DEFO/Conditions of Service 2007 Hot Oil
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DEFO/Conditions of Service 2007 Hot Oil
For those of you that are interested, here is the latest on the agreement that the Air Officers Association and the company have reached on the recruitment of Direct Entry First Officers. This agreement forms part of new Conditions of Service (CoS 07). This agreement has yet to be ratified by the AOA membership, and it will be voted on in the near future.
These are the clauses in the agreement that I believe are worse than what we presently have here at Cathay:
5.3.a Ability to Operate Freighter or Passenger Aircraft
This is a significant operational concession that we would be making on behalf of all New Joiner Direct Entry First Officer aircrew, as well as others who choose to take up CoS 2007.
5.3.c Annual Leave Entitlement
The staggered 4-5-6 week leave entitlement, which includes a further ‘two-year, five-week step’ in leave entitlement for a Direct Entry First Officer, is a degradation to current CoS which has a 4-6 week leave stagger, (ie. an initial 'two-year four-week' step then up to six weeks in the third year). Over time, this gives the Company an extra two weeks work, for every newly employed Officer, for nothing in return.
5.4.c ‘Intent’ to still Upgrade Second Officers As Soon As Possible
The term ‘intent’ is wide open to interpretation and is not, in any way, a cast-iron guarantee that this will in fact take place in an environment where training resources will be stretched to the limit. This could lead to Second Officers remaining as Second Officers for appreciably longer than they otherwise would have under present CoS. I do not think the word ‘intent’ should be used in this manner.
5.4.d.ii Bypass Pay
Reducing the ability of an Officer to receive Bypass Pay by insisting on Second Officer service of at least 42 months before becoming eligible is a degradation of the current CoS. In addition, the Bypass Pay received in this instance would be less than under current CoS, because the applicable salary scale would be less.
5.5 CoS 07 Salary Scales
Based on a rationale which includes Freighter Salary Scales, the Company has come up with what it proposes for a Combined Scale under CoS 07. Thus the first years of a Direct Entry First Officer Salary under Cos 07 are significantly less than if he were to join as a Direct Entry First Officer under present Passenger Fleet Salary Scales.
Aircrew have previously come to agreement with the Company on the topics of Freighter Crewing, Housing and the 49ers. I would ask what the aircrew would have to negotiate with, precisely, when it comes to Salary, if agreement is made to give everything away before sitting down with the Company to negotiate? I believe Salary to be a valid topic to be negotiated upon in conjunction with a change in Conditions of Service. The company doesn't see it this way.
5.6.a Voluntary Movement to Hong Kong
This provision, where Officers recruited to a base must serve on that base to SFO1 before becoming eligible for Voluntary Movement to Hong Kong, is a degradation of current CoS where an Officer must only serve two years before becoming eligible to return to Hong Kong.
5.6.b Ability of the Company to Hold an Officer on a Base
This provision allows the company to hold an Officer on a Base where that Officer is operating an aircraft type that is not crewed out of Hong Kong, such as the B747F Classic. Although the Officer is paid ‘Hong Kong Deferment Pay’, equating to Hong Kong SFO Salary, no Expatriate Benefits apply. This is to the Officers detriment if, through no fault of his own, he is recruited onto an aircraft type that is so affected, and he wishes to relocate to Hong Kong as would otherwise be his right.
In addition, this provision could open a loophole whereby the Company may in future, actively seek to change rosters so that other aircraft types are not crewed out of Hong Kong, holding those Officers on a base and therefore saving them Expatriate Benefits.
5.7.b Voluntary Election of CoS 07 for Current Officers
This provision mandates that Current Officers transferring to CoS 07 and taking up a Base, shall serve a minimum of three years or SFO1 before being eligible for a return to Hong Kong. Once again, this is a degradation of current CoS.
Summary
It appears that the Company want to gain everything with this agreement in return for not a lot for the aircrew.
