknowledging much less talking about or voting. It is pathetic. I think we should follow the example of the NW pilots...

[ACMS]

Let me see: B scale Captains: 50% vote NO
B scale F/O + S/O: 100% vote NO
A Scale Captains: 100% vote YES
A Scale F/O's: ???? god knows
Will that be enough to get it over the line? NO
VOTE NO

[jobe]

Just so that you get the full picture, the difference between "A" & "B" scale at the moment is about HK$1,000,000 per year. About half in salary,half in provident fund.(The old P-fund is huge compared to that Fidelty crock of s**t that is thrust upon us)

B-scaler are you out there? We need to hear from you bro.

[cpdude]

ACMS, what makes you think 50% of B scale Capt's would vote yes? Do you really think they want to fill their roster with freighter flights?

The only people I can see saying yes are A scalers 54+ who want the extension now at A scale salaries. Younger A scalers can afford to wait for a better package and not fly the freighter while waiting.

I predict a 90% NO vote!

[The Management]

They are going to sign if they know what is best for them. Do you really think the pilots will do anything? Our extendees will do all the flying. Most pilots are talking as if it is voted in and they can do nothing, they are the smart ones. Follow them.

Ask your friends if they will do anything, I think not. Why? Because they are scared and they have no place to go. Where will you go, Air India, Korean, Jet Airways, Jetstar, Virgin Blue, don’t make me laugh. You will not go to legacy carriers because of seniority. Most would be shocked to do more than 3 sectors a day. I am sure Easy and Ryan do at least 6 to 7. Most of you don’t want to work that much.

Just accept it, you have lost and will never get what YOU think you are worth. Plus you are all expendable. We just need a couple. I wish some of you would test OUR resolve. You are a pathetic little group.

You may get some profit share, but we may have to change the formula again. We will let you know by December. Fuel prices are high, we are still debating the 13 th month. May have to put a cap on it, that way all the office staff receive a full month but we take away from the pilots. Why? Because we can!

My bonus will be huge this year and I thank you from the bottom of MY BONUS. You are really a pathetic bunch. Here's to easy living.


The Management

[jobe]

I only know of one A-scale 744 pax pilot who doesn't fly the freighter. And believe me I've scoped out the master roster pretty thoroughly.

[ACMS]

The Management: try coming to the 777. We do 3 sector days. Not unusual to complete 10 sectors in 4 days around Asia. We could do 4 sector days too if they were 1 hour flights with 20 to 30 min turnarounds ya dick head.

And I can get a nice job flying 777's for EK, KE, and Virgin Australia. So pull ya head in or I might just go.

moron

[cpdude]

There is no disgrace nor danger in voting NO!

The Management is probably correct in that CX could or will impose a contract on us but I say let them force it on us but show them with a vote what we think about it.

They can impose DEFO and Age 65 but they cannot force us to fly freighter aircraft! If we allow them to close ASL we will lose the FACA. Just watch the 400 roster go to crap if that happens.

As for "profit share"...it doesn't exist! It's just a tease from management.

[ACMS]

CPDUDE: most B scale Captains are on the 777 or the Bus, not too much freighter flying there. I guessed at 50% because I figure a lot of B scale Captains will be resigned to only getting a small pay rise and they don't care about F/O's and S/O's slow promotion rates below them.

[Harbour Dweller]

As ACMS said there are lots of other opportunities that exist for CX pilots.

Better still, more choice for possible new joiners with better packages elsewhere.

Does Management really believe they are going to attract DEFO's or SO's as they have previously looking at COS08.

Unlike what the 3rd floor believes the gloss isn't that shiny

[XCX-SOHAPPY]

I'm voting YES.

[CSA]

Bottom Line

When I came to CX, B scales were put on the table, and I signed up to work for that to age 55. The A scalers were fortunate enough to turn up when there was more on the table, good luck to them. I have always defended the right of the A scalers to get what they signed up for.

Now we are talking about something different, 55 - 65. If the company is willing to pay A scales for 55 - 65, then that what we all should get. I have been condemned to being paid less than the guy next to me for doing the same job so far at Cathay, but why should that be the case for 55 - 65 which is a whole new deal. It must be a common scale.

And please don't be misled into believing the negotiation team could have no bearing on this deal. I have seen pay negotiations in the past, there is a certain amount of steering you can do form the AOA side of the table. They were obviously happy with the general trend.

I thought that most pilots (and the company) now generally concede the initial decision to split pay scales was not a good idea for anyone. Lets not do it again!!!!

[ACMS]

I see you are X CX.

I would say you have already voted with your feet.

[Five Green]

Nailed it !

CSA :

I think you nailed it ! We should get the same scale for the additional 10 years. Not that I am going to be anywhere near an airplane then (please oh please no !!)

As for N. America I think it git hosed because no one on the negotiating team understands N.American pay packets. Therefore when presented to the mgmnt in the info gathering stage some serious math mistakes were made. Resulting in the company assuming they can shaft the N Americans more than the rest !!!

