Shafting of Instructors
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
From: Oakland-California
I might be reading this post completely wrong, but you seem to imply that I will give instruction of lesser quality since I work at a school with cheap hour rates?
Thats a matter of work etics and selfrespect. I wont give a student a worse product just because I get only $10 an hour.
Implying that is on the verge of being insulting.
Now...i might agree that with a better pay you might get the instructors that have worked there for a while to actually stay beyond the usual 1000 hour totaltime and 200 multi.
But, as I said, when I got my ratings Comair were a cheap alternative, but a REALLY good alternative. It were QUICK and Ive seen more expensive alternatives give lesser value by a mile.
Comair has upped their prices so they no longer fall into the cheap alternative, but thats hardly the point.
But making it an rule that cheap rates means poor quality is way too simple.
Thats a matter of work etics and selfrespect. I wont give a student a worse product just because I get only $10 an hour.
Implying that is on the verge of being insulting.
Now...i might agree that with a better pay you might get the instructors that have worked there for a while to actually stay beyond the usual 1000 hour totaltime and 200 multi.
But, as I said, when I got my ratings Comair were a cheap alternative, but a REALLY good alternative. It were QUICK and Ive seen more expensive alternatives give lesser value by a mile.
Comair has upped their prices so they no longer fall into the cheap alternative, but thats hardly the point.
But making it an rule that cheap rates means poor quality is way too simple.
Moderator
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,137
Likes: 38
From: Australia
Fact: Aeroplanes cost x per hour to operate
Fact: There is no such thing as cheap flying, and lower hourly rates are often made up for by all sorts of hidden costs.
Fact: Many operators save costs by ripping off their staff. Not only in the rates they are paid, but other entitlements such as superannuation.
When the wannabes are shopping around, they always ask what the hourly rates are, and as curtissjenny has rightly said there is more to it than the hourly rate. There are things they don't see initially, the quality of aircraft, maintenance, service, infrastructure etc. It simply isn't possible to run a flying school efficiently and safely if you are operating below cost.
hdaae, I believe the majority of instructors give their very best to their students. But there is no doubt that those who feel they are not being treated well by their employer may be tempted to have a good bitch about the boss with their colleagues, and this will affect the quality of their work.
Fact: There is no such thing as cheap flying, and lower hourly rates are often made up for by all sorts of hidden costs.
Fact: Many operators save costs by ripping off their staff. Not only in the rates they are paid, but other entitlements such as superannuation.
When the wannabes are shopping around, they always ask what the hourly rates are, and as curtissjenny has rightly said there is more to it than the hourly rate. There are things they don't see initially, the quality of aircraft, maintenance, service, infrastructure etc. It simply isn't possible to run a flying school efficiently and safely if you are operating below cost.
hdaae, I believe the majority of instructors give their very best to their students. But there is no doubt that those who feel they are not being treated well by their employer may be tempted to have a good bitch about the boss with their colleagues, and this will affect the quality of their work.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
From: Oakland-California
Agreed!
Ive been treated soso sometimes, and might hold a grudge towards the boss about it, but when a student walks in the door with his hardearned cash in his hand, I wouldnt be able to sleep comfortably if I got back at him because I were sore at my boss.
But when it comes to the equipment, aircraft availability etc I agree that prices can have an impact.
But remember low prices make wannabes fly there, and if you can build a good volume of low price customers the cashflow will be fairly good at the end of the day.
THAT being said, I wouldnt mind getting $30 an hour......
Ive been treated soso sometimes, and might hold a grudge towards the boss about it, but when a student walks in the door with his hardearned cash in his hand, I wouldnt be able to sleep comfortably if I got back at him because I were sore at my boss.
But when it comes to the equipment, aircraft availability etc I agree that prices can have an impact.
But remember low prices make wannabes fly there, and if you can build a good volume of low price customers the cashflow will be fairly good at the end of the day.
THAT being said, I wouldnt mind getting $30 an hour......
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
From: uk
There is another side to this. A certain very large chain of flight schools in the UK charges buckets loads of cash and then (in some cases) treats its students as if they are on a production line. I've seen one of their instructors take students out to fly in obviously unsuitable conditions so that the "instructor" could get the hours. It's not always the case that the higher the price the better the product. You may just be paying for some absentee shareholder to make mega bucks.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
From: sleaford
They are out there....