If this agreement is ratified, the Company will gain the following:
· combined crewing for freighter and passenger fleets,
· the ability to hire Direct Entry First Officers without incurring Bypass Pay for Second Officers for 42 months,
· reduction in the amount of Bypass Pay compared to current CoS Salary Scales,
· a reduced Salary Scale for the first number of years of service of a First Officer,
· reduced leave for First Officers,
· ability to recruit directly to a Passenger Fleet base,
· greater period of qualification before becoming entitled to Voluntary Movement to Hong Kong for Direct Entry First Officers recruited to a base,
· ability to hold an Officer on type and on a base, despite that Officer being eligible for Voluntary Movement to Hong Kong, should the company require it in the case where that aircraft type is not crewed out of Hong Kong,
· no cast-iron guarantee for timely upgrade for current Second Officers, merely an ‘intent’ to upgrade as soon as possible.
If this agreement is ratified, the Aircrew Community will ‘gain’ the following:
· current serving Officers will have no appreciable change to their CoS,
· the more junior current serving Officers wishing to take a base will be required to sign up to the inferior CoS 07 in order to do so,
· the aircrew body will have knowingly consigned all New Joiners after January 2007 to an inferior set of CoS, in effect a ‘C-Scale’, whether the airline grows or doesn't grow,
· the aircrew body will have given all this in return for not even a commitment to partake in salary discussions, and will have already given away yet another significant bargaining chip for when, eventually, negotiations take place on salary.
All this will have taken place when the industry is in arguably the greatest upswing in recent memory, and pressures on pilot recruitment world-wide are at an all-time high. If an erosion of CoS is allowed at a time where the industry is in an up-cycle, what will aircrew agree to, or be forced to accept, when the industry commences a down-cycle?
Accepting this agreement would serve only to split the membership further in future, and promote the Company’s ‘divide and conquer’ strategy.
It should be clear to everyone that there is nothing stopping the Company recruiting Direct Entry First Officers under current CoS. It is just a little more expensive for the company.
I believe that the AOA membership should not vote for any proposal that includes degraded CoS for New Joiners. I personally do not wish to explain to a future colleague why I voted for his degraded CoS and I am hoping the membership will comprehensively vote this agreement down.
These are the clauses in the agreement that I believe are worse than what we presently have here at Cathay:
5.3.a Ability to Operate Freighter or Passenger Aircraft
This is a significant operational concession that we would be making on behalf of all New Joiner Direct Entry First Officer aircrew, as well as others who choose to take up CoS 2007.
5.3.c Annual Leave Entitlement
The staggered 4-5-6 week leave entitlement, which includes a further ‘two-year, five-week step’ in leave entitlement for a Direct Entry First Officer, is a degradation to current CoS which has a 4-6 week leave stagger, (ie. an initial 'two-year four-week' step then up to six weeks in the third year). Over time, this gives the Company an extra two weeks work, for every newly employed Officer, for nothing in return.
5.4.c ‘Intent’ to still Upgrade Second Officers As Soon As Possible
The term ‘intent’ is wide open to interpretation and is not, in any way, a cast-iron guarantee that this will in fact take place in an environment where training resources will be stretched to the limit. This could lead to Second Officers remaining as Second Officers for appreciably longer than they otherwise would have under present CoS. I do not think the word ‘intent’ should be used in this manner.
5.4.d.ii Bypass Pay
Reducing the ability of an Officer to receive Bypass Pay by insisting on Second Officer service of at least 42 months before becoming eligible is a degradation of the current CoS. In addition, the Bypass Pay received in this instance would be less than under current CoS, because the applicable salary scale would be less.
5.5 CoS 07 Salary Scales
Based on a rationale which includes Freighter Salary Scales, the Company has come up with what it proposes for a Combined Scale under CoS 07. Thus the first years of a Direct Entry First Officer Salary under Cos 07 are significantly less than if he were to join as a Direct Entry First Officer under present Passenger Fleet Salary Scales.
Aircrew have previously come to agreement with the Company on the topics of Freighter Crewing, Housing and the 49ers. I would ask what the aircrew would have to negotiate with, precisely, when it comes to Salary, if agreement is made to give everything away before sitting down with the Company to negotiate? I believe Salary to be a valid topic to be negotiated upon in conjunction with a change in Conditions of Service. The company doesn't see it this way.
5.6.a Voluntary Movement to Hong Kong
This provision, where Officers recruited to a base must serve on that base to SFO1 before becoming eligible for Voluntary Movement to Hong Kong, is a degradation of current CoS where an Officer must only serve two years before becoming eligible to return to Hong Kong.
