Management
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Management
I fear here we go again. Big profits, strong market, great operation but very little loyalty to the workforce.
When integrity and people rate higher than pay and profits, everyone profits!
When integrity and people rate higher than pay and profits, everyone profits!
And a DFO who willingly disappoints and blatantly fails the children of his senior colleagues by retreating on a promise made to young Adelaide instructors and then not having the courage to go down to a graduation and face them. What's the problem? Scared of a mutiny? Trying to save a few dollars? Anything goes now. The aircrew body are not represented by this weak behaviour. Money is everything. Profit is God.
Where do these people come from who pretend to manage us?
Where do these people come from who pretend to manage us?
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Has to be said though, not many of those Senior Colleagues (EDIT: referred to in the previous post - not in general!) have chosen to remain members of the Association we choose to represent us.... Nice to see the next generation (EDIT: of CX Captains children) signing up though. Strange irony that the sons are now suffering the consequence of their fathers chosing not to protect their own contracts. Never mind, saved a few dollars.
Last edited by CXpletive; 19th Nov 2011 at 08:21. Reason: To defuse an argument never intended!
CXpletive: Yes, I'll consider that that's probably a fair comment from where you're coming from, so I won't bite.
Equally, many of us are fully committed members of the CPU. I hope that you can understand that we have our moral reasons for that position and situation.
To stay on topic; the root cause can be traced back to the OP's opening statement. OMG!!! Have I really agreed with cpdude????
Equally, many of us are fully committed members of the CPU. I hope that you can understand that we have our moral reasons for that position and situation.
To stay on topic; the root cause can be traced back to the OP's opening statement. OMG!!! Have I really agreed with cpdude????
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CXpletive, your statement about the "sins of their fathers" has biblical roots. I think the comment is bang on. Save it, Skillet...
Spleener, the CPU excuse is just tired at this stage of the game. Get with the program already! The 49er saga is almost over. Perhaps you can rejoin once the final judgment is rendered. I understand being upset by the AOA's response to the 49er events, but why send your kid to work for the company which perpetrated the 49er crimes in the first place? In that light, the 49er/CPU excuse for non-membership appears a flimsy excuse to save a few dollars and ride the backs of your colleagues. I bet you owe back dues and don't want to pony up. WEAK!!!
CXorcist
Spleener, the CPU excuse is just tired at this stage of the game. Get with the program already! The 49er saga is almost over. Perhaps you can rejoin once the final judgment is rendered. I understand being upset by the AOA's response to the 49er events, but why send your kid to work for the company which perpetrated the 49er crimes in the first place? In that light, the 49er/CPU excuse for non-membership appears a flimsy excuse to save a few dollars and ride the backs of your colleagues. I bet you owe back dues and don't want to pony up. WEAK!!!
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Sons of pilots or not, they are CX pilots (or will soon be). And should they wish to join the union, we should be proud of defending their rights as well.
The way they were treated is just not fair.
The way they were treated is just not fair.
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CX Management Studying Video Intensely
Rumour has it that CX (mis) management are studying the attached video intensely.
It shows that
1. Aircraft CAN fly by themselves, and
2. Possibility of HUGE fuel savings is out there.
In typical CX fashion, the objective is achieved, but the consequences will be studied at a later time.
Accounts and purchasing are excited at the possibilities and several more "B" and "C" level managers have been employed to form a working group who will report to the CE in due course.
If pilots can be eliminated completely, the potential bonus for the board is enormous, and the shareholders can be paid an impressive dividend.
The airports management is also thrilled at the elimination of the third runway issue.
Clearly, a win-win for all concerned.
It?s Impressive What Strong Winds Can Cause - Izismile.com
It shows that
1. Aircraft CAN fly by themselves, and
2. Possibility of HUGE fuel savings is out there.
In typical CX fashion, the objective is achieved, but the consequences will be studied at a later time.
Accounts and purchasing are excited at the possibilities and several more "B" and "C" level managers have been employed to form a working group who will report to the CE in due course.
If pilots can be eliminated completely, the potential bonus for the board is enormous, and the shareholders can be paid an impressive dividend.
The airports management is also thrilled at the elimination of the third runway issue.
Clearly, a win-win for all concerned.
