CX KA intergration- Food for thought
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CX KA intergration- Food for thought
So CX has bought KA. So what now for the Cockpit crew seniority?
In my humble opinion all KA Pilots employed before the purchase date should go behind all CX Pilots employed before the purchase date. Any pilot ( CX OR KA ) employed after that date should go on the bottom of the list.
Naturally all KA Pilot's should be protected in their respective positions from CX Pilot's coming across to steel their commands. Fair enough
My question is this. Has CX recruitment bothered to tell new hires ( since the buy out of KA ) that they will be junior to all the KA crew?? damn important don't you think??
I've seen this happen before in other companies, damn mess followed with a lot of annoyed people losing 200+ numbers after a correction.
Just food for thought.
Any opinions?
In my humble opinion all KA Pilots employed before the purchase date should go behind all CX Pilots employed before the purchase date. Any pilot ( CX OR KA ) employed after that date should go on the bottom of the list.
Naturally all KA Pilot's should be protected in their respective positions from CX Pilot's coming across to steel their commands. Fair enough
My question is this. Has CX recruitment bothered to tell new hires ( since the buy out of KA ) that they will be junior to all the KA crew?? damn important don't you think??
I've seen this happen before in other companies, damn mess followed with a lot of annoyed people losing 200+ numbers after a correction.
Just food for thought.
Any opinions?
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Agreed
Understatement of the year !
I think (IMHO) that CX will try and keep the two seperate. Similar to how they have set up Air Hong Kong. Similar in that by keeping the two seperate they can realise cost savings on crewing. The Air Hong Kong pilots that did come over came at the bottom.
The other problem is, they slowly erode KA's contract (more effectively than ours that is) then they could take over some of CX routes with the lower cost subsidiary. As long as they use the KA brand (and KA colored aircraft) that should not work on the international routes where the CX brand is the main selling point. There is the possibility of KA expansion (or KA pilot group expansion within a segregated CX pilot pool) on the lower contract while CX slows and with it the career progression.
We already have some cross over as a certain manager's spouse is taking a KA base in Australia could ne be a DEFO aus ?
Whatever happens though I think it is gonna get a little messy.
Ciao
I think (IMHO) that CX will try and keep the two seperate. Similar to how they have set up Air Hong Kong. Similar in that by keeping the two seperate they can realise cost savings on crewing. The Air Hong Kong pilots that did come over came at the bottom.
The other problem is, they slowly erode KA's contract (more effectively than ours that is) then they could take over some of CX routes with the lower cost subsidiary. As long as they use the KA brand (and KA colored aircraft) that should not work on the international routes where the CX brand is the main selling point. There is the possibility of KA expansion (or KA pilot group expansion within a segregated CX pilot pool) on the lower contract while CX slows and with it the career progression.
We already have some cross over as a certain manager's spouse is taking a KA base in Australia could ne be a DEFO aus ?
Whatever happens though I think it is gonna get a little messy.
Ciao
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@ Five Green,
I thought that CX had a no poaching/gentlemans agreement with Air hong kong???, so infact Air hong kong is a completely separate entity although partly owned CX, do they have a separate seniority list?
can u explain or shed some light?
X
I thought that CX had a no poaching/gentlemans agreement with Air hong kong???, so infact Air hong kong is a completely separate entity although partly owned CX, do they have a separate seniority list?
can u explain or shed some light?
X
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xdc9er
They do now. Originally CX bought in to Air Hong Kong and then eventually bought it all. When that happened they integrated the Air Hong Kong crew off the then classics and moved them to the 400 freighter and occasionally directly to pax. Then they bought the A-300s moved a few cx managers and pilot managers over, then seperated the operation. Now it is a much lower contract and no chance of moving to CX. Although stand by for new update, as at CX nothing stays the same for too long !!
They do now. Originally CX bought in to Air Hong Kong and then eventually bought it all. When that happened they integrated the Air Hong Kong crew off the then classics and moved them to the 400 freighter and occasionally directly to pax. Then they bought the A-300s moved a few cx managers and pilot managers over, then seperated the operation. Now it is a much lower contract and no chance of moving to CX. Although stand by for new update, as at CX nothing stays the same for too long !!
ACMS
Point 1 - Why should CX be advising new hires of their juniority reference KA. There is at this stage no merging of seniority lists therefore there is nothing for them to advise.