5.6.b Ability of the Company to Hold an Officer on a Base
This provision allows the company to hold an Officer on a Base where that Officer is operating an aircraft type that is not crewed out of Hong Kong, such as the B747F Classic. Although the Officer is paid ‘Hong Kong Deferment Pay’, equating to Hong Kong SFO Salary, no Expatriate Benefits apply. This is to the Officers detriment if, through no fault of his own, he is recruited onto an aircraft type that is so affected, and he wishes to relocate to Hong Kong as would otherwise be his right.
In addition, this provision could open a loophole whereby the Company may in future, actively seek to change rosters so that other aircraft types are not crewed out of Hong Kong, holding those Officers on a base and therefore saving them Expatriate Benefits.
5.7.b Voluntary Election of CoS 07 for Current Officers
This provision mandates that Current Officers transferring to CoS 07 and taking up a Base, shall serve a minimum of three years or SFO1 before being eligible for a return to Hong Kong. Once again, this is a degradation of current CoS.
Summary
It appears that the Company want to gain everything with this agreement in return for not a lot for the aircrew.
If this agreement is ratified, the Company will gain the following:
· combined crewing for freighter and passenger fleets,
· the ability to hire Direct Entry First Officers without incurring Bypass Pay for Second Officers for 42 months,
· reduction in the amount of Bypass Pay compared to current CoS Salary Scales,
· a reduced Salary Scale for the first number of years of service of a First Officer,
· reduced leave for First Officers,
· ability to recruit directly to a Passenger Fleet base,
· greater period of qualification before becoming entitled to Voluntary Movement to Hong Kong for Direct Entry First Officers recruited to a base,
· ability to hold an Officer on type and on a base, despite that Officer being eligible for Voluntary Movement to Hong Kong, should the company require it in the case where that aircraft type is not crewed out of Hong Kong,
· no cast-iron guarantee for timely upgrade for current Second Officers, merely an ‘intent’ to upgrade as soon as possible.
If this agreement is ratified, the Aircrew Community will ‘gain’ the following:
· current serving Officers will have no appreciable change to their CoS,
· the more junior current serving Officers wishing to take a base will be required to sign up to the inferior CoS 07 in order to do so,
· the aircrew body will have knowingly consigned all New Joiners after January 2007 to an inferior set of CoS, in effect a ‘C-Scale’, whether the airline grows or doesn't grow,
· the aircrew body will have given all this in return for not even a commitment to partake in salary discussions, and will have already given away yet another significant bargaining chip for when, eventually, negotiations take place on salary.
All this will have taken place when the industry is in arguably the greatest upswing in recent memory, and pressures on pilot recruitment world-wide are at an all-time high. If an erosion of CoS is allowed at a time where the industry is in an up-cycle, what will aircrew agree to, or be forced to accept, when the industry commences a down-cycle?
Accepting this agreement would serve only to split the membership further in future, and promote the Company’s ‘divide and conquer’ strategy.
It should be clear to everyone that there is nothing stopping the Company recruiting Direct Entry First Officers under current CoS. It is just a little more expensive for the company.
I believe that the AOA membership should not vote for any proposal that includes degraded CoS for New Joiners. I personally do not wish to explain to a future colleague why I voted for his degraded CoS and I am hoping the membership will comprehensively vote this agreement down.
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What's in it for us?
I've had a good read of the above article, and agree that what CX is trying to sell us is a load of garbage, and nothing more than the introduction of "c" scale, ultimately for ALL flight crew down the road.
If this gets through, where and when do you think existing B scalers will get a pay rise, let alone the A scalers? Just as A-scalers have not risen in pay, and now are not dissimilar to B-scalers, so to will current B-scalers be shafted any sort of pay increase (and we are now FIRMLY in an inflationary environment), rather slip backward in real terms towards this proposed C-scale.
CX will expand regardless, and there is ample provision under the current CoS99 to do so. This is nothing more than a pitch at ultimate greed by the CX management, under the banner of "Growth" and how we, the flight crew will be so much better off by helping them out. When did they last help us out?- Profit Share, assisting with roster change requests, etc, etc,etc.