Sorry, didn't I say? Come and fly at sunny *no advertising thanks, CFI*
PS Okay so I am doing a bit of painting at the moment round the place but I only have to work Monday to Friday. That leaves me the weekend to mess around in someone else's Stampe and Firefly.......
Ho hum, back to the night flying.
PS Okay so I am doing a bit of painting at the moment round the place but I only have to work Monday to Friday. That leaves me the weekend to mess around in someone else's Stampe and Firefly.......
Ho hum, back to the night flying.
Last edited by Charlie Foxtrot India; 9th November 2002 at 13:45.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
From: uk
Has anyone noticed how many hits this thread has had ??? I wonder if it's beaten any records. It's strange, though, how only 45 have contributed. Do all you other people have a view ? Let's hear it.
ps I am so-o-o-o jealous of neils and want to murder him so I can get his job.
ps I am so-o-o-o jealous of neils and want to murder him so I can get his job.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,414
Likes: 2
From: Europe
Essouira since you ask.................
From another thread in this forum it transpires that there are a number of different categories of instructors. The vast minority of these are the instructors for life and a living. The majority uses it as a stepping stone to the airlines closely followed by those who do it just for fun.
Therein lies the answer to the question.
Interesting to see that Aces Low feels that the instructors subsidise the flying of the students..............!
Can we assume that he/she will have addressed this situation by paying extra when enjoying his/her training. For that matter have any of you that moan about instructor pay slipped your tutor an extra tenner in your days?
I think it is a more widespread belief that students actually subsidise the flying career of the instructor.
Instead of moaning about bad pay and bad treatment you could obviously consider getting yourself a proper job until you have saved the 30-50k for the necessary training.
I can tell you now, the view from your office is a lot better!
FD
From another thread in this forum it transpires that there are a number of different categories of instructors. The vast minority of these are the instructors for life and a living. The majority uses it as a stepping stone to the airlines closely followed by those who do it just for fun.
Therein lies the answer to the question.
Interesting to see that Aces Low feels that the instructors subsidise the flying of the students..............!
Can we assume that he/she will have addressed this situation by paying extra when enjoying his/her training. For that matter have any of you that moan about instructor pay slipped your tutor an extra tenner in your days?
I think it is a more widespread belief that students actually subsidise the flying career of the instructor.
Instead of moaning about bad pay and bad treatment you could obviously consider getting yourself a proper job until you have saved the 30-50k for the necessary training.
I can tell you now, the view from your office is a lot better!
FD
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
From: UK
I just came back to this thread to see how things were moving.
I am STILL waiting for my 'situation' to be solved, I just wondered how SUNNYSIDEUP is getting on with 'his' endeavours?
You see fellow Ppruners, I am STILL being shafted! Regarding the FLYING SCHOOL OWNER who still owes me a LOT of money, he is ALL TALK and NO ACTION!
I have previously mentioned the School by name but this was quickly removed by the moderators.
Well, the problem is that this particular school have shafted at least two instructors previously and who knows how many more in the future.
Yes, this is a personal grievance, but next time it could involve you!
Does anyone have any useful suggestions?
JWF
I am STILL waiting for my 'situation' to be solved, I just wondered how SUNNYSIDEUP is getting on with 'his' endeavours?
You see fellow Ppruners, I am STILL being shafted! Regarding the FLYING SCHOOL OWNER who still owes me a LOT of money, he is ALL TALK and NO ACTION!
I have previously mentioned the School by name but this was quickly removed by the moderators.
Well, the problem is that this particular school have shafted at least two instructors previously and who knows how many more in the future.
Yes, this is a personal grievance, but next time it could involve you!
Does anyone have any useful suggestions?
JWF
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,414
Likes: 2
From: Europe
Hi JWF
I think that if you are convinced that your claim is justified and if the people you are dealing with are not sticking to a promise made to you, one could adopt a pragmatic approach.
You state that they are all promises and no action but have you sought legal advice. Have the organisation that you are talking about acknowledged your claim?
I am not a legal eagle so find someone that is and ask for advice. If you dont want or have the money for this go and talk to the Citizen's Advice Bureau.
One could fire a shot across the bow and state that if this matter is not resolved within say 2 weeks you will start legal action and that you will not only seek financial redress of initial claim but also any costs arising from the pursuit of your claim.
However do bear in mind that the aviation world is a pretty small one and bad news travels fast and reputations are easily damaged.
