mazzy1026

After several months of being a member of the PPRUNE community, it appears to me that everybody wants to do the one thing "be a commercial airline pilot".

However, I am different. I dont want to be an airline pilot. My main goal is to become a flying instructor - probably part time.

Am I mad to say this ? Am I the only one ? People here usually say they would be a flying instructor just to build hours towards flying for an airline.

I have good prospects in the IT industry and will graduate next year. I will start PPL training then everything else etc then would be happy to look for some instructing work part time as well as my IT career.

Is anybody else in roughly the same boat and how difficult is it these days to become an instructor ?

I have read so many negative things about being an instructor - the main one being the lack of pay - but this is why I would settle for part time - I just love flying and teaching other people - passing on knowledge to help others.

Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Best wishes

Lee

AIRWAY

Hello,

Yes me two, until recently i was aiming towards an airline pilot career, and maybe that will be my goal, but for now i am concentrating in getting my PPL and then my Uni studies in Australia which will follow later on.

Im not rulling out and Airline Career at the moment i have so many decisions to make, and i cant make my mind up, i wish i could have all of it, but i can't.

I wouldnt mind instructing and doing charter work around Australia, that would be a great experience.

Pilot Pete

Mazzy

There are always the two types of flying instructor at most schools - the ones who are hour building and the ones like yourself who are doing it for the love of it.

There are two sides to everything and indeed just because someone wants to go on to an airline career it does not necessarily make them a bad instructor. I met two of the best instructors during my training and they were both from this stable.

What I would say is that the career instructors tend to be the ones who provide the continuity at a school and it could be argued that they eventually do become better instructors due to their vast instructing experience. I know that is a mass generalisation, as they can get set in their ways just as much, but I think if you are doing it for the pure love of it then that must be reflected in your attitude and instructional style.

So with that in mind I think you are going to have your cake and eat it! Instruct for the love of it, and earn a decent wage which will allow the lifestyle choices that you (probably) want to make from IT.

I think the majority of posters in the 'Wannabes' forums (fora?) are by definition wannabe airline pilots, hence why they tend to view instructing as a way of keeping current and building hours after qualification. Perhaps the view might be slightly different in the Flying Instructors and Examiners forum?

I wish you well with your choices.

PP

mazzy1026

PP

Thanks for your reply - I agree completely with what you say. Sorry if you thought I was having a go at the hour builders - didnt mean anything by this at all - no offence intended, just a way of categorising I suppose!

I read a thread the other day from a guy who flies airlines - and he detailed the negatives of it all, like long haul, crap hotels, low pay etc. He/she was saying how every flight becomes routine and the same - I dont know but this is what was said.

I would be the happiest guy to be able to just get up in the morning, drive to my local airfield (Liverpool John Lennon) and teach people to fly in a Piper ! What a life eh !

I'm already trying to get some ground duties there to start me off and help in my training so hopefully this will be successful.

Best wishes

Lee

Malcolm G O Payne

If I may add my bit,(alittle late), you will have far greater job satisfaction as a career instructor. I flew for almost fifty years before the docs pulled my licence. More than half of it was instructing, the rest being in other GA jobs, plus 8 years RAF, but it still gives me great pleasure when I come across a former student who still remembers that I sent them on their first solo.
Financially a disappointment, but great satisfaction.

Wee Weasley Welshman

Don't ignore the crap students with no aptitude an attitude and who mess you about. The marginal weather, the ropey aircraft and the huge responsibility involved.

Don't forget that the career or hours building instructors will hate you for your casual labout - don't really need the money, do it for fun - status. You undermine them.

Consider that teaching S&L, Circuits, Area Nav blah blah can get very very dull after a while. Loads of fun for a while but maybe a but repetitive and limited over a number of years...

Good luck though. Its better than NOT being a pilot/instructor.

Cheers

WWW

dorosenco

Mazzy1026,

I'm part of that group who loves teaching but I'm doing it to built time. So, don't forget that there are instructors out there who love it and do it for hour building also.
As an airline job, it WILL become routine sooner or later. Sometimes I'm getting tired of doing circuits over and over again with some lazy students. Good students are going very fast through the training and finish in a short period of time, so I don't really have time to enjoy them ... Sometimes I'm getting tired of flying the same old crap airplanes with always something not working properly and making no money.

It really depends on the lifestyle that you are looking for. If you want to be home every night and fly only out of your local airport then go for instructor. If you want to see the world, make descent money and don't mind being away from home as well as fly more sophisticated machines than a PA28 or C152, then go for the airlines ...

good luck anyway,

mazzy1026

Guys - thank you for all your reply's they are superb.

I don't want anyone to think that I have something against the hour building pilots who instruct for a while - I have a lot of respect for anyone flying whatever they do and have nothing whatsoever against anybody doing this.