There is a dire shortage of aircrew worldwide, the imposition of fuel surcharges has NOT affected load factors; quite the opposite with demand for air travel at very high levels and climbing.
Slots into HK by CX are vitally important for them, more so than the few $thousands they'll save by shafting the crew. They would rather grow the business by a lesser dollar value than not at all. If CX don't take the slots, others will-for keeps.
Further, US and Euro zone carriers HAVE started to increase pax airfares across the board, reflecting the better pricing power in the industry right now. This comes about from simple supply and demand economics. Our skills as flight crew are in hot demand by the travelling public, and hence airlines.
Why oh why would we throw out the baby with the bathwater?
Asian carriers will soon follow suit.
DO NOT VOTE FOR DEFO AGREEMENT.
The Doc.
If this gets through, where and when do you think existing B scalers will get a pay rise, let alone the A scalers? Just as A-scalers have not risen in pay, and now are not dissimilar to B-scalers, so to will current B-scalers be shafted any sort of pay increase (and we are now FIRMLY in an inflationary environment), rather slip backward in real terms towards this proposed C-scale.
CX will expand regardless, and there is ample provision under the current CoS99 to do so. This is nothing more than a pitch at ultimate greed by the CX management, under the banner of "Growth" and how we, the flight crew will be so much better off by helping them out. When did they last help us out?- Profit Share, assisting with roster change requests, etc, etc,etc.
There is a dire shortage of aircrew worldwide, the imposition of fuel surcharges has NOT affected load factors; quite the opposite with demand for air travel at very high levels and climbing.
Slots into HK by CX are vitally important for them, more so than the few $thousands they'll save by shafting the crew. They would rather grow the business by a lesser dollar value than not at all. If CX don't take the slots, others will-for keeps.
Further, US and Euro zone carriers HAVE started to increase pax airfares across the board, reflecting the better pricing power in the industry right now. This comes about from simple supply and demand economics. Our skills as flight crew are in hot demand by the travelling public, and hence airlines.
Why oh why would we throw out the baby with the bathwater?
Asian carriers will soon follow suit.
DO NOT VOTE FOR DEFO AGREEMENT.
The Doc.
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Affects All
The most stunningly brutal thing about the DEFO scheme is that it affects almost half the pilot body negatively.
Anyone who is not currently relief and would like to take a base is screwed !
You will have to take a pay cut and loss n the COS as outlined at the begining of this thread. That and the base may be filled before you get there.
This is very serious and unless I am miss-reading it very bad for all non-relief hoping to some day take a base.
Very disappointing day in CX history.
Anyone who is not currently relief and would like to take a base is screwed !
You will have to take a pay cut and loss n the COS as outlined at the begining of this thread. That and the base may be filled before you get there.
This is very serious and unless I am miss-reading it very bad for all non-relief hoping to some day take a base.
Very disappointing day in CX history.
that!
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Hi guys - pardon my ignorance on the subject but what will this mean for DESO's who are hired in the months to come?
a) Will this proposed new DEFO payscale at all effect the salary of a soon-to-be-hired DESO at some point down the road or will the salary structure remain the same? Does this new "C-Scale" apply to DESO's hired after 2007?
b) On the subject of taking a basing at some point in the future - is it realistic to say that ALL available slots at non-HK basings might possibly be filled by DEFO's therefore making it impossible for a current FO or SO (after upgrade) to take a basing if he so desired?
In other words: I was recently found to be successful after my final DESO interview in HK and am awaiting the official offer of employment. I am told that the offer will come within the next few months and I should expect to be scheduled for a start date in early 2007 - Does this mean I will end up getting screwed if this new CoS 07 proposal goes through?
a) Will this proposed new DEFO payscale at all effect the salary of a soon-to-be-hired DESO at some point down the road or will the salary structure remain the same? Does this new "C-Scale" apply to DESO's hired after 2007?
b) On the subject of taking a basing at some point in the future - is it realistic to say that ALL available slots at non-HK basings might possibly be filled by DEFO's therefore making it impossible for a current FO or SO (after upgrade) to take a basing if he so desired?
