What's the culture at Cathay like?

[NZLeardriver]

Originally Posted by FCUX

Lets look at the facts. The majority of the traffic in NRT is from the USA, flown by US pilots, using US R/T.

Not true.

Originally Posted by FCUX

Fedex, United, NWA...all operate through there without issue. If the japanese cant understand, then they should learn to speak english correctly. US General Douglas MacArthur pretty much made that clear back in 1945.

So they operate without issue, or the Japanese dont understand? Which point are you trying to make here?
Just like the US controllers learn Japanese for the JAL and ANA flights? No, I am sure you also say that if they want to fly to the US they can learn to speak English so that the controllers there can inderstand.
You could also say, if you want to fly international you learn to speak standard english, or even standard radio terminology, regardless of what your native language is, English or not.

Also, what did US General Douglas MacArthur say about aviation terminology in 1945? I didn"t get your point.

[BusyB]

Originally Posted by FCUX

And you never will.
Wasn't it one of your by the book senior Checkers who did that no-hands go around in HKG not too long ago? Just goes to show that you can know how to build a plane and quote the books all day long, but you can only impress SO's with that knowledge. Flying the plane safely should be the focus, not how you sound.

If your knowledge of SOP's is as good as your knowledge of incidents you won't be with us much longer!!

The truth is that the vast majority of C & T's are excellent with a few that are not so good (just like any major airline). The main problem in CX is limited to one or two senior management (soon to be gone) that overrule the C & T's.

As for all this BS about RT my personal judgement is that if an individual has to make the same call 3 times to pass his message and someone else can do it in one there is a problem. In my experience this is not limited to one nationality, in the last month I have flown with 4 different nationalities who can't pass a straightforward position report.

CX operates to a pretty good standard and the C & T's maintain that. No-one who's prepared to do the work will fail in the long run. What applicants should be worried about is the fact that contracts in CX are changed as often as the management change their underwear.

[Glacier1900]

So, is there anyone with an opinion on the company culture at YVR Cx base?

[hog tied]

Originally Posted by Glacier1900

So, is there anyone with an opinion on the company culture at YVR Cx base?

Same as anywhere else. If you have the ability to go to a good N American carrier (Southwest, Jet Blue, even the legacies will hire again someday), do it! CX is not a bad alternative, but anyone who defends the rediculous system here has never seen how a good company and training staff treats its people. I have never seen anything like it.

If you like living with stress, where your job is your life, come here. Why don't more people leave? Because they make it just a bit too difficult. How are you going to find something else when an exorbitant amount of your time is spent in Hong Kong in the checking meat grinder? I suppose you will just pop over to the US during your sectors when it suits you. When it is time to leave, you will have to give 3 months notice, pay up in leiu, or have cx track you down at the new job. Good luck forecasting a new job 3 months in advance. It simply isn't an easy place to leave in many ways.

Once again, CX is not the proverbial death sentence. It's a great job with some of the best people to work with on the planet. You will give up a small part of your soul to be a part of it, and for the select few this will be the job you have been looking for. This is a great job for a Yank, but there are equally great jobs out there that make much better careers for the long haul, and you won't even have to defend your heritage.

[psy clops]

Okay, I really think that I need to add my comments to this. I’m a CX SO that was line checked earlier this year; consequently I feel that I am pretty qualified to comment on Cathay’s initial training. In short:

Initial simulator phase, all training done by one instructor: Fantastic guy with a very mature attitude to the syllabus. It was completely ‘training’ until the 528 (check rides). The check rides certainly included training too, with thorough and fair debriefs.

Line Flying Under Supervision (LFUS) phase. Often flew with based training captains, so had different trainer out and back. They were from Australia, UK, Ireland, New Zealand, Canada and the States. Without exception, they were excellent – and I mean ALL of them. Saying that, they did all expect you to have done quite a lot of preparation before hand – but then again, isn’t that our side of the contract?

Continuation simulators (including checks): Again, you would not want to arrive without having opened a book, but surely that’s the same in every country / culture / airline? Training? Yes. Checking – yes too (for the check rides), but I have never felt that my career is balanced on the head of a pin when I’m in the simulator(so far!!). In fact as a SO it means that I can actually get to do some driving, so I actually quite enjoy the sim time (I do understand that might be construed as a little weird!).

I have only experienced the SO side of things – I’m know that that there are very poor statistics in some areas of training, for example command upgrades. Clearly I have not experienced that part of CX yet, so I’m not going to comment on it. The one thing that I will mention is that some reputations seem to be much worse than the individual. Watch out for Capt X, he’s a hard ar*e has been heard a couple of times – but Capt X seemed fine to me...

Before I get hammered, I know that I have only been with CX for less than a year, and I know that I have only seen one facet of the training machine. Nevertheless, that part that I HAVE experienced has been professional and effective. I’m not saying that CX is perfect, I know it’s not, but IMHO it does get a pretty unreasonable slamming from a vocal minority at times.

