Cathay dispute/ Hiring Ban
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b/bus
the 49ers cause is just, the rostering is ar$e.....you'll find no detractors here....nor amongst most of the new joiners.
did you know that:
1. some new joiners were interviewed and even signed contracts before the ban,
2. when they attempted to get their cse delayed, CX said "it is not our current policy to offer another course date"...ie: take it or leave it,
3. some new joiners have letters from IFALPA recommending exemptions from the ban,
4. by the letter of the law (not intent, i admit) you must be an ALPA member, to be subject to the ban (admittedly that does not mean AOA have to let you play in their sand box)
the new joiners are not out to buck the system, they are in an equally tight bind....blacklist or umemployment! they have resigned from their previous companies and those jobs are now history.
the AOA must fight for the 49ers first and foremost...that is agreed...but what crime have these new joiners committed (given that some have letters from IFALPA)?
....what would you have done 9 years ago?
Some new joiners may not give a to$$, but I tell you some do. Some, my friend, are willing to pay union fees (5%) to support the 49ers too! (despite the fact the membership opening smites them)....and you speak of GOODWILL?.
I wish I was so confident as to tar all and sundry with the same brush..... but I guess its your train set.
Goodluck to all at CX, the 49ers and new joiners alike..... the battlelines have been drawn seemingly on passion rather than reason.
the 49ers cause is just, the rostering is ar$e.....you'll find no detractors here....nor amongst most of the new joiners.
did you know that:
1. some new joiners were interviewed and even signed contracts before the ban,
2. when they attempted to get their cse delayed, CX said "it is not our current policy to offer another course date"...ie: take it or leave it,
3. some new joiners have letters from IFALPA recommending exemptions from the ban,
4. by the letter of the law (not intent, i admit) you must be an ALPA member, to be subject to the ban (admittedly that does not mean AOA have to let you play in their sand box)
the new joiners are not out to buck the system, they are in an equally tight bind....blacklist or umemployment! they have resigned from their previous companies and those jobs are now history.
the AOA must fight for the 49ers first and foremost...that is agreed...but what crime have these new joiners committed (given that some have letters from IFALPA)?
....what would you have done 9 years ago?
Some new joiners may not give a to$$, but I tell you some do. Some, my friend, are willing to pay union fees (5%) to support the 49ers too! (despite the fact the membership opening smites them)....and you speak of GOODWILL?.
I wish I was so confident as to tar all and sundry with the same brush..... but I guess its your train set.
Goodluck to all at CX, the 49ers and new joiners alike..... the battlelines have been drawn seemingly on passion rather than reason.
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Are you lot aware of what is going on in the big world? Have you heard of Bin Liner? The 49 are now irrelevant, there are now literally thousands itching to take your jobs. Read your local rag which included this from Ms Co the airline analyst at Solomon's;
"Cathay can't cut anyone else until they deal with the pilots first. If they cut other staff and left the pilots alone, morale would plummet because other staff would view the situation as being highly unfair," an airline analyst said.
"That's why I think the airline is going to be brutal with its pilots when the axe finally falls."
Get real guys and help your airline survive.
"Cathay can't cut anyone else until they deal with the pilots first. If they cut other staff and left the pilots alone, morale would plummet because other staff would view the situation as being highly unfair," an airline analyst said.
"That's why I think the airline is going to be brutal with its pilots when the axe finally falls."
Get real guys and help your airline survive.
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Blunderbus proves the point that the goodwill is still there.All that is required is a workable roster. To get a workable roster requires certainty...which only the particpants can provide.
Everyone cares about all the staff in CX that make it work. The product works because everyone pulls together.
I was moved by the comments of the engineer, speaking on behalf of his colleagues.Here here.
Management is not going to throw people in the street like the US carriers if they can possibly avoid it.Look at the track record over the past 40 years not just the past few years.
This is still a family company at heart and blood is still thicker than water.Families that stick together grow together through the good times as well as the bad times.