In other words: I was recently found to be successful after my final DESO interview in HK and am awaiting the official offer of employment. I am told that the offer will come within the next few months and I should expect to be scheduled for a start date in early 2007 - Does this mean I will end up getting screwed if this new CoS 07 proposal goes through?
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DESO
Mach75
I will attempt to answer your questions, but you may wish to confirm with Cathay yourself.
a) if the agreement is voted in, and you join after Jan 1st 2007, then you will be employed under CoS 07;
b) the Company saves alot of money by basing Officers out of Hong Kong because they do not have to pay Expatriate Benefits. CoS 07 will allow the Company to recruit First Officers directly to a base. The company will want to exploit this situation as much as possible, so it would be fair to assume that your chances of getting a base when you upgrade to First Officer eventually would be lower than at present.
Mach75, I am working real hard to have this proposal voted down comprehensively because I do not want to have to look you in the eye when you join this Company and say that I had a part in voting to allow the Company to introduce lower conditions than that we presently enjoy. This Company can continue to profitably grow without the introduction of CoS 07.
I know you are between a rock and a hard place in coming to a decision as to how to proceed. Perhaps you could ask the Company the title and details of the CoS you would be joining under when you get offered the job. That would give you the best information.
I will attempt to answer your questions, but you may wish to confirm with Cathay yourself.
a) if the agreement is voted in, and you join after Jan 1st 2007, then you will be employed under CoS 07;
b) the Company saves alot of money by basing Officers out of Hong Kong because they do not have to pay Expatriate Benefits. CoS 07 will allow the Company to recruit First Officers directly to a base. The company will want to exploit this situation as much as possible, so it would be fair to assume that your chances of getting a base when you upgrade to First Officer eventually would be lower than at present.
Mach75, I am working real hard to have this proposal voted down comprehensively because I do not want to have to look you in the eye when you join this Company and say that I had a part in voting to allow the Company to introduce lower conditions than that we presently enjoy. This Company can continue to profitably grow without the introduction of CoS 07.
I know you are between a rock and a hard place in coming to a decision as to how to proceed. Perhaps you could ask the Company the title and details of the CoS you would be joining under when you get offered the job. That would give you the best information.
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Thanks for the reply BScaler. This is very disappointing - you wait patiently for years to get a chance to interview with CX and reach your career goal, you work extremely hard for months to pass the interview, and then the company alters the conditions of service - literally a month or two before you join. Does this mean that those who successfully passed their interview a month before I did will be earning a higher wage for doing the same job simply because they started with the company a month earlier than I did?
Also, what does the company consider to be your date of joining? Would this be when you start training in Adelaide or when you initially accept their formal offer of employment prior to leaving for Adelaide?
Also, what does the company consider to be your date of joining? Would this be when you start training in Adelaide or when you initially accept their formal offer of employment prior to leaving for Adelaide?
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Mach75
Mach75
I would have to refer you to the Company for those ones. Sorry I can't be of more help.
If this agreement gets voted down, then someday perhaps, we'll get a sector in together and you'll be on the same CoS as me.
That's the aim anyway.
I would have to refer you to the Company for those ones. Sorry I can't be of more help.
If this agreement gets voted down, then someday perhaps, we'll get a sector in together and you'll be on the same CoS as me.
That's the aim anyway.
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hahaha....welcome Cathay mate..! To answer your questions:
1. Tough luck! If your mates join one day befor COS07, and you join one day after....you are S.O.L. You'll enjoy earning less than your mates for the rest of your career, never mind the other compromises it will introduce.
2. Your seniority is based on the day you start your course.
3. Why bother even showing up? Cathay has a sad history of undermining and disappointing it's aircrew. I won't bother to bore you about all the different issues that have caused most of us sleepless years (never mind 'nights').
4. I'm sorry you have 'worked towards your dream', only to have the dream become a nightmare...literally 'overnight'. That's aviation mate...and a sad fact of life. Join a company that will not leave you in constant frustration. No career is worth living with that.
1. Tough luck! If your mates join one day befor COS07, and you join one day after....you are S.O.L. You'll enjoy earning less than your mates for the rest of your career, never mind the other compromises it will introduce.