Oh for the xenophobes, I’m not from the Americas, Europe, Asia or Australasia altho’ I was living in Oz before HK. Perhaps that has a bearing on my views?

[hog tied]

Originally Posted by psy clops

– I’m know that that there are very poor statistics in some areas of training, for example command upgrades. Clearly I have not experienced that part of CX yet, so I’m not going to comment on it.

That alone should raise the eyebrows of anyone committing to a career here. That tidal wave on the horizon may not seem important now, but its coming! Flying the big turkey leg (747) is one of the easiest flying gigs I have had, but to watch some of these people here every flight is the proverbial mission to Mars.... they operate with such polish, I am continually amazed!

Oh, yeah... the fact that the subject of "checking and training" even comes up so often ought to tell you something. At most companies it is quite rare, probably only in passing, and only immediately before the rare training event. Let's see, does an FO (or capt for thet matter!) really need 2 RT's, 2PC's, a loft, and a three sector line check each year? Let's not forget about the FO command ex harassment sim thrown in for good measure, and perhaps the good deal crew up ad hoc sim. Man, what a great idea! And for the poor SO's there's even more fun to be had just getting to the show.

[Freehills]

Originally Posted by hog tied

That alone should raise the eyebrows of anyone committing to a career here. That tidal wave on the horizon may not seem important now, but its coming! Flying the big turkey leg (747) is one of the easiest flying gigs I have had, but to watch some of these people here every flight is the proverbial mission to Mars.... they operate with such polish, I am continually amazed!

Oh, yeah... the fact that the subject of "checking and training" even comes up so often ought to tell you something. At most companies it is quite rare, probably only in passing, and only immediately before the rare training event. Let's see, does an FO (or capt for thet matter!) really need 2 RT's, 2PC's, a loft, and a three sector line check each year? Let's not forget about the FO command ex harassment sim thrown in for good measure, and perhaps the good deal crew up ad hoc sim. Man, what a great idea! And for the poor SO's there's even more fun to be had just getting to the show.

Think this is a fair post. Who is to say what is right or wrong, whether flying a big turkey leg of 400 people is an easy flying gig, or should be approached as if it a mission to Mars. The culture in CX has tradionally been to approach every flight as if it is a mission to mars, with polish and professionalism and attention to detail. Some may see this as a good thing, others may be irked by it and see it as anal - especially if from an easier going flying culture.

Non standard R/T may work fine. Depending on what argument you see more powerful - don't hassle me for being non-standard, it works, or, why not make the effort to use standard, it takes no more time effort?

Some is driven by HK aviation culture, not CX. HKCAD is defensive, and IMHO, has a culture of needing to show that the unique system (of being part of China, but following completely different aviation policies) is justified. So spend a lot of time justifying it.

To be honest, your general attitude to some of this will also impact your ability to enjoy living in HK. If you don't believe you should adapt to HK, but HK adapt to you, you will be an unhappy bunny of an expat.

[ACMS]

Holy **** Batman there are some angry people in here!!
I am not a TC or STC or BTC. Never will be.
The 777 is the best fleet in CX, with the best Checkers. Fact
My ONLY beef with the yanks is their slack R/T.
I am not talking about saying point instead of decimal, that is being a little anal ( in fact I say it sometimes as well )
I would like them to phrase their altitudes correctly.
Saying "out of 3 FOR 4" is not safe. Remember that Flying Tigers 747 that crashed into the hills 10 miles short of KL RWY 33 about 15 years ago? hmmmm
He was cleared by Lumpur Approach to decend "TWO FOUR ZERO ZERO", but read back "cleared TO 400" Bang...........
Since then ICAO ( that's right ICAO, not Australian CASA ) changed the proceedures to say "altitude 2 thousand 400 feet" AND FOR VERY GOOD REASON.
Not all people have the aviation savvy the yanks have, which works great in the US. All I'm saying is that it doesn't work too well all of the time in the rest of the world.
Now if that gets me branded a ****** then so be it..............
cheers
ACMS

[geh065]

Well done ACMS.

[ERJDCA]

Originally Posted by hog tied

Same as anywhere else. If you have the ability to go to a good N American carrier (Southwest, Jet Blue, even the legacies will hire again someday), do it! CX is not a bad alternative, but anyone who defends the rediculous system here has never seen how a good company and training staff treats its people. .

Hog Tied,

Im not defending any system, or dissagreeing that Cathay runs things a bit different then the U.S. but your advice is to take JetBlue or Legacy over CX? Your kidding right? I have personally gotten PM's from a few Delta guys who are currently employed that are leaving and comming to CX. One AMR guy is in Training now that i know of who was also was currently employed with AMR. I have many friends at JetBlue (9 to be exact) who are now thinking if they are recalled or get another reasonable job offer they will leave. Most people aren't looking for a place to just go, rather spend a career.