Point 2 - Yeah good one, all the KA guys go to the bottom, so the No1 guy on the KA list with 21 years of service, manager, TIRE etc etc goes behing the 220 hour S/O cadet who joined CX yesterday. Good to see you have put a lot of thought into how to destroy careers (ie lbottom of bidding rights pile, last to get leave as requested etc etc). But still - if it works for you - well that's all that matters then eh??!!!
Point 3 - Your scheme will cost CX billions. So much wasted and costly command training before they finally get down to the guys who can actually pass a command. (hey, you asked for it)
Point 1 - Why should CX be advising new hires of their juniority reference KA. There is at this stage no merging of seniority lists therefore there is nothing for them to advise.
Point 2 - Yeah good one, all the KA guys go to the bottom, so the No1 guy on the KA list with 21 years of service, manager, TIRE etc etc goes behing the 220 hour S/O cadet who joined CX yesterday. Good to see you have put a lot of thought into how to destroy careers (ie lbottom of bidding rights pile, last to get leave as requested etc etc). But still - if it works for you - well that's all that matters then eh??!!!
Point 3 - Your scheme will cost CX billions. So much wasted and costly command training before they finally get down to the guys who can actually pass a command. (hey, you asked for it)
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Man from la mancha
I remember reading a great line..."seek first to understand before trying to be understood". Or perhaps you should look up prejudice....pre - judice. From other posts from ACMS I think he is simply stirring the pot here...being provocative for the sake of getting a response. Your well thought out post does you credit and explains to me why you are most probably NOT in the LHS!
The ability to spell is not directly correlated with intelligence. I do think ACMS tends to be a little 'in your face' at times, but if you look past the emotive language he generally makes a good point. In this case, how are we(if required) going to integrate the 2 seniority lists. One option is as he suggests, CX senior. Another option is to quarantine both seniority lists until the most junior KA member could be a captain in CX....anyone joining from say 1/1/07 could be on the common seniority list and move between companies accordingly.
Anyway DQ, why slander an unknown person when it is so much more intellectually challenging and fun to discuss the issue at hand?????
I remember reading a great line..."seek first to understand before trying to be understood". Or perhaps you should look up prejudice....pre - judice. From other posts from ACMS I think he is simply stirring the pot here...being provocative for the sake of getting a response. Your well thought out post does you credit and explains to me why you are most probably NOT in the LHS!
The ability to spell is not directly correlated with intelligence. I do think ACMS tends to be a little 'in your face' at times, but if you look past the emotive language he generally makes a good point. In this case, how are we(if required) going to integrate the 2 seniority lists. One option is as he suggests, CX senior. Another option is to quarantine both seniority lists until the most junior KA member could be a captain in CX....anyone joining from say 1/1/07 could be on the common seniority list and move between companies accordingly.
Anyway DQ, why slander an unknown person when it is so much more intellectually challenging and fun to discuss the issue at hand?????
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2 points to make
1. Dont assume automatic intelligence in the LHS. They are just like the rest of us. Some are quite ordinary.
2. There is nothing 'we' can do about the merging of the 2 lists. Its laughable to assume 'we' have any say in the matter.
Good discussion though...
1. Dont assume automatic intelligence in the LHS. They are just like the rest of us. Some are quite ordinary.
2. There is nothing 'we' can do about the merging of the 2 lists. Its laughable to assume 'we' have any say in the matter.
Good discussion though...
Thread Starter
Don Quixote
And a very good evening to you too.
, were you drunk when you wrote the crap I see above? The MS word spell checker seemed quite happy with my spelling, but thanks for your concern I'm touched you care.
rodney rude
where do I start?????????
Cathay Pacific Airways bought the little ship KA. Not the other way around. FACT.
I was in an Australian airline ( shall we call it Airline A ) that bought another Airline ( Airline B ), all the guys in Airline B went to the bottom of the Airline A list. Anyone ( from both Airlines) that joined after that date went to the bottom of the combined list. Six months later the IRC ruled that Pilots employed by Airline A after the buyout date had to go behind Airline B's Pilots,because their date of joining was post buyout date. 20 odd Pilots lost 220 numbers overnight. A few pissed off people that year.