I think at first it is a lot of peoples dreams to fly the airlines but over time and after being a member here, I have realised that the route to airline pilot is impossible if you do not have a lot of money to train yourself. The job opportunities simply aren't there.

I think in time I probably could do all the training but it would take a long time. What's more is that no matter what job you are in - it will always become routine and different to when you first started - every single job has it's drawbacks but I would rather have drawbacks doing what I love, than sitting at this desk I'm at now.

I think instructing part-time would be brilliant. It would cure my bug for flying and I would still be able to fly privately after all - it's not all teaching lazy students ! Working full time in IT would leave my weekends/evenings free (I hope) to go flying and earn some more money (however low the wage is).

Best of luck everyone and I hope you land the airline jobs.

Lee

jerezflyer

Happy New Year everyone:

I would like some good advice, educated guesses and opinions.

Let me set the scene briefly: 35 y/o (going on 36), married, one child, professionally qualified and in well paid employment as a project manager, PPL hopefully by the end of the month...........and a passion for flying since childhood and serious about a career change (if viable).

I have done very extensive research on becoming a professional pilot (courses, prices, requirements, pprune, etc.), and I believe I understand more or less how the complex world of flight training works.

The way I see it two paths are open for me:
1.Become a career instructor (cheaper, quicker and less risk)
2. Attempt to become airline F/O material (expensive, longer and more risk).

As far as the training goes, for path 1, I would go: CPL ground, CPL flight training and FI course. Maybe after a few years instructing do a single engine IR.

Path 2 would go, something like this: ATPL ground, ME/IR, CPL, MCC with perhaps an FI.

In terms of my situation, the job prospects for "mature" pilots and the relative merits, pros and cons of each choice - which way would you advise me to go? Is it best to stick to the safer option or dive straight into becoming an airline pilot at (almost) 36??

I have read all the previous threads on this subject, and they have been informative.

Thanks for any opinions.

jerezflyer

no sponsor

Has your research covered the wages paid to flying instructors? PPL instruction is woefully bad in terms of cash. CPL/IR instruction is much better paid, but you will need an IR and ME to do this, plus a good level of experience with PPL instruction. So unless you can live on poor wages for 12-24 months, you might not want to spend the cash in the first place.

I would go straight for the ATPL exams, rather than the writtens for CPL and the IR.

Luke SkyToddler

36 aint that old ... I'd go airline pilot all the way

Just because everyone in this forum is obsessed with getting into a handful of finicky top-shelf jet operators doesn't mean there isn't plenty of turboprop, corporate and regional jet operators who'd hire you just as readily as any other punter with an FATPL.

And no sponsor is right w.r.t. FI wages, they are appalling and in some cases non existent for low hour FI's, don't go down that road unless you are prepared to factor in the hidden cost of trying to live for nothing / pay the mortgage etc. Things may have improved in the 3 or 4 years since I last instructed but for example, as a PPL instructor I was on a £500 / month basic retainer and £6 per hour flown - i.e. £800 gross, before tax, per month, was a good month for me

It's harder now than it used to be to get into the well paid instructing, i.e. ME and IR stuff, as well with all these requirements for multi engine PIC before you can even start to go down that road.

Dnathan

Why not both?

As far as I know, the best way to build hours today is still flight instruction. If you take your IR and ATPL's now you save the CPL written exams.

When you get your FI licence, and especially if you get your ME FI license, you will become more attractive to the airliners. I don't know how things look in the UK by now, but in the US you can 'easily' get at least an airliner interview with say 400 hours multi out of 1200 TT.

And for the record, I believe you will need an instrument rating do to any kind of flight instruction.

Cheers

Luke SkyToddler

Very different here in the UK Dnathan

You don't need an instrument rating to instruct, in fact most instructors don't have one.

You can't just go and do an ME instructor rating either, I believe the minimum requirement to even sit the multi instructor flight test is 100 hours multi PIC (and who's going to buy THAT at £350ish per hour just so they can instruct?) Multi instructing seems to be pretty much the domain of crusty old ex- airline pilots over here.

Fan Marker

For heavens sake, stick with your own profession. The romance of aviation is just a dream. Airlines are rubbish firms to work for. Corporate operators are either rubbish or psychotic. Instructing can be fun, but often not well paid (as previously stated).
What you should do is to develop your existing career and fly for fun. You could even instruct for fun but don't expect to achieve a fulfilling new career in aviation from this late start. You command respect at the moment but you will have to kow-tow to the most idiotic people and requests if you start out in aviation. You are too old to be taken seriously and you will end up disapointed and disillusioned. This is the reality that people seem unwilling to recognise. Sorry to give you the bad news.
PS Please please please dont ask the opinion of the flying schools. They won't tell you the truth.

portsharbourflyer

There seems to be a niche for everyone, I have one colleage whom at the age of forty just got his first airline job. I called into my old training school a year back, managed to get talking to a Captain from a corporate operator, he told me at the age of 27 (now 28) he considered me too young to work in the corporate field , as it was necessary to present a mature image to the customers, irrespective of the actual experience of the person.