I concede that 4 sick days in 20 years of service is not likley to ever be the norm again but believe me it used to be...actually when Norm was DFO...as much for personal pride as for love of queen and company.
Everyone cares about all the staff in CX that make it work. The product works because everyone pulls together.
I was moved by the comments of the engineer, speaking on behalf of his colleagues.Here here.
Management is not going to throw people in the street like the US carriers if they can possibly avoid it.Look at the track record over the past 40 years not just the past few years.
This is still a family company at heart and blood is still thicker than water.Families that stick together grow together through the good times as well as the bad times.
I concede that 4 sick days in 20 years of service is not likley to ever be the norm again but believe me it used to be...actually when Norm was DFO...as much for personal pride as for love of queen and company.
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Nonsense.
CX a family Company? May have been in the past, now it is a money making (or losing) commercial enterprise, subject to the pressures of the marketplace.
If the pilots don't like it now, they have an option, simply leave. End of story.
CX a family Company? May have been in the past, now it is a money making (or losing) commercial enterprise, subject to the pressures of the marketplace.
If the pilots don't like it now, they have an option, simply leave. End of story.
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411A
You are wrong...so very wrong.
Sure it is now a publicly listed company subject to all the EBIT proctology that applies to any company. The basic core of both management and staff however still consider it family.
If you are one of us and don't then so be it but a show of hands would tell a different story.
JS&S still call the shots..and they are family.
Look at the queue to get in and you will understand that it is still an employer of choice.
You are wrong...so very wrong.
Sure it is now a publicly listed company subject to all the EBIT proctology that applies to any company. The basic core of both management and staff however still consider it family.
If you are one of us and don't then so be it but a show of hands would tell a different story.
JS&S still call the shots..and they are family.
Look at the queue to get in and you will understand that it is still an employer of choice.
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Then I guess if you think the 400 is the oldest in the fleet you are not with the program....
...and I just got an email from a distant relative, an Ansett C&C on the 737 who says there are 738 of his colleagues (including him), many with a CV which would have got them a LH-seat job anywhere 6 months ago, all knocking on the door.
Mark my words... CX will not discard the current deck if they can avoid it in spite of the well documented troubles. Grown men and women don't throw out the bathwater ...especially those that remember when HK ran out of water and it was shipped in via ship from China.
Swire and Cathay were built with the goodwill of the staff. Noone is more acutley aware of that than the management.
...and I just got an email from a distant relative, an Ansett C&C on the 737 who says there are 738 of his colleagues (including him), many with a CV which would have got them a LH-seat job anywhere 6 months ago, all knocking on the door.
Mark my words... CX will not discard the current deck if they can avoid it in spite of the well documented troubles. Grown men and women don't throw out the bathwater ...especially those that remember when HK ran out of water and it was shipped in via ship from China.
Swire and Cathay were built with the goodwill of the staff. Noone is more acutley aware of that than the management.
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Well Traffic, for your argument to ring true, the problems that you are having with CX management would/should have been solved long ago.
IN fact, they are not, and are not likely to be anytime soon. Right you are about not throwing out the baby with the bathwater, no matter how much it cries. But to expect any improvement over the short/medium term is to be unrealistic unless....
IF it could be PROVEN (and not just to pilots) that the current CX management is the real problem, then the pilots, as a collective group, have a chance.
Under the present circumstances, this will be a tall order indeed. Your PR is (to say the least) lousy. You need a professional PR guy to help your cause, and he should have been in place a long time ago.
IN fact, they are not, and are not likely to be anytime soon. Right you are about not throwing out the baby with the bathwater, no matter how much it cries. But to expect any improvement over the short/medium term is to be unrealistic unless....
IF it could be PROVEN (and not just to pilots) that the current CX management is the real problem, then the pilots, as a collective group, have a chance.
Under the present circumstances, this will be a tall order indeed. Your PR is (to say the least) lousy. You need a professional PR guy to help your cause, and he should have been in place a long time ago.
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Traffic is absolutely right.