This is very important to anyone thinking of joing KA or CX. I don't care what you say this is worth talking about and I'm not trying to stir any pot. This occured 19 years ago and I can see it happening again.
Point 1: You are correct, nothing "AT THIS STAGE" but stay tuned, anything is possible on the road to screwing Pilots
Point 2: I have a great respect for anyone at KA, however I really don't give a flying frig if the number 1 guy in Dragonair is a BTC, STC, ITC, YYC, GGC or even a LLB.....HE GOES BEHIND ALL THE CX GUYS. If you re-read my post above you will see I suggest that all KA Pilots should be protected in their positions. So a junior S/O cannot take your command. Anyway Cx will not allow a 200 hr cadet to take your position just yet, they still need your experience in the big white jet.
You're saying that someone who has been in CX for 16 years will be out bid by a KA person of 17 years? For basings, type and staff travel? yeah right, get real bud.
Point 3: How does this cost Cx Billions?
Over to you "oh wise one" what should we do?
mairyhinge
It is an important issue we should consider. Although certain parties above seem to want to turn it into a personal dick measuring contest.
ACMS
You don't sound smart enough to occupy the left window seat as your profile says. OH, I get it, while the Captain is taking his rest, correct?, with an F/O watching you I hope.
Get a life Tosser, and do a spell check next time you post.
You don't sound smart enough to occupy the left window seat as your profile says. OH, I get it, while the Captain is taking his rest, correct?, with an F/O watching you I hope.
Get a life Tosser, and do a spell check next time you post.
, were you drunk when you wrote the crap I see above? The MS word spell checker seemed quite happy with my spelling, but thanks for your concern I'm touched you care.rodney rude
ACMS
Point 1 - Why should CX be advising new hires of their juniority reference KA. There is at this stage no merging of seniority lists therefore there is nothing for them to advise.
Point 2 - Yeah good one, all the KA guys go to the bottom, so the No1 guy on the KA list with 21 years of service, manager, TIRE etc etc goes behing the 220 hour S/O cadet who joined CX yesterday. Good to see you have put a lot of thought into how to destroy careers (ie lbottom of bidding rights pile, last to get leave as requested etc etc). But still - if it works for you - well that's all that matters then eh??!!!
Point 3 - Your scheme will cost CX billions. So much wasted and costly command training before they finally get down to the guys who can actually pass a command. (hey, you asked for it)
Point 1 - Why should CX be advising new hires of their juniority reference KA. There is at this stage no merging of seniority lists therefore there is nothing for them to advise.
Point 2 - Yeah good one, all the KA guys go to the bottom, so the No1 guy on the KA list with 21 years of service, manager, TIRE etc etc goes behing the 220 hour S/O cadet who joined CX yesterday. Good to see you have put a lot of thought into how to destroy careers (ie lbottom of bidding rights pile, last to get leave as requested etc etc). But still - if it works for you - well that's all that matters then eh??!!!
Point 3 - Your scheme will cost CX billions. So much wasted and costly command training before they finally get down to the guys who can actually pass a command. (hey, you asked for it)
Cathay Pacific Airways bought the little ship KA. Not the other way around. FACT.
I was in an Australian airline ( shall we call it Airline A ) that bought another Airline ( Airline B ), all the guys in Airline B went to the bottom of the Airline A list. Anyone ( from both Airlines) that joined after that date went to the bottom of the combined list. Six months later the IRC ruled that Pilots employed by Airline A after the buyout date had to go behind Airline B's Pilots,because their date of joining was post buyout date. 20 odd Pilots lost 220 numbers overnight. A few pissed off people that year.
This is very important to anyone thinking of joing KA or CX. I don't care what you say this is worth talking about and I'm not trying to stir any pot. This occured 19 years ago and I can see it happening again.
Point 1: You are correct, nothing "AT THIS STAGE" but stay tuned, anything is possible on the road to screwing Pilots
Point 2: I have a great respect for anyone at KA, however I really don't give a flying frig if the number 1 guy in Dragonair is a BTC, STC, ITC, YYC, GGC or even a LLB.....HE GOES BEHIND ALL THE CX GUYS. If you re-read my post above you will see I suggest that all KA Pilots should be protected in their positions. So a junior S/O cannot take your command. Anyway Cx will not allow a 200 hr cadet to take your position just yet, they still need your experience in the big white jet.
