Going beyond 1500hrs TT with Instructing?
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Join Date: Mar 1999
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Going beyond 1500hrs TT with Instructing?
hi guys
Any thoughts, merits or otherwise on continueing to instruct when your total time has gone past 1500hrs, most of it Single Engine time??
i.e am I doing myself more harm than good by accumulating more s.e time past this point, when we all know multi is what they want.
Sure there is the keeping yourself current point, but hell I may as well just fly a day a week, until I can get the elusive multi job and get some descent money in the meantime.
Commercial instructing as opposed to PPL instructing seems no different to me in terms of furthering MY career, if that was what I was to progress to by staying instructing.
Any thoughts, merits or otherwise on continueing to instruct when your total time has gone past 1500hrs, most of it Single Engine time??
i.e am I doing myself more harm than good by accumulating more s.e time past this point, when we all know multi is what they want.
Sure there is the keeping yourself current point, but hell I may as well just fly a day a week, until I can get the elusive multi job and get some descent money in the meantime.
Commercial instructing as opposed to PPL instructing seems no different to me in terms of furthering MY career, if that was what I was to progress to by staying instructing.
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Depends whether you enjoy it or not. I love it and with 2000 hrs am quite happy as things are. If it really pisses you off then you might be better off doing something else.
With the jobs situation as it is I can't see that people can really hold it against you if you haven't been able to land an airline job in the last couple of years though (but maybe some recruitment guru would care to contradict that?).
With the jobs situation as it is I can't see that people can really hold it against you if you haven't been able to land an airline job in the last couple of years though (but maybe some recruitment guru would care to contradict that?).
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well, at about 1500 hours I went into commercial instructing and got my airline job at about 3,000 hours, all but about 250 hours of it SE.
In my interview there were several questions on the commercial instructing, overall it appeared to be viewed in a posotive light
In fact since then on my OPC and LPC checks the comment has been made that my views on training should stand me in good stead for the future.
It may not be for you but I would further say that bear in mind when it comes to command there is a minimum amount of hours required, my company counts all my hours in full, single engine or otherwise (bear in mind that there is also a certain amount of time required on company aircraft) so I dont think the extra hours do any harm.
Also, just doing the flying evey day keeps your hand in, what you are doing is raw data flying and the chances are on a sim check after your interview that is exactly the sort of flying you will do- it certainly cant do any harm.! If you can try to get plenty of applyed instrument training in, it will keep your scan up to scratch.I have found that in the airline world one gets a bit lazy with autopilot, flight directors etc and while I now have some experience on jet I wonder how well I would perform on that sim ride now!
In my interview there were several questions on the commercial instructing, overall it appeared to be viewed in a posotive light
In fact since then on my OPC and LPC checks the comment has been made that my views on training should stand me in good stead for the future.
It may not be for you but I would further say that bear in mind when it comes to command there is a minimum amount of hours required, my company counts all my hours in full, single engine or otherwise (bear in mind that there is also a certain amount of time required on company aircraft) so I dont think the extra hours do any harm.
Also, just doing the flying evey day keeps your hand in, what you are doing is raw data flying and the chances are on a sim check after your interview that is exactly the sort of flying you will do- it certainly cant do any harm.! If you can try to get plenty of applyed instrument training in, it will keep your scan up to scratch.I have found that in the airline world one gets a bit lazy with autopilot, flight directors etc and while I now have some experience on jet I wonder how well I would perform on that sim ride now!
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If you are not fully committed to instructing in order to give your student the best possible instruction then you should not be doing it. If your motive is hours in your logbook then GET OUT NOW. You are doing a disservice to the profession. Instructing is a very responsible job which ought to be musch better rewarded than it is but if you are not enjoying it please remove yourself and do something else in order to free the position for someone more committed.
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Good point Delta
Students.......don't ya just love em!
Cr@p pay for cr@p hours to teach people who are cr@p pilots, oh yes real fun and motivation
Just off for another exciting and totally rewarding day, must go
Icn
Students.......don't ya just love em!
Cr@p pay for cr@p hours to teach people who are cr@p pilots, oh yes real fun and motivation
Just off for another exciting and totally rewarding day, must go
Icn
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I'm not a interviewer, but I would view packing in instructing becuase you thought nothing else could be gained from it would hint a little bit of arrogance.
i am sure you agree Delta T that you never stop learning in flying. And that is one reason you should keep going. The more experiences good and bad you have, the more you can chat about at the interview! I agree totally with S&L.
I got my command very quickly due to my amount of hours built whilst instructing. And I am hoping it will hold me in good stead for a Training position to.
