Scab List!
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
From: A large cold land...
Kaptain M, you've hit the nail on the head. All the Cathay Pilot's have done thus far is to work to their contract - nothing more. Anywhere else in the world it would have no consquence, a company would expect nothing less. You sign a contract, that is what you are contracted to perform.
The withdrawal of good will has shown this management for what it is, extremely poor planners and decision makers who put an inordinate trust in the good will of the work force to ensure the continued operation of a multi - billion dollar company.
The answer is obvious. Throw the union a bone, get back to the negotiating table and deal with the situation like honourable men. To get the good will back, to get the Airline back will require cooler heads to prevail on the management side. Dare I say, some of those heads will roll in order to clean this mess up.
In this game of poker losses are mounting on all sides.
TTYL
The withdrawal of good will has shown this management for what it is, extremely poor planners and decision makers who put an inordinate trust in the good will of the work force to ensure the continued operation of a multi - billion dollar company.
The answer is obvious. Throw the union a bone, get back to the negotiating table and deal with the situation like honourable men. To get the good will back, to get the Airline back will require cooler heads to prevail on the management side. Dare I say, some of those heads will roll in order to clean this mess up.
In this game of poker losses are mounting on all sides.
TTYL
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
From: Hong Kong
Tornado Ali was leaving CX a couple of years ago. He told us that he had had enough and he was going to join Emirates. What happened TA? Did you see the Emirates contract and decide you were better off at CX, or did Emirates turn you down?
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
Messages on !!!!!!!!!!!!!! indicate that the CX pilots in LAX are being watched very closly by management types to see if the pilots are unnecessaraly delaying flights. Wonder if this is going on system-wide?
The drama continues......
The drama continues......
Guest
Posts: n/a
Very easy to ask for better conditions. Ask any of the guys who are just plain dying for a job, and are willing to be SFOs for 3 yrs.In exchange for a pay cheque and a some good ole flying.
Yes I am all for the guys in CX asking for better conditions but dont ask "No Job JOEs"
not to apply for something that might make their lives better...
Yes I am all for the guys in CX asking for better conditions but dont ask "No Job JOEs"
not to apply for something that might make their lives better...
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Tea/coffee,
In Cathay-speak, a SFO is a Senior First Officer. I think you mean SO (Second Officer).
You say that you would happily do 3 years as a Second Officer. If however, nobody (those presently in CX and new joiners) support the guys that were fired the AOA would then cease to act as a "Union" and then seniority/promotion/ pay/condition would be at the whim of the company. You could be a SO for a very long time... assuming of course that you don't mis-read your roster and get fired!.. that'll look good on your CV... hope you didn't buy a flat in HKG.. or were forced to buy a debenture in the school.. wife is pregnant...
But what the hell you've got 800 P2X time..
It's your choice, keep an open mind.
In Cathay-speak, a SFO is a Senior First Officer. I think you mean SO (Second Officer).
You say that you would happily do 3 years as a Second Officer. If however, nobody (those presently in CX and new joiners) support the guys that were fired the AOA would then cease to act as a "Union" and then seniority/promotion/ pay/condition would be at the whim of the company. You could be a SO for a very long time... assuming of course that you don't mis-read your roster and get fired!.. that'll look good on your CV... hope you didn't buy a flat in HKG.. or were forced to buy a debenture in the school.. wife is pregnant...
But what the hell you've got 800 P2X time..
It's your choice, keep an open mind.
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
From: The Orion Arm
It's interesting, and entirely predictable, to see old "friends" like eyes wide shut and IB57 etc espousing their tired old wind-up prejudices on us ... every time there's a dispute. Well, guys, unfortunately for you your ignorance has been sharply brought into focus. As has been explained here ad nauseam, ad infinitum, the work to rule currently in effect does not involve anything other than working to the letter of an employment contract. If you want to derive some kind of phony philosophy from that, then keep going - you'll no doubt find something that sits comfortably within the bounds of what you would call "safe morality"
This dispute is both simple and complex. It involves a shonky management, labour laws that fail to direct either party, and a union that has had to take multiple hits in quick succession - that hasn't regrouped as quickly as would have been ideal. But don't blame them for that - nobody's perfect, and under those conditions it is unlikely any labour organisation could have prevented what happened.