CX used to be a wonderful company to work for and it is a terrible shame that things have gone so wrong. There is no point in allocating blame as there is fault on both sides, but it is a little bit hard to feel much sympathy for the AOA claim at present.
I must say that if I was given a job at CX right now it would be a real pleasure not to have to make polite conversation with, and listen to a boring diatribe from, someone on the flight deck who is so lacking in professionalism that he would take his beef with the company onto the flight deck and take it out on a bloke who had just joined CX to feed his family, just as much the outraged silent AOA super hero was.(I know that "feeding his family" is ridiculously dramatic but it seems to be the sort of theatrical yuckspeak that the AOA favours these days). But of course my opinions will fall on stony ground because AOA members don't read this site any more.
Traffic, you got me on one thing. Who was Norm, or am I being thick again. I remember, (in chronological order), BW, JH, GC and of course dear old KB, but who the hell is Norm. Traffic, are you even older than me??
CX used to be a wonderful company to work for and it is a terrible shame that things have gone so wrong. There is no point in allocating blame as there is fault on both sides, but it is a little bit hard to feel much sympathy for the AOA claim at present.
I must say that if I was given a job at CX right now it would be a real pleasure not to have to make polite conversation with, and listen to a boring diatribe from, someone on the flight deck who is so lacking in professionalism that he would take his beef with the company onto the flight deck and take it out on a bloke who had just joined CX to feed his family, just as much the outraged silent AOA super hero was.(I know that "feeding his family" is ridiculously dramatic but it seems to be the sort of theatrical yuckspeak that the AOA favours these days). But of course my opinions will fall on stony ground because AOA members don't read this site any more.
Traffic, you got me on one thing. Who was Norm, or am I being thick again. I remember, (in chronological order), BW, JH, GC and of course dear old KB, but who the hell is Norm. Traffic, are you even older than me??
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411A
Not necessarily.
It was not much more than a decade ago that CX was smaller than Dragonair is today. The company has gone through some serious growing pains and done it pretty well, all things considered.
The one thing that has happened though is that there has been a disconnect in direct communication between H/O management and the aircrews. Given the number of people now on the payroll this was an inevitable development.In this day and age pilots are no longer the centre of the universe. Indeed, even if David Turnbull had the time, there are more strategically vital assets and issues that require management attention.
This direct communication was replaced by a layer of people acting as the modem and gatekeeper. They were often pilots with ambition and drive but often as not lacking in the communication skills to handle what I would loosely call the pastoral role.Manging up not down.
Throw into this vacuum the need to slow down the gravy train with the A & B scales and you had fertile ground for the AOA to start taking steroids to fill the vacuum.
What we now have is another modem in the form of the AOA that can't communicate with the other modem that is connected to H/O.It is in fact pilots disconnected from pilots...poor CRM if you will...on the ground.
This is a fight essentially between management pilots and their colleagues in the AOA. It is not a fight per se between the management of the airline and the pilots. More like the students of a school believing all the prefects are pillocks.
As to PR and duelling in the press, this is a no-win for everyone. Like trying to negotiate with your wife through a lawyer.
What is needed is less PR not more.
PR can't fix disputes it can only promote a product and a brand.
FWIW
Not necessarily.
It was not much more than a decade ago that CX was smaller than Dragonair is today. The company has gone through some serious growing pains and done it pretty well, all things considered.
The one thing that has happened though is that there has been a disconnect in direct communication between H/O management and the aircrews. Given the number of people now on the payroll this was an inevitable development.In this day and age pilots are no longer the centre of the universe. Indeed, even if David Turnbull had the time, there are more strategically vital assets and issues that require management attention.
This direct communication was replaced by a layer of people acting as the modem and gatekeeper. They were often pilots with ambition and drive but often as not lacking in the communication skills to handle what I would loosely call the pastoral role.Manging up not down.
Throw into this vacuum the need to slow down the gravy train with the A & B scales and you had fertile ground for the AOA to start taking steroids to fill the vacuum.