You're saying that someone who has been in CX for 16 years will be out bid by a KA person of 17 years? For basings, type and staff travel? yeah right, get real bud.
Point 3: How does this cost Cx Billions?
Over to you "oh wise one" what should we do?
mairyhinge
Good discussion though...
Last edited by ACMS; 16th Nov 2006 at 11:11.
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ACMS is right that this issue will need to be addressed one way or another eventually.
What I will not accept though is that it is best addressed in the manner we have witnessed on this very first page of replies! As always emotive issues will turn into a testosterone / alcohol fuelled, dick measuring exercise in pointless back stabbing and will inevitably make us look foolish and divided in front of the management who are all too happy to watch us tear ourselves apart.
Our fight is not with each other, it is with the people who intend to do our conditions real harm by playing us off against each other. We will all have to swallow something unpalatable to find the best solution to this problem if we are to maintain any sort of unity and fight a common cause. Remaining arrogant and pig headed just because you perceive yourself to be part of the bigger airline will only serve to screw everybody in the end.
What I will not accept though is that it is best addressed in the manner we have witnessed on this very first page of replies! As always emotive issues will turn into a testosterone / alcohol fuelled, dick measuring exercise in pointless back stabbing and will inevitably make us look foolish and divided in front of the management who are all too happy to watch us tear ourselves apart.
Our fight is not with each other, it is with the people who intend to do our conditions real harm by playing us off against each other. We will all have to swallow something unpalatable to find the best solution to this problem if we are to maintain any sort of unity and fight a common cause. Remaining arrogant and pig headed just because you perceive yourself to be part of the bigger airline will only serve to screw everybody in the end.
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What I love is that you CX guys think that YOU have bought KA out
Therefore you think you own us. Actually CX owns KA.
They will do what they want. You may be surprised with what they do.
Past merger strategies may not apply in this case
Gliderboy
Therefore you think you own us. Actually CX owns KA.
They will do what they want. You may be surprised with what they do.
Past merger strategies may not apply in this case
Gliderboy
ACMs
Settle down a bit mate. Chill. I see your points. Look at it this way - if KA bought out HK Express none of us here would want to see those guys go senior to us in OUR airline. So i know where you are coming from. But i just think a little bit more thought than what you were applying is needed. No doubt your solution is best for the CX guys, but tragic for half the KA guys - the F/Os. You said my position would be safe against and S/O taking my command. I am currently an F/O - so under your system your S/O gets a command before me. AS an F/O with kids i just break even here. Extend my command out by another 8 years or so and myself and many of my buddies will run. Surely not what CX or KA wants at a time of high recruitment.
Now, on a more mature personal note DO NOT start crapping on about dick measuring contests when you re writing comments like "CX has bought the little ship KA...." that is dick measuring at its best. Enough hypocrisy.
My comment about how it will cost CX billions. i thought the meaning was obvious - but for you I will spell it out. It was my tongue in cheek jibe at going through all the more "senior CX pilots" who at the moment are failing in dumbfounding numbers - add up the cost of waste training until you get to the KA guys who can actually pass. VERY TONUGUE IN CHEEK. Before all the CX guys get ****faced at me - the high failure rate cannot come down to incompetent pilots, it just doesn't make sense. I know you are all highly competent and MUST be being let down by systemic problems. But no doubt management will continue to blame the drivers and not start asking themselves is there something wrong with the system.
And as far as I am concerned - I see no inevitability of a merged seniority list. And I know I stand to be wrong just like those with other opinions stand to be wrong
Settle down a bit mate. Chill. I see your points. Look at it this way - if KA bought out HK Express none of us here would want to see those guys go senior to us in OUR airline. So i know where you are coming from. But i just think a little bit more thought than what you were applying is needed. No doubt your solution is best for the CX guys, but tragic for half the KA guys - the F/Os. You said my position would be safe against and S/O taking my command. I am currently an F/O - so under your system your S/O gets a command before me. AS an F/O with kids i just break even here. Extend my command out by another 8 years or so and myself and many of my buddies will run. Surely not what CX or KA wants at a time of high recruitment.
Now, on a more mature personal note DO NOT start crapping on about dick measuring contests when you re writing comments like "CX has bought the little ship KA...." that is dick measuring at its best. Enough hypocrisy.