You are, it seems, disappointed that the moderaters removed the name of the establishment that you are currently embroilled with. However as bulletin board providers they have a duty of care towards those mentioned on it.
Furthermore you would not want to have to pay any of the hard earned cash as compensation for libel if the organisation was to take you on for such a claim.
FD
I think that if you are convinced that your claim is justified and if the people you are dealing with are not sticking to a promise made to you, one could adopt a pragmatic approach.
You state that they are all promises and no action but have you sought legal advice. Have the organisation that you are talking about acknowledged your claim?
I am not a legal eagle so find someone that is and ask for advice. If you dont want or have the money for this go and talk to the Citizen's Advice Bureau.
One could fire a shot across the bow and state that if this matter is not resolved within say 2 weeks you will start legal action and that you will not only seek financial redress of initial claim but also any costs arising from the pursuit of your claim.
However do bear in mind that the aviation world is a pretty small one and bad news travels fast and reputations are easily damaged.
You are, it seems, disappointed that the moderaters removed the name of the establishment that you are currently embroilled with. However as bulletin board providers they have a duty of care towards those mentioned on it.
Furthermore you would not want to have to pay any of the hard earned cash as compensation for libel if the organisation was to take you on for such a claim.
FD
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
From: UK
FD.................thank you for the reply.
I did take legal action against the school concerned and indeed the courts issued a 'Couny Court Judgement' against the school.
The problem is (was) that the owners of the school resigned as directors and sold the business. In the mean time they set up again operating under the same name at the same premises however under the wing of a different 'parent' company. This all makes it very difficult to legally recover monies owing.
I do not wish to spend 'good money after bad' however I will make it my duty to generally embarrass the people concerned and become a thorn in their side.
Unless of course they pay up (AS PROMISED) very soon.
For your interest the person concerned has already contributed to this particular thread.
It's a 'Sunny' world
JWF
I did take legal action against the school concerned and indeed the courts issued a 'Couny Court Judgement' against the school.
The problem is (was) that the owners of the school resigned as directors and sold the business. In the mean time they set up again operating under the same name at the same premises however under the wing of a different 'parent' company. This all makes it very difficult to legally recover monies owing.
I do not wish to spend 'good money after bad' however I will make it my duty to generally embarrass the people concerned and become a thorn in their side.
Unless of course they pay up (AS PROMISED) very soon.
For your interest the person concerned has already contributed to this particular thread.
It's a 'Sunny' world
JWF
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 36
Likes: 1
From: W Mids
I confess to only skimming through this thread, but unfortunately in general it would appear that your desire to fly first and foremost, seems to be the root cause of your problems.
If the job you were going to choose was more mundane than the world of aviation, then I guess you would have been more critical of pay and conditions etc. at the outset.
The 'must fly' in the heart overules the logic of the head. Anyone entering this industry cannot help but see the problems that have existed in the industry for some considerable time. It is not a new problem. However, for many, being prepared to walk away from the excitment of flying seems to be too much for the heart to bear and therefore the logic of the head is over-ruled. Understand....you have now helped to propagate the problem.
If the difficulties of pay / conditions were resolved to your satisfation then I think a lot of us may never have ever afforded to learn to fly in the first place and there wouldn't be many students following eagerly (but also with rose tinted glasses) in your footsteps now. No students - no income - no experience - NO FLY!
It is inevitable that there will be organisations that are insufficiently funded and / or badly run with the consequence these are not good places to work, in which case the choice to stay or go is yours. But for those who supposedly entered the industry with eyes open (well you should have done, with what you were about to spend), whether to remain an instructor or to upgrade to the big toys, I think you have to accept that you spent your cash knowing what to expect and if you keep grumbling, you gonna become sad, bitter and twisted. And you are still part of the problem.
I am sure this post may upset one or two. It is not my intention, but it has to be said, that whingeing does not help. If you come to the conclusion you have made a bad career choice (and an awful financial investment), decide to either GO and get a job that has better pay and conditions but most likely without an avionics layout in front of you, or STAY in the industry and make the best of a bad job with a smile on your face.
Sincere wishes of good fortune to you either way.
If the job you were going to choose was more mundane than the world of aviation, then I guess you would have been more critical of pay and conditions etc. at the outset.