2. Your seniority is based on the day you start your course.
3. Why bother even showing up? Cathay has a sad history of undermining and disappointing it's aircrew. I won't bother to bore you about all the different issues that have caused most of us sleepless years (never mind 'nights').
4. I'm sorry you have 'worked towards your dream', only to have the dream become a nightmare...literally 'overnight'. That's aviation mate...and a sad fact of life. Join a company that will not leave you in constant frustration. No career is worth living with that.
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3. Why bother even showing up? Cathay has a sad history of undermining and disappointing it's aircrew. I won't bother to bore you about all the different issues that have caused most of us sleepless years (never mind 'nights').
4. I'm sorry you have 'worked towards your dream', only to have the dream become a nightmare...literally 'overnight'. That's aviation mate...and a sad fact of life. Join a company that will not leave you in constant frustration. No career is worth living with that.
4. I'm sorry you have 'worked towards your dream', only to have the dream become a nightmare...literally 'overnight'. That's aviation mate...and a sad fact of life. Join a company that will not leave you in constant frustration. No career is worth living with that.
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Mach75, I am working real hard to have this proposal voted down comprehensively because I do not want to have to look you in the eye when you join this Company and say that I had a part in voting to allow the Company to introduce lower conditions than that we presently enjoy. This Company can continue to profitably grow without the introduction of CoS 07.
For the record I wil be voting No and if this is all the company is offering to the DEFO's I would think they won't be geting many application's as most of the people they are targeting are experienced guys who are presently employed with other airlines.
So hang out till the T&C's are better or take an S/O job, it is a very good life.
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I guess all I can do is wait to see what happens and hope for the best.
I'm still a little confused - is this new proposed F/O salary structure only for DEFO's hired directly to a non-HK base - or will it mean a decrease in pay for new-hire DESO's initially as well? How about a new-hire DESO who, several years from now, successfully upgrades to F/O - will this mean he will be earning less pay than an S/O who passes his upgrade prior to 2007?
At any rate, it seems to be a raw deal all around - what incentive is the company offering its employees in exchange for their YES vote?
Also, is there any approximate date that management is expected to make the announcement of the outcome?
I'm still a little confused - is this new proposed F/O salary structure only for DEFO's hired directly to a non-HK base - or will it mean a decrease in pay for new-hire DESO's initially as well? How about a new-hire DESO who, several years from now, successfully upgrades to F/O - will this mean he will be earning less pay than an S/O who passes his upgrade prior to 2007?
At any rate, it seems to be a raw deal all around - what incentive is the company offering its employees in exchange for their YES vote?
Also, is there any approximate date that management is expected to make the announcement of the outcome?
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Mach 75
The company is offering its goodwill. !@#$%
Read - the company would like us to give away all of our negotiating power on various issues before they will discuss a review of pay for the existing employees.
Read - the company would like us to give away all of our negotiating power on various issues before they will discuss a review of pay for the existing employees.
Last edited by Truckmasters; 3rd Sep 2006 at 03:51. Reason: .
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Terms and Conditions
TeamAmerica,
Your comments regarding the CoS we joined on are pretty much how the Company would like you to see it, but I see things slightly differently.
Based on your argument, if there were a guy out there willing to do our job for nothing, (say to get a type rating and some experience before moving on), is that what you believe the market says our job is worth? Is that what we should be happy to have New Joiners sign up for? I would disagree.
You and I were not offered A Scales because they were not on the table. They were not on the table because the AOA GC at the time allowed the Company, without challenge, to offer B Scales to New Joiners such as you and I.
The Company would like us to repeat this happy set of circumstances for them by having us allow them to present a set of C Scales to New Joiners from January 2007, and I cannot agree to this.
As you know, some guys work for years to gain experience, apply for the job, gain interviews, and finally get accepted to airlines such as ours. I believe it is our responsibility to protect our CoS and not simply permit the Company to offer New Joiners degraded CoS for doing the same job and carrying out the same responsibilities as we do now.
The Company would like you to see this as a way forward for them to acheive 'profitable growth', but don't forget that CoS 07 would apply in a subsequent downturn as well. (I don't see a clause in this agreement that says that if the airline does not expand, they will revert to current CoS.)