My comment about how it will cost CX billions. i thought the meaning was obvious - but for you I will spell it out. It was my tongue in cheek jibe at going through all the more "senior CX pilots" who at the moment are failing in dumbfounding numbers - add up the cost of waste training until you get to the KA guys who can actually pass. VERY TONUGUE IN CHEEK. Before all the CX guys get ****faced at me - the high failure rate cannot come down to incompetent pilots, it just doesn't make sense. I know you are all highly competent and MUST be being let down by systemic problems. But no doubt management will continue to blame the drivers and not start asking themselves is there something wrong with the system.
And as far as I am concerned - I see no inevitability of a merged seniority list. And I know I stand to be wrong just like those with other opinions stand to be wrong
Thread Starter
rodney rude
ok I'll settle down. Deep breath........................
I suggest that all KA Pilots should have their promotions protected. I guess a Y seniority list should be effected until all get commands? Apparently this was used in the past with other integrations in Oz although I'm not too sure exactly how it worked. NO ONE should be disadvantaged here.
I was putting forward an idea that I think needs to be addressed sooner or later.
that's why I said
right before I was called a tosser for daring to open a topic for discussion
So my apologies if I reacted a little bit.
ok I'll settle down. Deep breath........................
I suggest that all KA Pilots should have their promotions protected. I guess a Y seniority list should be effected until all get commands? Apparently this was used in the past with other integrations in Oz although I'm not too sure exactly how it worked. NO ONE should be disadvantaged here.
I was putting forward an idea that I think needs to be addressed sooner or later.
that's why I said
Just food for thought.
Any opinions?
Any opinions?
So my apologies if I reacted a little bit.
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Take-away
Seems to me that there is more frustration on behalf of the CX boys here than on behalf of the "bought" KA boys. Must be due to the fact that command times in KA have averaged the two year mark, and that bugs the cr*p out of the CX boys stuck in the right hand seat (always has). If KA is the "cheaper" of the two to run, get used to this state of affairs in the years to come. CX management will always be pragmatic.
Over the course of a carreer, command time is what counts, be it on a A320, A330, or a 744F. Once in the LHS those years are pretty lucrative. I know which airline I would have chosen had I been younger, "take-over" or not.
Over the course of a carreer, command time is what counts, be it on a A320, A330, or a 744F. Once in the LHS those years are pretty lucrative. I know which airline I would have chosen had I been younger, "take-over" or not.
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Check your six !
ACMs
You said my position would be safe against and S/O taking my command. I am currently an F/O - so under your system your S/O gets a command before me. AS an F/O with kids i just break even here. Extend my command out by another 8 years or so and myself and many of my buddies will run. Surely not what CX or KA wants at a time of high recruitment.
You said my position would be safe against and S/O taking my command. I am currently an F/O - so under your system your S/O gets a command before me. AS an F/O with kids i just break even here. Extend my command out by another 8 years or so and myself and many of my buddies will run. Surely not what CX or KA wants at a time of high recruitment.
Mr. Rude, as to your above quote, presumably you would be on CX pay scale while you wait for command and as an FO on said scale with kids I can tell you that I am better off than at home (for the moment). So you will not see anyone "running off" , be that AUS or where ever. Also while you wait for command at CX you can take a base. Pretty good compared to waiting it out for 10 years here, what with worsening pollution etc.
Also food for thought ALL of the Air Hong Kong guys went to bottom of the seniority list but the FOs kept their seats (if they passed the course, but all did) but their seniority was lower than some SOs who have subsequently caught up. As for Captains I am not awhere of how that all fell into the CX system. I know some may have re-qualified and are on the freighter but some did not and are pax fleet FOs. Of course this was easily done as we were only talking about less than 60 guys (I wait to be corrected on exact numbers) With KA much bigger issue.
My two cents worth is this. CX continues KA brand into China and on routes suited to smaller planes or increased frequency. These might be the routes that the newer LCC begin to operate. Offer more freq and lower the price to compete. So they will keep a portion of the flight crew seperate. Any routes that CX wants to fly the CX flag on or perhaps take over some but not all of the departure/arrival slots in order to gain market awareness and perhaps larger market share. CX will poach appropriate crew from KA, dependant on the number of aircraft to be transferred. They will transfer the FOs with not too much problem but will still play silly buggers with the Commanders ( until you have proven youself in the CX culture). CX's need for commander's will have then reached critical levels so they may not be able to bugger too many commands up, but they will do some. Meanwhile the rest of the FO CX list will watch as some of the KA Captains move into CX left seats. There is the possibility that the KA guys would be used to fill the freighter slots but that would mean the loss of type rated guys staying on their rated machines.