The 'must fly' in the heart overules the logic of the head. Anyone entering this industry cannot help but see the problems that have existed in the industry for some considerable time. It is not a new problem. However, for many, being prepared to walk away from the excitment of flying seems to be too much for the heart to bear and therefore the logic of the head is over-ruled. Understand....you have now helped to propagate the problem.
If the difficulties of pay / conditions were resolved to your satisfation then I think a lot of us may never have ever afforded to learn to fly in the first place and there wouldn't be many students following eagerly (but also with rose tinted glasses) in your footsteps now. No students - no income - no experience - NO FLY!
It is inevitable that there will be organisations that are insufficiently funded and / or badly run with the consequence these are not good places to work, in which case the choice to stay or go is yours. But for those who supposedly entered the industry with eyes open (well you should have done, with what you were about to spend), whether to remain an instructor or to upgrade to the big toys, I think you have to accept that you spent your cash knowing what to expect and if you keep grumbling, you gonna become sad, bitter and twisted. And you are still part of the problem.
I am sure this post may upset one or two. It is not my intention, but it has to be said, that whingeing does not help. If you come to the conclusion you have made a bad career choice (and an awful financial investment), decide to either GO and get a job that has better pay and conditions but most likely without an avionics layout in front of you, or STAY in the industry and make the best of a bad job with a smile on your face.
Sincere wishes of good fortune to you either way.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,414
Likes: 2
From: Europe
Hi JWF
Sorry to see that the much hailed English legal system has not managed to get you the money to which you are entitled according to the courts.
I find it difficult to understand how people can try to get away with this when it is their legal and moral obligation to settle an issue like this.
As I stated in a previous post the aviation world is a very small one and I hope that you will have financial satisfaction soon so that you dont have to resort to 'naming and shaming' or may be it should be positively labelled and called warning the unaware
I am a newcomer to PPRuNe so have no clue who you are referring to but assume that 'old hands' may have seen the posting you refer to before it got moderated.
Must be embarrassing for the party involved especially if they contribute to this forum.
If what you state is true (and have no reason to disbelieve you) So that if you mention who it is should be no problem (however you may want to check that with a legal eagle) from a libel point of view.
FWIW and MHO of course.
FD
Sorry to see that the much hailed English legal system has not managed to get you the money to which you are entitled according to the courts.
I find it difficult to understand how people can try to get away with this when it is their legal and moral obligation to settle an issue like this.
As I stated in a previous post the aviation world is a very small one and I hope that you will have financial satisfaction soon so that you dont have to resort to 'naming and shaming' or may be it should be positively labelled and called warning the unaware
I am a newcomer to PPRuNe so have no clue who you are referring to but assume that 'old hands' may have seen the posting you refer to before it got moderated.
Must be embarrassing for the party involved especially if they contribute to this forum.
If what you state is true (and have no reason to disbelieve you) So that if you mention who it is should be no problem (however you may want to check that with a legal eagle) from a libel point of view.
FWIW and MHO of course.
FD
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
From: UK
Hi F.D.
'naming and shaming' or may be it should be positively labelled and called warning the unaware
I like that, good idea
I had also thought of listing the CCJ reference no, oh and the Industrial Tribunal ref no's too!
Hmm, it sounds SOOOO tempting
Now how do you like your eggs? Sunnysideup perhaps
JWF
'naming and shaming' or may be it should be positively labelled and called warning the unaware
I like that, good idea
I had also thought of listing the CCJ reference no, oh and the Industrial Tribunal ref no's too!
Hmm, it sounds SOOOO tempting
Now how do you like your eggs? Sunnysideup perhaps
JWF
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
From: UK
J W F
I've been overseas for five weeks without internet access so I've only just caught up on threads that I have an interest in. Seems that your situation is still very much alive and kicking.
The instructor I had a problem with gave a very similar story of his version of events to those that would listen. I had different view of course.
Whilst I was away, my guy and another instructor decided that they would not relay a probelm to me and thought a better proposition would be to steal student record cards, tell everyone the club had gone bankrupt, write to all the students suggesting they go fly with him at a school in close competition to mine and generally cause a lot of grief.
With the above, I thought at the time that the instructors concerned where entitled to nothing, but I stopped my Directors short of legal action believing that nothing would come of it other than more problems for everybody. It also seemed pointless to go down a road that would no doubt blight the reputation of the instructors and me in this small community that is GA. Anger and revenge never did anyone any good in the long term.