Good thing I have that eastern block passport. Think I will go back to the Stans and fly !

As for freighter flying. You could not pay me enough to spend that much time away from Home. Keep your deal I am voting NO NO NO and when they force it on us I will stay on COS99.

Peace out.

[BScaler]

CoS 08

Ladies and Gentlemen,

There are not many positive posts regarding what has been released by the AOA concerning CoS 08 so far, and I share the negative sentiment expressed by many.

I would encourage as many of you who are eligible, to post your comments, both for and against this agreement, on the AOA website under 'Members' Corner - Forums'. There are threads set up for comment there, and I am sure the GC will consider them as they consider whether or not to recommend this deal to the AOA membership.

I agree that, apart from the A-Scale community and a minority of the more junior of our colleagues, CoS 08 appears to offer little to the majority of the aircrew community at a time when the demand for pilots is at an all-time high, and the company has posted record interim profits.

Here are a few initial points to consider when looking at the incomplete picture we have been presented with thus far on CoS 08:

• it offers a pitiful pay rise bearing in mind the length of time since CoS 99 was minted, the productivity increases aircrew have given in that intervening period, not to mention the pressure that the introduction of Age 65 retirement takes off the recruiting department;
• further, the pay rise is not retrospective, but takes effect well into the future;
• junior officers' command prospects are not protected from the effects of a possible industry slowdown by any mechanism. Mitigation is offered to junior officers by allowing them the choice to remain on CoS 99, in which case they receive bypass pay for those captains employed beyond age 55, but command time will inevitably be affected. Professional advancement has intrinsic value that can not simply be measured in dollar terms, hence this being an undesireable feature of the CoS 08 agreement;
• the DEFO proposal, despite improvements, still amounts to offering new joiners lesser conditions than what we enjoy right now on CoS 99. The Company currently employs new joiner passenger DEFOs on CoS 99. The fact that they also employ freighter DEFOs on lesser conditions is a scenario the Company introduced in past years to save them money. We should not have to agree to lesser CoS for new joiners just to help the Company out of a mess they created in the first place. If the Company desires that all officers fly both passenger and freighter aircraft in the future, then the Company should offer passenger terms and conditions to all officers, just as they did in the past when this same arrangement was in place;
• some A-Scale colleagues are currently accepting less than B-Scale conditions to extend their employment. 'Market Forces' would suggest that the proposal under CoS 08 for full A-Scale remuneration and expat terms for continuation of employment of these officers to age 65, is generous, particularly seeing as the A-Scale Provident Fund was designed to provide for a comfortable retirement at age 55;
• bearing this in mind, I cannot see any justification for an increase in A-Scale remuneration at this time, until B-Scale reaches A-Scale salary scales. Note that I do not advocate a reduction in A-Scale pay, just a hold until B reaches A. It has been 14 years since the introduction of B-Scales and the 'advance A-Scales at all costs and eventually bring B up to A...' argument has run it's course and been found wanting. I believe, therefore, that the amount allocated to increasing A-Scale remuneration in this agreement should be applied to B-Scales first, in an effort to bring aircrew pay scales into line with each other, and then have the scales progress upwards together in unity. Any fair-minded A-Scale officer could not have any serious issue with this proposal, especially as A-Scale officers stand to gain 10 bonus years of employment;
• this agreement does not address the concerns of LEPs in that no provision has been made to take some of the money in the pot and apply it to an LEP Housing Allowance in an attempt to align CoS for all members of the aircrew community here at Cathay.

The points I have laid out so far are not exhaustive. Bear in mind that what we are privy to thus far is just the bare bones. The real meat of the agreement has yet to be released to the aircrew community. The devil is always in the detail and I am sure the detail in this agreement will receive alot of attention.

My challenge to those in the GC considering whether or not to endorse CoS 08 to the AOA membership, is to present the entire argument for the membership's consideration. The pros and the cons. Leave nothing out, present both sides of the argument, and allow the membership to mull over the good and the bad equally.

I look forward to the release of further details of the agreement, and in particular the recommendation by the GC as to whether or not they believe ratification of CoS 08 to be in the best interests of the aircrew community.

BScaler

[jobe]

Smokescreen

You didn't figure it out yet? The nickel & dime payrise/HDP is pure smokescreen.The real driver behind COs '08 is the "Old Boy Network" on the 3rd floor awarding themselves & their crony mates an extra 10 years on the A-scale. Porsches & P-51's are important you know.

[junior_man]

If a freighter guy in US signs onto this it is a paycut from year four on.
If you don't sign onto it, the new hires will make more in their first year than you. (but you will make more when you go to pax fleet)
And hopefully there will be a slot for you to join pax fleet at year four or you will be hosed and stuck on the freighter.
Still trying to figure out what is good in this if you are not 54 years old.