Just a guess !
It will be justified under the guise of expansion being good for all !
GET YOUR HELMETS ON BOYS
Last edited by Five Green; 21st Nov 2006 at 08:22. Reason: too much of the quote !
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Stand By for new message
Yeah but......
Is that bottom of list but retain your seat ? As most of the Air Hong Kong pilots did. With the exceptions as I laid out above.
Things could change with time before anything gets done !!
Is that bottom of list but retain your seat ? As most of the Air Hong Kong pilots did. With the exceptions as I laid out above.
Things could change with time before anything gets done !!
Dear Mr five Green,
Thank you for your interesting last post. Some good words of wisdom.
Just a couple of points. Firstly I disagree that if we merge I will sit as an F/O on CX pay scales. No way will I suddenly be given a $10k per month pay rise. Not possible. And as for access to basings - already spoken to CX heirachy about this, it may change, but was told KA won't be given access to bases. So not too much in it for us.
Good to hear you won't do a runner. But that shows we are all different. Extend my right seat by 8 years and I WILL go, and mates of mine also have said they will go.
As for my comments about commands, and your response that CX may not relish KA guys as I suggest. Please remember, I put in big letters TONGUE IN CHEEK. As I said, I didn't mean it at all. I was just having a shot at ACMS's attacks on us at "the little ship KA." No offence was intended.
And as my colleague sitting here with me suggests - if CX guys are a bit worried about KA guys coming and taking commands then just rmember, it is a two way bridge, ie could bid for an early 330 command at KA and enjoy all that China has to offer........ Paradise in HZ FU, BLDU, CRAP,****. No honestly, Chengdu ain't that bad.
Rod
Thank you for your interesting last post. Some good words of wisdom.
Just a couple of points. Firstly I disagree that if we merge I will sit as an F/O on CX pay scales. No way will I suddenly be given a $10k per month pay rise. Not possible. And as for access to basings - already spoken to CX heirachy about this, it may change, but was told KA won't be given access to bases. So not too much in it for us.
Good to hear you won't do a runner. But that shows we are all different. Extend my right seat by 8 years and I WILL go, and mates of mine also have said they will go.
As for my comments about commands, and your response that CX may not relish KA guys as I suggest. Please remember, I put in big letters TONGUE IN CHEEK. As I said, I didn't mean it at all. I was just having a shot at ACMS's attacks on us at "the little ship KA." No offence was intended.
And as my colleague sitting here with me suggests - if CX guys are a bit worried about KA guys coming and taking commands then just rmember, it is a two way bridge, ie could bid for an early 330 command at KA and enjoy all that China has to offer........ Paradise in HZ FU, BLDU, CRAP,****. No honestly, Chengdu ain't that bad.
Rod
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Rodney :
No offence taken, just wanted to give you a little history of how CX operates.
There is a lot of snobbery over here. No matter what your background you will face it here at CX. Some get it worse than others though.
Not sure if what you were told re: bases and pay scales etc was related to an integration scenario or not.
Cathay already missed the boat for a fleet to upgrade on when they seperated Air Hong Kong after integrating it. It could have been great experience for the less experienced among us here at CX. It can be said that KA could be an equally good place to gain experience before being let loose on long haul ! In honesty though I would think that China etc. has more pitfalls than LA or London (maybe not New York !)
Cheers
No offence taken, just wanted to give you a little history of how CX operates.
There is a lot of snobbery over here. No matter what your background you will face it here at CX. Some get it worse than others though.
Not sure if what you were told re: bases and pay scales etc was related to an integration scenario or not.
Cathay already missed the boat for a fleet to upgrade on when they seperated Air Hong Kong after integrating it. It could have been great experience for the less experienced among us here at CX. It can be said that KA could be an equally good place to gain experience before being let loose on long haul ! In honesty though I would think that China etc. has more pitfalls than LA or London (maybe not New York !)
Cheers