Now there is an IFALPA Recruitment Ban in place. I have to say that, for a dispute of this nature, such an action is highly unusual, and introduces a new level of complexity into the situation. Now such an action would be entirely appropriate for a work stoppage or lockout type situation, or something similar, but a work to rule is different, and necessarily so. With a work to rule the workers still (despite appearances here) have some measure of control with respect to the direction the action is taking, in theory at least. Notwithstanding that the sackings have (at least for those immediately affected) a similar industrial effect as a lockout, and therefore a recruitment ban is, at first glance, indicated, I think there is scope for some measure of discretion to be applied. CXWANNABE, I know what you are saying, and I agree with you, but as far as new entrants to the company are concerned, provided they are members in good standing of an IFALPA affiliated organisation, and provided they join the HKAOA on arrival in HK, then I think the more "good guys" you have on board the better. Obviously this goodwill should only extend to those who can show a good track record, which would be no problem for any of them, if indeed they are good guys.
In theory, now none of this would be possible with a recruitment ban in place. OK, for those contemplating applying, fine. They can simply GO AWAY until the dispute is resolved. But what about those who have already commenced the selection process? Should they tell Cathay thanks, but not this time, and have their application binned only to have the dispute work its way to conclusion days later? To effectively kill your career simply because of bad timing doesn't seem right. Of course the HKAOA could take the names of all those who choose not to take up positions and then petition the Company when the dust settles - but would they listen?
Since there is no stoppage in place, and since any new entrants won't be direct entry Capts or FOs, then they aren't scabs, not at least in the traditional sense of the term - my dictionary lists "scab" as "one who works during an industrial dispute" which would, by that definition, make EVERYONE at CX a scab. Now can you see the complexity of the situation?
I believe that this situation does not warrant a recruitment ban, but a message to all IFALPA affiliates to STRONGLY DISCOURAGE anyone from applying would, in my view, have been more equitable. You might say, well, sod that, we need to go as hard as possible. That's all very well, but if working to a document is the hardest you can go, as appears to be the case, then the bargaining position was never that great.
Good luck to the guys and girls in the AOA, to those who have been fired, hang in there, to all those wanting to apply, DON'T, to those who have applied, and get accepted, JOIN THE AOA - that will be the most important thing you will ever do.
DH
This dispute is both simple and complex. It involves a shonky management, labour laws that fail to direct either party, and a union that has had to take multiple hits in quick succession - that hasn't regrouped as quickly as would have been ideal. But don't blame them for that - nobody's perfect, and under those conditions it is unlikely any labour organisation could have prevented what happened.
Now there is an IFALPA Recruitment Ban in place. I have to say that, for a dispute of this nature, such an action is highly unusual, and introduces a new level of complexity into the situation. Now such an action would be entirely appropriate for a work stoppage or lockout type situation, or something similar, but a work to rule is different, and necessarily so. With a work to rule the workers still (despite appearances here) have some measure of control with respect to the direction the action is taking, in theory at least. Notwithstanding that the sackings have (at least for those immediately affected) a similar industrial effect as a lockout, and therefore a recruitment ban is, at first glance, indicated, I think there is scope for some measure of discretion to be applied. CXWANNABE, I know what you are saying, and I agree with you, but as far as new entrants to the company are concerned, provided they are members in good standing of an IFALPA affiliated organisation, and provided they join the HKAOA on arrival in HK, then I think the more "good guys" you have on board the better. Obviously this goodwill should only extend to those who can show a good track record, which would be no problem for any of them, if indeed they are good guys.
In theory, now none of this would be possible with a recruitment ban in place. OK, for those contemplating applying, fine. They can simply GO AWAY until the dispute is resolved. But what about those who have already commenced the selection process? Should they tell Cathay thanks, but not this time, and have their application binned only to have the dispute work its way to conclusion days later? To effectively kill your career simply because of bad timing doesn't seem right. Of course the HKAOA could take the names of all those who choose not to take up positions and then petition the Company when the dust settles - but would they listen?
Since there is no stoppage in place, and since any new entrants won't be direct entry Capts or FOs, then they aren't scabs, not at least in the traditional sense of the term - my dictionary lists "scab" as "one who works during an industrial dispute" which would, by that definition, make EVERYONE at CX a scab. Now can you see the complexity of the situation?
I believe that this situation does not warrant a recruitment ban, but a message to all IFALPA affiliates to STRONGLY DISCOURAGE anyone from applying would, in my view, have been more equitable. You might say, well, sod that, we need to go as hard as possible. That's all very well, but if working to a document is the hardest you can go, as appears to be the case, then the bargaining position was never that great.
Good luck to the guys and girls in the AOA, to those who have been fired, hang in there, to all those wanting to apply, DON'T, to those who have applied, and get accepted, JOIN THE AOA - that will be the most important thing you will ever do.
DH