What we now have is another modem in the form of the AOA that can't communicate with the other modem that is connected to H/O.It is in fact pilots disconnected from pilots...poor CRM if you will...on the ground.
This is a fight essentially between management pilots and their colleagues in the AOA. It is not a fight per se between the management of the airline and the pilots. More like the students of a school believing all the prefects are pillocks.
As to PR and duelling in the press, this is a no-win for everyone. Like trying to negotiate with your wife through a lawyer.
What is needed is less PR not more.
PR can't fix disputes it can only promote a product and a brand.
FWIW
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Traffic...
Fair enough. There has been a massive breakdown in communication between "us" and "them" (you?). What is just beyond my comprehension is that a "face-saving" exercise is whats keeping a resolution away. Fix this. It's easy: RE-EMPLOY the 49. After they're in, wag your finger at them. Tell them they have been bad, bad boys and they're on thin ice. A final warning. Back as "probes". Whatever. Then we can work this out. Only one other thing: Tell Tyler to SHUT UP. More managers than pilots bury their heads in their hands when he speaks!
And yes..."loosely call the pastoral role. Manging up not down" Manging? You mean you're...?
[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: Kubota ]
Fair enough. There has been a massive breakdown in communication between "us" and "them" (you?). What is just beyond my comprehension is that a "face-saving" exercise is whats keeping a resolution away. Fix this. It's easy: RE-EMPLOY the 49. After they're in, wag your finger at them. Tell them they have been bad, bad boys and they're on thin ice. A final warning. Back as "probes". Whatever. Then we can work this out. Only one other thing: Tell Tyler to SHUT UP. More managers than pilots bury their heads in their hands when he speaks!
And yes..."loosely call the pastoral role. Manging up not down" Manging? You mean you're...?
[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: Kubota ]
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Kubota...Japanese tractor?? Great product..got one myself.
Finger trouble. What I meant to say was that the 'prefects" are managing up instead of down.
It is not an us and them thing really.
PS...The "them?"meaning me? If an answer is really required, I am happy to give one. NO.
Finger trouble. What I meant to say was that the 'prefects" are managing up instead of down.
It is not an us and them thing really.
PS...The "them?"meaning me? If an answer is really required, I am happy to give one. NO.
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Pontius
I shouldn't have answered your question with another quiz..perhaps I am older.
Before Brian Whiteman...an aussie dressed up as a to and from...the only person to come near stalling a 1011....there was, and my memory fades somewhat...Norm Marsh and before that a few shared tasks..Laurie King (more of an Oliver Cromwell than a King really...and father of Brian). Before that there was Ken Steil...father of Bill.
As the resident historian from Anderson to Yates...can't recall anyone further down the alphabet food chain...feel free to ask me what you will.
As to KB ..me thinks there is and was . In addition to Barley I think F/E Ken Barnes was also DFO...affectionately referred to by all but Joan (ex-Mrs Barnes) as Mr Barnes.
The real point here is that there are still enough guys around...and BlunderBus proves the point...who actually care ...that is how the problem will be solved.
I shouldn't have answered your question with another quiz..perhaps I am older.
Before Brian Whiteman...an aussie dressed up as a to and from...the only person to come near stalling a 1011....there was, and my memory fades somewhat...Norm Marsh and before that a few shared tasks..Laurie King (more of an Oliver Cromwell than a King really...and father of Brian). Before that there was Ken Steil...father of Bill.
As the resident historian from Anderson to Yates...can't recall anyone further down the alphabet food chain...feel free to ask me what you will.
As to KB ..me thinks there is and was . In addition to Barley I think F/E Ken Barnes was also DFO...affectionately referred to by all but Joan (ex-Mrs Barnes) as Mr Barnes.
The real point here is that there are still enough guys around...and BlunderBus proves the point...who actually care ...that is how the problem will be solved.
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Traffic, I remember LK when he joined SIA in 1979 after having retired from CX...he sure was NOT liked by the local F/O's...quite a terror in the cockpit, I believe. All this was pre-CRM, of course.