I just got an email from a guy who has gone through the long and involved interview and selection process, who would like to take an SO job, but due to his experience he is being told 'take the DEFO slot or nothing'! The Company does not appear to be giving New Joiners flexibility to pick and choose in this regard.
This agreement is not a good deal for New Joiners, the Company can achieve profitable expansion without it, and we should not give the Company permission to offer CoS 07 to New Joiners, particularly at this time of world-wide tightness in the pilot market.
You may be interested to check out the AOA Forum site. There is a post by an AOA GC member pointing out that the AOA are commited to robust defence of our present CoS, (Although I don't know how he can say that and at the same time ask us to ratify a lesser set of CoS for New Joiners!), and that in his opinion the Company cannot legally impose new CoS on New Joiners without agreement from the AOA.
I am glad you intend to vote against this agreement. I am working to have this agreement voted down comprehensively. In this way I believe the Company will negotiate with our AOA team in a more meaningful way to come up with something acceptable.
...when you and I joined on B Scales we were happy with the T&C otherwise we wouldn't have taken the job.
Based on your argument, if there were a guy out there willing to do our job for nothing, (say to get a type rating and some experience before moving on), is that what you believe the market says our job is worth? Is that what we should be happy to have New Joiners sign up for? I would disagree.
You and I were not offered A Scales because they were not on the table. They were not on the table because the AOA GC at the time allowed the Company, without challenge, to offer B Scales to New Joiners such as you and I.
The Company would like us to repeat this happy set of circumstances for them by having us allow them to present a set of C Scales to New Joiners from January 2007, and I cannot agree to this.
As you know, some guys work for years to gain experience, apply for the job, gain interviews, and finally get accepted to airlines such as ours. I believe it is our responsibility to protect our CoS and not simply permit the Company to offer New Joiners degraded CoS for doing the same job and carrying out the same responsibilities as we do now.
The Company would like you to see this as a way forward for them to acheive 'profitable growth', but don't forget that CoS 07 would apply in a subsequent downturn as well. (I don't see a clause in this agreement that says that if the airline does not expand, they will revert to current CoS.)
...if this is all the Company is offering to the DEFOs I would think they won't be getting many applications...so hang out til the T&C's get better ot take a S/O job...
This agreement is not a good deal for New Joiners, the Company can achieve profitable expansion without it, and we should not give the Company permission to offer CoS 07 to New Joiners, particularly at this time of world-wide tightness in the pilot market.
You may be interested to check out the AOA Forum site. There is a post by an AOA GC member pointing out that the AOA are commited to robust defence of our present CoS, (Although I don't know how he can say that and at the same time ask us to ratify a lesser set of CoS for New Joiners!), and that in his opinion the Company cannot legally impose new CoS on New Joiners without agreement from the AOA.
I am glad you intend to vote against this agreement. I am working to have this agreement voted down comprehensively. In this way I believe the Company will negotiate with our AOA team in a more meaningful way to come up with something acceptable.
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Soon we will start our propaganda campaign and as usually will we have 80-90% of the members shaking in their shoes.
We have the committee in that position already, with them and our campaign we will get the resolution passed. We have changed the voting rules so the resolutions proposed get through with much greater ease.
We will have the members (and non members) convinced it is much better to vote yes for the deal than to have the wrath of us imposing RP07/DEFO’s with mush better conditions in OUR favour.
Negotiations with the AOA are just a red herring, feel good factor if you wish, We just tell the AOA what we want, they sanction it and we convince the members it is a better deal than what we will impose.
You must realize from past negotiations, we get what we want. When negotiations break down or the AOA members don’t pass what we want, we just impose it. When we do make changes, they are insignificant.
The only time we felt the pressure was in ‘99 because we did not expect most B scalers to go sick. We knew the A scalers wouldn’t. Most signed the critical mass within the first few hours.
We quickly realized the power of fear. We just had to fire some pilots and it made a difference. We are willing to do it again if we are put in that position, so take this as a warning. You know what we are capable of. You have been warned.
As for your pay negotiations, we will negotiate what we are willing to pay you. If you don’t like it, leave. We would much rather have long term cost control of labour and slow our expansion, than to have labour cost too high hence the new DEFO scales. Don’t you realize how much productivity that will grant us?