It?s Impressive What Strong Winds Can Cause - Izismile.com
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CXpletive
maybe you would care to elaborate on how you have protected your contract and cared for the future generations of pilots following in your footsteps. Did you join on B scale therefore undermining those ahead of you and yourself in the long term? Did you take an out of seniority freighter command and if not what did you do about those colleagues whom jumped over you? What did you do about all the DEC Oasis commander who by passed the seniority list and jumped over you? What are you doing about the current C scale on offer?
just curious if you might be guilty of the same sins you accuse others of!
just curious if you might be guilty of the same sins you accuse others of!
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Cyril,
I'm guessing CXpletive is in the AOA and pays dues. If we all did that, we would see a lot less of the abuses you referenced. It is pretty simple math really. You who quit the AOA, work your training jobs, and send your kids into the cadet program have basically sided with the company. So compared to those, CXpletive is doing pretty well just being a member. Members are the ones who got the payraises of this and next year. Not you nonmembers.
Enjoy your eight day off training roster...
CXorcist
I'm guessing CXpletive is in the AOA and pays dues. If we all did that, we would see a lot less of the abuses you referenced. It is pretty simple math really. You who quit the AOA, work your training jobs, and send your kids into the cadet program have basically sided with the company. So compared to those, CXpletive is doing pretty well just being a member. Members are the ones who got the payraises of this and next year. Not you nonmembers.
Enjoy your eight day off training roster...
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One of the funniest moments of my time in CX was when an A scale ( well ex A scale now ) training captain told me how fantastically happy he is that his son got into the cadet scheme!!
Most of them have completely lost touch with reality. Most senior captains who never did time as an SO, never made less than FO salary and never lived in anything smaller than 2000 sg ft are utterly incapable of even imagining the lifestyle sacrifices new joiners are/have been making.
Quite interesting is the psychological research that show how type A personalities - i.e. the type CX hires - have by far the most narcissistic personalities and struggle with things like empathy and altruism.
We are not all that different from our managers....
Most of them have completely lost touch with reality. Most senior captains who never did time as an SO, never made less than FO salary and never lived in anything smaller than 2000 sg ft are utterly incapable of even imagining the lifestyle sacrifices new joiners are/have been making.
Quite interesting is the psychological research that show how type A personalities - i.e. the type CX hires - have by far the most narcissistic personalities and struggle with things like empathy and altruism.
We are not all that different from our managers....
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CXorsist
Sorry pal wrong on both assumptions, been paying full union subs for over 30 years, two unions concurrently for twenty years, and not in training. Paid all levies asked by the AOA. My point is just what has CXexpletive done to protect his contract vs the so called sins of others?
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Quite interesting is the psychological research that show how type A personalities - i.e. the type CX hires - have by far the most narcissistic personalities and struggle with things like empathy and altruism.
We are not all that different from our managers....
We are not all that different from our managers....
Probably because in many cases it's not far from the truth...
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One of the funniest moments of my time in CX was when an A scale ( well ex A scale now ) training captain told me how fantastically happy he is that his son got into the cadet scheme!!
Most of them have completely lost touch with reality. Most senior captains who never did time as an SO, never made less than FO salary and never lived in anything smaller than 2000 sg ft are utterly incapable of even imagining the lifestyle sacrifices new joiners are/have been making.
Most of them have completely lost touch with reality. Most senior captains who never did time as an SO, never made less than FO salary and never lived in anything smaller than 2000 sg ft are utterly incapable of even imagining the lifestyle sacrifices new joiners are/have been making.
In chatting to people who want to start flying I always find myself starting to try and turn them against it before I suddenly ask myself what would be a better job to recommend? I honestly cannot think of one unless of course you don't mind working 9-6, 5+ days a week in a cubicle....in which case yes there are plenty of better jobs than flying.
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What you say is true - but it would be nice if we could 'live the dream ' and 'never work a day' and still make a decent standard of living....like the generation before us did.
This all harks back to the fact that the 'greatest generation' ( look it up ) i.e. people who fought WW2 and then created the immense wealth and growth in the 50's and 60's set it all up for their children ( the baby boomers / A scalers ) who then proceeded to plunder at will.
Leaving us - (the 'gen X-ers'/ B scalers if you will) with less every day and their debts to pay. And our children - (the gen Y-ers' or in this case the International cadets ) with even less....
So it seems what is happening in CX is pretty much exactly what is happening all over the western world today. The rich get richer. The middle class gets destroyed.