If you really don't enjoy it now though. Then I do suggest you give up as it will reflect in the quality of instruction given. I am not suggesting you are, but you need to be honest to your students if thats the case.
i am sure you agree Delta T that you never stop learning in flying. And that is one reason you should keep going. The more experiences good and bad you have, the more you can chat about at the interview! I agree totally with S&L.
I got my command very quickly due to my amount of hours built whilst instructing. And I am hoping it will hold me in good stead for a Training position to.
If you really don't enjoy it now though. Then I do suggest you give up as it will reflect in the quality of instruction given. I am not suggesting you are, but you need to be honest to your students if thats the case.
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DeltaT
Your reaction to cessnababe is inappropriate for a professional instructor, she has simply hit the nail on the head.
Perhaps as most of us, or at least a lot of us might feel, instructing is not the be all and end all however it is still worthy of being seen as more than a route to what some might perceive as a 'respectable' accumulation of hours. If at an interview you can show as a result of your instructing that you have continually strived to better yourself and maintain high standards within an aviation profession how can it go against you ?
If your original intentions when starting out on the instructor path were genuine and you just need a break from it, fair enough take one but you should then at some stage be able to return to it and continue professionally.
Your original post does however seem to suggest that you see it merely as a way of furthering YOUR career in which case I side with cessnababe.
Don't forget you were a student once. What did you expect from your instructors, professionalism or did you only want to learn to fly just well enough to further your career ?
Your reaction to cessnababe is inappropriate for a professional instructor, she has simply hit the nail on the head.
Perhaps as most of us, or at least a lot of us might feel, instructing is not the be all and end all however it is still worthy of being seen as more than a route to what some might perceive as a 'respectable' accumulation of hours. If at an interview you can show as a result of your instructing that you have continually strived to better yourself and maintain high standards within an aviation profession how can it go against you ?
If your original intentions when starting out on the instructor path were genuine and you just need a break from it, fair enough take one but you should then at some stage be able to return to it and continue professionally.
Your original post does however seem to suggest that you see it merely as a way of furthering YOUR career in which case I side with cessnababe.
Don't forget you were a student once. What did you expect from your instructors, professionalism or did you only want to learn to fly just well enough to further your career ?
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The more hours you have and the more local you are will get you the job if you are still current. If you have comercial instructing experience then you will have an advantage over the rest. Like most things the more the better.
Last edited by FlyingFowl; 6th Oct 2002 at 18:42.
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Often when "tired of instructing" comes up for discussion some non-instructor states that you should "get out". I like many did SEP PPL training for too long but as the market stands there is no where to move to. Would people say to a turbine pilot who wants to move to jet, stop flying until a jet job appears of course not.
When I started flying I wanted to instruct but after a while the hours and pay get to you. I would have stayed instructing if conditions where better but it can get down even the most enthusiastic person. Aviation is cyclic and the reality is only a small percentage of the instructors are there through choice.
Cessnababe- You will get your chance when markets pick up but I bet after one winter of 10 hours flying per month at £12.50 but still being at work 24 days including sat+sun you will be applying to the airlines.
When I started flying I wanted to instruct but after a while the hours and pay get to you. I would have stayed instructing if conditions where better but it can get down even the most enthusiastic person. Aviation is cyclic and the reality is only a small percentage of the instructors are there through choice.
Cessnababe- You will get your chance when markets pick up but I bet after one winter of 10 hours flying per month at £12.50 but still being at work 24 days including sat+sun you will be applying to the airlines.
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For your info, I have been instructing for ten years and have 4000 hours instructing. I am actually an FIC instructor , because to me the job of teaching is a very responsible and important one, far more responsible than being a coach driver in a big jet. If I teach one guy to be an instructor, I am influencing a whole generation of pilots.
I used to work in the City and could have earned megabucks, but to me the joy in seeing a guy getting his first paid flying job is so much more reward. I also still enjoy the thrill of the first solo. As GA pilots we are very very privileged. We enjoy the most amazing views and escape the mundane. My life was changed by learning to fly and I believe that I can change other people's lives. That is what being an instructor is about. If you get cynical and stop enjoying the job, then do something else and leave the instructing job to someone with enthusiasm. I have not lost my enthusiasm after ten years, if anything it is greater.....
I used to work in the City and could have earned megabucks, but to me the joy in seeing a guy getting his first paid flying job is so much more reward. I also still enjoy the thrill of the first solo. As GA pilots we are very very privileged. We enjoy the most amazing views and escape the mundane. My life was changed by learning to fly and I believe that I can change other people's lives. That is what being an instructor is about. If you get cynical and stop enjoying the job, then do something else and leave the instructing job to someone with enthusiasm. I have not lost my enthusiasm after ten years, if anything it is greater.....
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Well..It seems like the topic got a little derailed here (i think)
From what DeltaT posted originally it seemed that he were wondering if high hours would hurt him in the interview prosess..? Am I right in this assumption?