When these resolutions pass, the new C scalers will not be angry at us, it will be at you for voting it in. Now we have three separate scales fighting against each other. Actually brings a smile to my face and a warm tingly feeling to ones heart. That bonus keeps getting bigger.
The Hong Kong Airport Authority will not give our slots to other carriers if we don’t expand as quickly as we like. Do you know what we do for Hong Kong? We are one of the main arteries to Hong Kong and the HK Government and Airport Authority knows this. How naive can you be? That’s right, you are pilots. Too busy thinking you run the airline. “Progress Hong Kong”. It is not as transparent as one might think.
It feels great having so much power over such a large group of so called Professional Pilots. Maybe we can teach UPS a thing or two. For you, the UPS contract is a pipe dream.
Fear is a great motivator, you all live in fear and most pilots have the “I’m all right Jack Syndrome”.
The Management
We have the committee in that position already, with them and our campaign we will get the resolution passed. We have changed the voting rules so the resolutions proposed get through with much greater ease.
We will have the members (and non members) convinced it is much better to vote yes for the deal than to have the wrath of us imposing RP07/DEFO’s with mush better conditions in OUR favour.
Negotiations with the AOA are just a red herring, feel good factor if you wish, We just tell the AOA what we want, they sanction it and we convince the members it is a better deal than what we will impose.
You must realize from past negotiations, we get what we want. When negotiations break down or the AOA members don’t pass what we want, we just impose it. When we do make changes, they are insignificant.
The only time we felt the pressure was in ‘99 because we did not expect most B scalers to go sick. We knew the A scalers wouldn’t. Most signed the critical mass within the first few hours.
We quickly realized the power of fear. We just had to fire some pilots and it made a difference. We are willing to do it again if we are put in that position, so take this as a warning. You know what we are capable of. You have been warned.
As for your pay negotiations, we will negotiate what we are willing to pay you. If you don’t like it, leave. We would much rather have long term cost control of labour and slow our expansion, than to have labour cost too high hence the new DEFO scales. Don’t you realize how much productivity that will grant us?
When these resolutions pass, the new C scalers will not be angry at us, it will be at you for voting it in. Now we have three separate scales fighting against each other. Actually brings a smile to my face and a warm tingly feeling to ones heart. That bonus keeps getting bigger.
The Hong Kong Airport Authority will not give our slots to other carriers if we don’t expand as quickly as we like. Do you know what we do for Hong Kong? We are one of the main arteries to Hong Kong and the HK Government and Airport Authority knows this. How naive can you be? That’s right, you are pilots. Too busy thinking you run the airline. “Progress Hong Kong”. It is not as transparent as one might think.
It feels great having so much power over such a large group of so called Professional Pilots. Maybe we can teach UPS a thing or two. For you, the UPS contract is a pipe dream.
Fear is a great motivator, you all live in fear and most pilots have the “I’m all right Jack Syndrome”.
The Management
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As a potential "new joiner" facing CoS07, I sincerely appreciate the efforts of BScaler and the like. It is refreshing and enlightening to have fellow pilots fighting for the conditions of others.
Good luck guys and Thankyou !!!!
Good luck guys and Thankyou !!!!
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Its Easy---- Just Say NO DE FO, NO RP 07, NO Age 60.
Its the only card we have!!!!!!!!
Its the only card we have!!!!!!!!
Last edited by ALPHA FLOOR; 3rd Sep 2006 at 10:46. Reason: Spelling
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My understanding is that this deal is not 'sanctioned' by the HKAOA but rather it is the best deal they are able to negotiate with the company at this time.
In other words they have
banged their collective heads against the wall and now any further discussion is worthless and it is time the membership gave their reaction.
Our vote is the response of the HKAOA, not the current deal (RP07/DEFO’s). It might be time to take that opportunity to express yourselves (to 'The Managment') if it is not currently available.
I will vote and vote NO.
In other words they have
banged their collective heads against the wall and now any further discussion is worthless and it is time the membership gave their reaction.Our vote is the response of the HKAOA, not the current deal (RP07/DEFO’s). It might be time to take that opportunity to express yourselves (to 'The Managment') if it is not currently available.
I will vote and vote NO.