You can do most of the training on a part time basis while keeping your job (IR will need to be done full time), it will be hard work, exhausting; at the end of the day the worst thing that happens is your still in your current job and part time instructing. At best you get the break and get a flying job of some description. To instruct multi you will need an unrestricted FI rating, 30 hours of multi p1 piston time and a five hour MEI upgrade course, I know of several multi instructor who do not have an airline background. Search the instructors forum and you will see the requirements for teaching IR.

FlyingForFun

Not all that much to add to the previous posts, except that I am a little further down the road of career instructor, so thought I might relate my experiences so far.

First of all, do take note of all of the posts about instructor wages. As a PPL instructor, you can expect an absolute maximum of 10-12K - much lower than that in winter, when shorter days and bad weather stop you from doing so much flying. As a married man with a child, are you sure your family can support themselves on that kind of wage? Also, would your family be happy moving around the country? There are around 100 PPL schools in the country, and around 20 CPL/IR schools - with numbers like that, you will have to take any job offer which comes along, regardless of where in the country it is, if you want to make a living out of instructing. I was single when I started out on the flying instructor thing, with no kids. I am now engaged, but my fiancee has always known from the day we met what my career aspirations are, and is more than happy to support me through it, financially if necessary as well as in other ways, but if I had a partner or kids before I started out, I don't think I would have done it.

As others have said, the only way of making money out of being a flying instructor is to teach CPL/IR. In order to do that, you will need a CPL/IR yourself. The training path I took was this:

- ATPL exams, CPL, FIC, then start work to build up experience. Whilst working as an instructor, then you can do the MEP course, then an ME IR. As soon as you start working as an instructor, work on removing the supervisory restriction from your license, and also do the course to remove the No Night Instruction restriction from your license. Once you have the supervisory restriction removed, do the course to remove your No Applied Instrument Instruction restriction. That's where I'm up to right now.

Along the way, make sure you take every opportunity to log multi-engine P1 hours - you will need 30 of these (not 100 as Luke SkyToddler says), including 10 in the last 12 months, to become a multi-engine instructor. You might also consider getting an IMC rating during your hour-building, and doing a fair portion of your hour-building under IFR.

If you decide to go down this route, it is a long hard slog, but extremely rewarding if it's what you really want to do.

Hope that helps,

FFF
---------------

spiritwings

At the risk of sounding negative - here goes - I am the wife of a Flying Instructor who has 1000 hours and fATPL IR. We have three children and his wage for December was £646.00 net - for six days a week. Ask yourself if you could survive on that and think very carefully about your next move. We like many others on this forum set out on this path because he loves aviation and wanted to fly commercially. We sold our house for the cause. Before everyone jumps on my case, I am not whinging, just stating the facts. I remain optimistic that my husband will get a job as he is a great pilot with lots of other qualities to offer any employer. There are positives to being a flight instructor but unfortunately salary is not one of them. I wish you the best of luck with whatever you choose to do.

jerezflyer

Thanks everyone for your input - very informative and usefull in my decision making process. I will certainly take it all on board......

I am under no ilusion that if I get a frozen ATPL I will be successful at changing careers, at best as a turboprop FO. Likewise, I realise that just doing a basic CPL+FI will allow not me to change careers - simply not finacially viable.
However, like most of us, having a passion for aviation I have the habbit of talking people to death about flying and basically I "come alive" if aviation is mentioned in conversation, so I imagine I could make a very enthuisiastic instructor (maybe even a good one!!), but unfortunately not as a full time career, but part-time only at weekends. This way I would let my current career pay the bills and keep the family and bank account relitavely happy.
Perhaps this is the way to go for me, at least I won't be paying to fly, but recieving a small reward for it. Does anybody else do this?

I would do my CPL ground and flight training in UK, but my FI in Spain which is were I live and would eventually instruct.

Thanks again for all of you views and advice - positive and negative.

jerezflyer

no sponsor

Part-time at weekends seems an eminently wise decision. In fact, some more research will indicate that many FIs are in fact part-time, and most PPLers will be training at weekends. This is exactly what I will be doing, but I have all the other bits and pieces (CPL/IR and ME). An 80% drop in salary seems about as inviting as syphilis.

Wee Weasley Welshman

Do the part time instructing for fun thing. Anything else will almost certainly require financial hardship and relocation possibly several times. Not easy with a family and a lifestyle to support.

There's nothing like becoming a professional pilot to knock the love of flying out of you. Its the best way to lose a wonderful hobby..

That said if you have an itch to scratch then you wouldn't be the first or oldest to embark on the mad mad journey to a flightdeck based career.

Good luck,

WWW