Ive sometimes wondered if I came into a airline interview with 2000 as an instructor the board would wonder if I were unable to get any other jobs.
Also, Ive heard from ppl that has spoken to UK airlines that they rather have low hour pilots so they can mold them into what they want in a company pilot rather than having a high hour pilot with loads of bad habits.
That being said, at over 1000 hours of instructing I still enjoy it.
It seems to be an automatic "GET OUT" attitude when someone is asking questions about "should I continue or not?".
Thats not necessarily a bad thing, information from collegues that has been in the same situation in the past can only be gained thru questions.
From what DeltaT posted originally it seemed that he were wondering if high hours would hurt him in the interview prosess..? Am I right in this assumption?
Ive sometimes wondered if I came into a airline interview with 2000 as an instructor the board would wonder if I were unable to get any other jobs.
Also, Ive heard from ppl that has spoken to UK airlines that they rather have low hour pilots so they can mold them into what they want in a company pilot rather than having a high hour pilot with loads of bad habits.
That being said, at over 1000 hours of instructing I still enjoy it.
It seems to be an automatic "GET OUT" attitude when someone is asking questions about "should I continue or not?".
Thats not necessarily a bad thing, information from collegues that has been in the same situation in the past can only be gained thru questions.
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hdaae,
I think you are spot on with your assumption! Personally I think some of the replies have been a little unreasonable. In my humble opinion DeltaT raised a valid point, one which I have thought about myself. I do not think it was fair to assume he is/was not a conscientious instructor! A nerve was obviously touched!!
I think you are spot on with your assumption! Personally I think some of the replies have been a little unreasonable. In my humble opinion DeltaT raised a valid point, one which I have thought about myself. I do not think it was fair to assume he is/was not a conscientious instructor! A nerve was obviously touched!!
Its a JOB not a ruddy VOCATION.
You don't have to love being a flying instructor to be reasonable at it. You don't have to be a career instructor before you can give a cracking Medium Level Turns briefing.
Personally I celebrated every new 100hrs, every new logbook entry that would move me a little closer each day to an airline. Every other PPL instructor I ever worked with had the same attitude.
I'm sorry but £8,500 a year is not enough to maintain the enthusiasm for the job after a while. The risk, the effort and the repetition are out of all proportion to the reward.
Things are different just a little further up the food chain I found. I really enjoyed working in Jerez with decent pay, decent lifestyle and decent students. It got me all fired up about instructing again. But that too fades.
Even now, flying a nice jet from a nice airport for a nice airline on a nice wage - I sometimes dread going to work tomorrow. Thats life and its not shameful to admit you are an instructor to:
a) Take money off students and spend it, and
b) Become an airline pilot.
Driving instructors charge £17.50 an hour. They work social hours, in comfort, with little risk, are their own bosses and can work just about anywhere. It cost them no more than £2,000 to become qualified and they are unhindered by the CAA and their army of doctors. FI's earning £8 an hour "if its nice and if anyone turns up" is frankly insulting in contrast.
----------------------
And now back to the thread topic:
Yes there is a risk after a while that you begin to look like a career instructor. Your CV begs the question "Why hasn't this guy been picked up by an airline yet?" The risk being that each interviewer doesn't want to be the one to hire someone who has been passed over by all the other airlines.
Its rubbish and I am not even going to try to justify it.
You should be safe enough as long as you have an interview line that acknowledges your high instructing time and offers a plausible reason why NOW you feel you want to move on and actually this is the first airline interview you have attended (honest).
If you are not happy working at the moment then perhaps you should call one of the bigger FTO's and go work for them. Sometimes a change is as good as a rest and it did the trick for me.
Otherwise grit your teeth, do a workmanlike job and focus clearly on the endgame - that Boeing tech log waiting for your signature someday. If you are anything like me then you will eventually look back on your instructing years with the rose tinted spectacules firmly in place.
Good luck,
WWW
You don't have to love being a flying instructor to be reasonable at it. You don't have to be a career instructor before you can give a cracking Medium Level Turns briefing.
Personally I celebrated every new 100hrs, every new logbook entry that would move me a little closer each day to an airline. Every other PPL instructor I ever worked with had the same attitude.
I'm sorry but £8,500 a year is not enough to maintain the enthusiasm for the job after a while. The risk, the effort and the repetition are out of all proportion to the reward.
Things are different just a little further up the food chain I found. I really enjoyed working in Jerez with decent pay, decent lifestyle and decent students. It got me all fired up about instructing again. But that too fades.
Even now, flying a nice jet from a nice airport for a nice airline on a nice wage - I sometimes dread going to work tomorrow. Thats life and its not shameful to admit you are an instructor to:
a) Take money off students and spend it, and
b) Become an airline pilot.