This all harks back to the fact that the 'greatest generation' ( look it up ) i.e. people who fought WW2 and then created the immense wealth and growth in the 50's and 60's set it all up for their children ( the baby boomers / A scalers ) who then proceeded to plunder at will.
Leaving us - (the 'gen X-ers'/ B scalers if you will) with less every day and their debts to pay. And our children - (the gen Y-ers' or in this case the International cadets ) with even less....
So it seems what is happening in CX is pretty much exactly what is happening all over the western world today. The rich get richer. The middle class gets destroyed.
Last edited by yokebearer; 18th Nov 2011 at 13:36.
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Cyril,
I was more labeling your generation than you specifically. If what you write is true, you are certainly an anomaly amongst A scalers. Good on you for sticking by the AOA and the 49ers.
Yoke,
What you write about is similar to a thesis I have had for a few years now. The "greatest generation" (WW2) has given way to the "greediest generation" (baby boomers). They grew up on free love, cheap dope, and peace rallies. When they finally outgrew all that they became the bankers and politicians we all suffer under today. They privatize profits and socialize losses. They devise massive public retirement and medical plans with no taxation to pay for them. So they pass their expenses as a debt burden for future generations. They make profits at the expense of middle class jobs, the very jobs their children are fighting to get/keep. I could go on and on, but in sum the boomers want to "have their cake and eat it too". The problem is that they cannot afford the cake or the frosting. So we will be paying for that, but not because we choose to. We will pay because the proletariat says we must. Rant over.
I was more labeling your generation than you specifically. If what you write is true, you are certainly an anomaly amongst A scalers. Good on you for sticking by the AOA and the 49ers.
Yoke,
What you write about is similar to a thesis I have had for a few years now. The "greatest generation" (WW2) has given way to the "greediest generation" (baby boomers). They grew up on free love, cheap dope, and peace rallies. When they finally outgrew all that they became the bankers and politicians we all suffer under today. They privatize profits and socialize losses. They devise massive public retirement and medical plans with no taxation to pay for them. So they pass their expenses as a debt burden for future generations. They make profits at the expense of middle class jobs, the very jobs their children are fighting to get/keep. I could go on and on, but in sum the boomers want to "have their cake and eat it too". The problem is that they cannot afford the cake or the frosting. So we will be paying for that, but not because we choose to. We will pay because the proletariat says we must. Rant over.
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The truth of the matter is that many of the posters here make assumptions and statements that are simply erroneous. How exactly did the previous generation fail to protect their contracts and plunder everything. I ask again, what has the new generation done which has been any different from the previous generations?
I often wonder if the posters here are really concerned about the new I cadet conditions from the point of view of the new cadets perspective, or could it be that they are acutely aware that any new conditions that are less than the existing group enjoys is at jeopardy for themselves. Just maybe they realise that when they themselves undercut A scales all those years ago that was in fact the beginning of the end for themselves, but hey never let fact get in the way of a way to deflect where the real blame lays and shoot of a few hand grenades at those they adversely affected.
One only needs to look at the seniority list to see all of the out of order commands which your own generation fell over themselves to take at reduced conditions, to realize that considerable blame for our collective predicament of being attacked also lies firmly on their shoulders as well.......or could it just be that the root cause of it all lies entirely somewhere else......if you, want to generalize !!
Oh one more thing, CXorsist you said you where certain I was in the minority of my generation whom are AOA MEMBERS , well I just checked both seniority and membership lists and out of 5 either side of me , 9 out of 11 pilots are members of the AOA and of those 2 non members, 1 is in management, so as usual, you are wrong again my friend. Over two decades of membership for each of them.....I think older generation have done as much as you if not more to try and attempt to protect their contracts from those who have attacked or undermined them from all directions.
I often wonder if the posters here are really concerned about the new I cadet conditions from the point of view of the new cadets perspective, or could it be that they are acutely aware that any new conditions that are less than the existing group enjoys is at jeopardy for themselves. Just maybe they realise that when they themselves undercut A scales all those years ago that was in fact the beginning of the end for themselves, but hey never let fact get in the way of a way to deflect where the real blame lays and shoot of a few hand grenades at those they adversely affected.
One only needs to look at the seniority list to see all of the out of order commands which your own generation fell over themselves to take at reduced conditions, to realize that considerable blame for our collective predicament of being attacked also lies firmly on their shoulders as well.......or could it just be that the root cause of it all lies entirely somewhere else......if you, want to generalize !!