If someone has a job offer for FEDEX or UPS waiting for them then i would say absolutely take it! If you are lucky enough to have 3 rec's and a sponsor of course! Or should you wait for the Legacies to call in 5 years? Most of the Airlines this quarter made a profit and now everyone should dive head first into the Legacy's? Again, this place is quite different but if you put a little effort in and leave work at work you should have no issues here. I would highly recommend this place then an American Legacy, let alone a LCC. I'd rather have a job in the next 15 years as opposed to just going somewhere so that the checker is going to spoon feed me and pat me on the back every five minutes so i feel better.

Again, i can only speak of what i hear or know but it sounds like your one of the few who have had a bad experiance here.

[hog tied]

Originally Posted by ERJDCA

Again, i can only speak of what i hear or know but it sounds like your one of the few who have had a bad experiance here.

You must be fairly new, or you wouldn't be making this statement. I am not advocating going to or waiting for a legacy. Do not misconstrue Delta guys fleeing the ship that is taking their retirements. Very senior DAL captains are applying (and currently on probation at other well known airlines in the US after taking early outs) all over.

I stand by my statements, although to be fair I am done voicing my opinions on this medium. I never said that I have had a bad experience with CX, in fact quite the opposite. The bottom line is that there is no comparison between a good US job and CX, and neither AMR nor DAL fall into that category at the moment, nor will they for quite some time. CAL, SWA, UPS, FEDEX, and yes even JB do (although the growing pains at JB are certainly something to watch I'll grant you) and they all all hiring, and some at historic levels. If you have an option there take it. It has nothing to do with being pat on the back. It also has nothing to do with equipment, or even pay. You have to factor in all the intangibles that make up quality of life, something not easily done without researching things like a company's culture. You can not overestimate the value of having the flexibility of a bidding system among others either.

A job at CX is loads better than flying for a regional, and certainly much better than the good old military. A good attitude will also go a long way. Im not here to rain on your parade, just hoping to make a fair and balanced case for those who have options. Cheers, buddy.

[ERJDCA]

Originally Posted by hog tied

just hoping to make a fair and balanced case for those who have options.

Exactly what im trying to do as well. Your not raining on my parade. I appreciate your post. I just respectfully disagree with some of the comparison's between some of the companies you posted, but hey to each is own right? Like i said in my opinion if you already have an offer with FEDEX or UPS, go for it! Thanks for the reply!

Cheers

[Five Green]

Bias Bias everywhere

Cathay is a growing airline that has not left it's small airline ways behind. The check and training department still thinks that it is OK that everyone is self study. Nothing wrong with self study but there should be more information supplied by the training department. More thorough route breifings for FOs who are not going into certain airports but once a year on their line checks. More course info for JFOs on their upgrade. More instruction time in prep for upgrade interviews and courses, or at the very least an outline of what is to be studied and what is reasonable to be tested on. If they do not like you in your JFO or Command interview they will ask questions until they find a weakness. If you come as a DEFO you will be given a CBT course (no instructor present unless you go looking) and then straight into the sims. Average instruction there (as compared to previous lives and those of fellow aviators at other airlines) because the sim instructors do not fly the line and some teach and preach what may get you in trouble once you are on line. It does not help that CX talks very large about it's SOPS and how strict they are and yet there is very little written in the manuals as actual SOPS. So you must consult the underground training network of SOs and all your friends to find out what interpretation certain Captains prefer. Then, on line checks, even what is written exactly in the books can get you into trouble if the checker thinks otherwise. Just play the game !

You are expected to use exact verbage and exact words to handle many situations. Engine failures, push back, ATC transmissions. All very admirable but not written in any SOPs I have ever seen. They are in "best practices" and strewn throught the manuals if they exist at all. Ask a checker what to say if you have an engine failure with severe dammage and you will get five different answers. So you have to play the game and find out from as many people how your checker likes it. All of which would not be a problem as they are not critical to the safety of the flight and amount to trivia. Without any oversight in the training department however these little things can and are written up as grave errors and then the Star chamber interprets them as failure and you are off your command coourse JFO upgrade etc. Just play the game.

It is great to have high standards. If you want them then you must provide the info required to achieve them. Cathay must write these things down. If they are not written down and the candidate completes the task in question safely and proffesionally, but not using the exact verbage, order or techniques of the checker, they should not be marked down or worse failed. Just play the game.

It is really to bad that we have to "Play the game". I would rather "Work" in a proffesional enviroment that respects what skills and experience you bring to the table rather than belittle you and put you in your place. Instead you are treated like the bad teenage son.

Soap Box off.

[fr8ter boi]

When I was learning to be an instructor at the organization which wrote the book on flying instruction, we learned that the first priority was to create a good environment for learning. The current environment seems to be one of fear and intimidation.