Driving instructors charge £17.50 an hour. They work social hours, in comfort, with little risk, are their own bosses and can work just about anywhere. It cost them no more than £2,000 to become qualified and they are unhindered by the CAA and their army of doctors. FI's earning £8 an hour "if its nice and if anyone turns up" is frankly insulting in contrast.
----------------------
And now back to the thread topic:
Yes there is a risk after a while that you begin to look like a career instructor. Your CV begs the question "Why hasn't this guy been picked up by an airline yet?" The risk being that each interviewer doesn't want to be the one to hire someone who has been passed over by all the other airlines.
Its rubbish and I am not even going to try to justify it.
You should be safe enough as long as you have an interview line that acknowledges your high instructing time and offers a plausible reason why NOW you feel you want to move on and actually this is the first airline interview you have attended (honest).
If you are not happy working at the moment then perhaps you should call one of the bigger FTO's and go work for them. Sometimes a change is as good as a rest and it did the trick for me.
Otherwise grit your teeth, do a workmanlike job and focus clearly on the endgame - that Boeing tech log waiting for your signature someday. If you are anything like me then you will eventually look back on your instructing years with the rose tinted spectacules firmly in place.
Good luck,
WWW
Just in case there are any student pilots reading this I would like to point out that the start of WWWs last post is a personal opinion.
I have held a flying instructors rating for seventeen years. Like many I now only instruct when the flight time limitations scheme allows.
However, I quit full time instructing after seven years not because I didn't enjoy it, or because I wanted to be an airline pilot, but simply because I had a wife and kids to support.
Since then I been a bush pilot, flown single and multi crew corporate props and jets, and eventually worked my way up to be an airline training captain.
Hopefully, all these things have added to my knowledge of aviation and allowed me to offer more to my ppl students on the rare times that I return to the flying club and get to instruct. And I find the satisfaction of teaching to be as great as it was when I first climbed into the right hand seat of a Cessna 150 with my first ever student.
Many of the people who were instructing full time when I started are still doing so - and if you are learning to fly are worth seeking out.
For many people teaching in the air is a vocation - not simply a job.
I have held a flying instructors rating for seventeen years. Like many I now only instruct when the flight time limitations scheme allows.
However, I quit full time instructing after seven years not because I didn't enjoy it, or because I wanted to be an airline pilot, but simply because I had a wife and kids to support.
Since then I been a bush pilot, flown single and multi crew corporate props and jets, and eventually worked my way up to be an airline training captain.
Hopefully, all these things have added to my knowledge of aviation and allowed me to offer more to my ppl students on the rare times that I return to the flying club and get to instruct. And I find the satisfaction of teaching to be as great as it was when I first climbed into the right hand seat of a Cessna 150 with my first ever student.
Many of the people who were instructing full time when I started are still doing so - and if you are learning to fly are worth seeking out.
For many people teaching in the air is a vocation - not simply a job.
Yes its a personal opinion. Nobody has anything else here.
If instructing is a vocation for you then it is my opinon that you should charge for your services so as not to dissadvantage the majority of FI's out there for whom it is a job. Or instruct in something like the Air Cadets on a proper voluntary basis.
That said the profession is immeasurably improved by the experienced types who continue, or return to, instructing once they have moved onto other things.
Cheers
WWW
If instructing is a vocation for you then it is my opinon that you should charge for your services so as not to dissadvantage the majority of FI's out there for whom it is a job. Or instruct in something like the Air Cadets on a proper voluntary basis.
That said the profession is immeasurably improved by the experienced types who continue, or return to, instructing once they have moved onto other things.
Cheers
WWW
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Instructing is not just a vocation, it is a hugely responsible job, since we have the safety and care of our students in our hands.
It is desperately sad that the employers do not recognise this and reward it commensurately with commercial flying. An example of this is that aerial photography work or pleasure flying is paid at a higher rate than instruction, a fact that seems bizarre given the qualifications required for instructing. However, after ten years of instructing I still think it is the most rewarding job I have ever done, even though I could have earned ten times as much in the City.
If you are any good at instrucitng then you owe it to the Profession to stick it and carry on.Perhaps one day we will succeed in getting the true recognition that we deserve.
It is desperately sad that the employers do not recognise this and reward it commensurately with commercial flying. An example of this is that aerial photography work or pleasure flying is paid at a higher rate than instruction, a fact that seems bizarre given the qualifications required for instructing. However, after ten years of instructing I still think it is the most rewarding job I have ever done, even though I could have earned ten times as much in the City.
If you are any good at instrucitng then you owe it to the Profession to stick it and carry on.Perhaps one day we will succeed in getting the true recognition that we deserve.