Oh one more thing, CXorsist you said you where certain I was in the minority of my generation whom are AOA MEMBERS , well I just checked both seniority and membership lists and out of 5 either side of me , 9 out of 11 pilots are members of the AOA and of those 2 non members, 1 is in management, so as usual, you are wrong again my friend. Over two decades of membership for each of them.....I think older generation have done as much as you if not more to try and attempt to protect their contracts from those who have attacked or undermined them from all directions.
Last edited by CYRILJGROOVE; 20th Nov 2011 at 09:55.
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Cyril,
Why stop at five? Let's take 20 or 40 either side of you. In fact, let's look at all the (ex-)A scalers and see how many members we have. My experience is only anecdotal, but nearly all the A scalers I have flown with are no longer members. I wish I travelled in your circle more often.
However, even if you are right and most A scalers have stood by the association, where is the leadership? Most have been too busy getting theirs to donate anything more than 1% to the association. That is what I would call a generational problem. You guys should be leading the charge, but most of you are quite content to sit back and criticize the B scale leadership.
Why stop at five? Let's take 20 or 40 either side of you. In fact, let's look at all the (ex-)A scalers and see how many members we have. My experience is only anecdotal, but nearly all the A scalers I have flown with are no longer members. I wish I travelled in your circle more often.
However, even if you are right and most A scalers have stood by the association, where is the leadership? Most have been too busy getting theirs to donate anything more than 1% to the association. That is what I would call a generational problem. You guys should be leading the charge, but most of you are quite content to sit back and criticize the B scale leadership.
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I too am an A scaler who's been a member for over two decades.
Cxorcist, are you suggesting that non-A scalers have a 100% membership rate???
Cyril is correct, your demographic accepting the reduced conditions offered in the B scale, or whatever sub-contract was offered, allowed the Company to impose a reduction of conditions on the pilots working at Cathay at the time you joined; as well, your demographic never hesitated, not for one second, to jump over their own colleagues to take an early command...
Therefore, I am finding your chutzpa, and self-moralizing, a bit rich....
So can we cut the A scale bashing crap.....we who have been here long enough to remember, and who have fought the imposition of new contracts and conditions to the best of our abilities, given the limitations of modern labor laws in Hong Kong, those of us who have endured one cut after another, deserve better than that!
For goodness sake, we are supposed to be on the same side!
Cxorcist, are you suggesting that non-A scalers have a 100% membership rate???
Cyril is correct, your demographic accepting the reduced conditions offered in the B scale, or whatever sub-contract was offered, allowed the Company to impose a reduction of conditions on the pilots working at Cathay at the time you joined; as well, your demographic never hesitated, not for one second, to jump over their own colleagues to take an early command...
Therefore, I am finding your chutzpa, and self-moralizing, a bit rich....
So can we cut the A scale bashing crap.....we who have been here long enough to remember, and who have fought the imposition of new contracts and conditions to the best of our abilities, given the limitations of modern labor laws in Hong Kong, those of us who have endured one cut after another, deserve better than that!
For goodness sake, we are supposed to be on the same side!
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Raven,
You are simply wrong. It is not the responsibility of NJers to stop contract reductions. It is the responsibility of those already employed. It started with A scalers and the "acceptance" of B scales. It continued with ASL, F, C, and Icadets. Again, lack of A scale leadership is the key. You guys failed to stop B scale. Then what, brand new B scalers were supposed to stop ASL and F scale? Nope, that is yours too. Get real, the game was lost when you allowed any differences in the contract under which your colleagues would be employed. To blame B scalers or anyone else for the degradation of conditions is simply a deflection of responsibility and you know it.
That said, you are right. We are on the same side, and we need to find a way past our grotesque history.
A bit rich? Perhaps, but let's just not forget how it all started.
You are simply wrong. It is not the responsibility of NJers to stop contract reductions. It is the responsibility of those already employed. It started with A scalers and the "acceptance" of B scales. It continued with ASL, F, C, and Icadets. Again, lack of A scale leadership is the key. You guys failed to stop B scale. Then what, brand new B scalers were supposed to stop ASL and F scale? Nope, that is yours too. Get real, the game was lost when you allowed any differences in the contract under which your colleagues would be employed. To blame B scalers or anyone else for the degradation of conditions is simply a deflection of responsibility and you know it.
That said, you are right. We are on the same side, and we need to find a way past our grotesque history.
A bit rich? Perhaps, but let's just not forget how it all started.