Yes, CX can run an operation which looks like a space mission. But yet, mistakes are still made. For example look at the 400 fleet. Although there are high standards, in recent times they have had the descending orbit on finals, the 'hands off' go around and the one that nearly landed on the grass at JFK.

Someone needs to step back and take a long hard look.

[Midnight Oil]

It will be interesting to see if there is a clash of cultures when Dragonair is subsumed into the Swire empire. Dragonair has a clause in its SOP’s saying small variations in standard calls such as “Flaps/Flap” etc are quite acceptable. This was specially inserted into the SOP’s to thwart the pedants amongst us who in their enthusiasm may lose sight of what is important when getting from A to B in China.
Here is an indication of the future culture clashes perhaps - A Dragon pilot in uniform but not wearing his cap (pretty ops normal for KA guys) was approached in the Hong Kong terminal recently and asked in a very rude manner “Where’s your cap!” by a Cathay captain. A curt “What’s it to you?” response made the questioner realise he was not dealing with a Cathay pilot, and so he moved on.
Dragon pilots are a pretty belligerent lot, especially when it comes to not wearing our caps, so I wonder whether such bullies will back down after the buyout?

[ACMS]

FIVE GREENS you say you are expected to use exact words for Pushback, Eng failures etc, but you have never found anything written in SOP's??????????? wow..... Well you could try reading VOL 2 Pt 2. Or you could pickup the QRH, in the front of the 777 QRH is a nice little section dealing with "mouth music" Or better still have a look in the "best practices" section of Flight Ops website, there you will find heaps of PPT presentations on anything you need. Even the port pages have info on what to say, to whom and when to say it.
The information is there my friend, you just need to open a book to find it.
It's not rocket science.
Cathay like all other airlines I've been with do expect a certain level of pre-study and knowledge of the books before training.
Whilst there are some checkers in Cathay that "have an excellent grasp of the non-essential" most are really top blokes.
Anyway at the end of the day this is how Cathay do it, full stop end of story, so you either like it or go play with another train set. It's that simple really.
You should have been on the classic or the 1011, they used to argue over a difference of 5 miles for TOD!!!!! Things are a lot lot better now.
cheers
ACMS

[Five Green]

I say again....

ACMS:

I think you made my point. They are spread out in manuals and on the computer and do not constitute SOPs. They are "Best practices", techniques and methods. They need to be written in FCOM 3 in a rational and orderly way. As they are at many airlines today. You have been here awhile maybe you should get a copy of a N. American airlines SOPs and you would see the difference.

There are plenty of top blokes who write a ERAS reports for a sucessful ride which end up failing the JFO or Command candidate when the reports go before the star chamber. I would be embarassed to say I was in CX check and training. The failure rate in this company is attrocious. That does not even take into account the number of people who get knocked back before they even get a course. When you put your name in the hat for command you have a 50% chance of making it through all the hoops. When you do your JFO upgrade you have a 75% chance of being held back at least once. Whether you make it or not is largely due to who you are checked by. Some of these failures occur as a result of your overall file. A file made up of all of your checks and sims. So each negative mark no matter how unjust adds up ( or can). So the SOPS are a factor because they are not pedantic enough, and yet the checking is extremely pedantic. I can't believe that the company is happy paying for all these extra courses.

So ACMS do you think that the failure rate is acceptable ? Do you think that this problem will go away as we expand and hire more pilots from around the world ? Can we be a little more open minded about analysing the problems than "well it is better than when I was on the L-1011" or "the info is there you just have to llok for it!"?

This is a good job once you accept that command is not guaranteed and your career depends on luck of the draw. It could be a great job.

I hope we hire lots of N. Americans. They usually speak their minds and have valuable experience.

[SkyCruiser]

Five Greens,

I think you have hit the nail right on the head. No matter how good you file is, just one negative mark and it's all over.

I feel that the ERAS system should be thrown into Victoria Harbour.

The failure rate for upgrades is out of control; any other airline failure rate like CX would have the aviation controlling authority (CAA, FAA) coming down on the training department like a tonne of bricks. But it helps when your airline is the CAD.

All this "well you should have seen it years ago" is no excuse for the current way the training, star chamber operate. This is an international, widebody, first class airline, not a local flying club from the 1970's.


Rant over......

[corporal klinger]

always the same story : as soon as you critisize the "training" methods of cx, you are a laid-back,lazy,immature disgrace to your profession and it is a miracle you didn't crash yesterday.


I have never worked for an airline wich treated their pilots like this


everybody thinking about joining : don't let you fool you by this RT discussion. It is not like "well than I am using all the correct RT phrases and I am o.k " . forget it, it is not about beeing a good or bad pilot. it is about a sick system out of control.

[BusyB]

Does he really work for us?

He's right though, there must be something wrong with a system that has let him stay!!