This was my version of events of course. I still strongly believe that this was the case and that I was well and trully shafted, and got very upset and angry at the whole scenario, as you could imagine.
I guess the unbiased truth is somewhere in the middle.
In retrospect, I prefer to be philosophical about it all, blaming the behavior of this otherwise professional and all round nice bloke on human nature when things are bad. Everyone needs someone to blame in a crisis and I liken it to a messy, acromonious divorce. People say and do things they would otherwise never get involved in normally.
The instructor, having failed to put the club out of business all together, decided a CCJ would be worth a shot. Although I also took the Club away from a parent company that I had no control over, that company is still very much alive as far as I know and I don't know if the instructor has continued with his legal action against them. Having lost money myself in the thing, I wish him good luck.
Now with the Club standing on its own two feet, I thought that I still had a moral obligation to ensure that no-one was shafted and settle a couple of outstanding disputes from a time when, after all, I was the Operations Manager.
The instuctor and I did manage to have a civil conversation some months later and both put our hands up that we were as bad as each other and agreed to call it a draw. Lifes to short. We agreed that some money was owed morally and I said I would pay it out of my own pocket as long as we could put it behind us and get on with life, at least now managing to be civil to each other if ever our paths crossed. I gave him some money at that point with the undestanding that more would be forthcoming when I had it, although it may take some time. We are just as well apid as instructors!!. All happy, I thought. Of course, if he finds himself a little short he may well decide to kick up a fuss publically without the courtesy of getting in touch with me.
So you see there are two sides to every story. And the stories get worse as time goes on if direct communication is not established.
Maybe, J W F, you find yourself in a similar postion. Maybe you feel agrieved still because, in you own mind, you only believe your version of events and there is another side to your story. I'm certain from your postings that you are still owed something so why don't you make direct contact rather than going down a road that leads to a lot of twisted stories and moderator censorship before the truth is finally established??
Personally, I will always take a telephone call or a visit from the instructor that I have outstanding issues with. Its the only proper and professional way to deal with things.
I wish you good luck, JWF, in solving your dispute shortly without going down a road that you have recenly started. Just the wrong way of dealing with it IMHO. If I can help in any way by giving you an insight into what its like on the other side of your fence, you can always ask.
After all, naming and shaming works both ways.
I've been overseas for five weeks without internet access so I've only just caught up on threads that I have an interest in. Seems that your situation is still very much alive and kicking.
The instructor I had a problem with gave a very similar story of his version of events to those that would listen. I had different view of course.
Whilst I was away, my guy and another instructor decided that they would not relay a probelm to me and thought a better proposition would be to steal student record cards, tell everyone the club had gone bankrupt, write to all the students suggesting they go fly with him at a school in close competition to mine and generally cause a lot of grief.
With the above, I thought at the time that the instructors concerned where entitled to nothing, but I stopped my Directors short of legal action believing that nothing would come of it other than more problems for everybody. It also seemed pointless to go down a road that would no doubt blight the reputation of the instructors and me in this small community that is GA. Anger and revenge never did anyone any good in the long term.
This was my version of events of course. I still strongly believe that this was the case and that I was well and trully shafted, and got very upset and angry at the whole scenario, as you could imagine.
I guess the unbiased truth is somewhere in the middle.
In retrospect, I prefer to be philosophical about it all, blaming the behavior of this otherwise professional and all round nice bloke on human nature when things are bad. Everyone needs someone to blame in a crisis and I liken it to a messy, acromonious divorce. People say and do things they would otherwise never get involved in normally.
The instructor, having failed to put the club out of business all together, decided a CCJ would be worth a shot. Although I also took the Club away from a parent company that I had no control over, that company is still very much alive as far as I know and I don't know if the instructor has continued with his legal action against them. Having lost money myself in the thing, I wish him good luck.
Now with the Club standing on its own two feet, I thought that I still had a moral obligation to ensure that no-one was shafted and settle a couple of outstanding disputes from a time when, after all, I was the Operations Manager.
The instuctor and I did manage to have a civil conversation some months later and both put our hands up that we were as bad as each other and agreed to call it a draw. Lifes to short. We agreed that some money was owed morally and I said I would pay it out of my own pocket as long as we could put it behind us and get on with life, at least now managing to be civil to each other if ever our paths crossed. I gave him some money at that point with the undestanding that more would be forthcoming when I had it, although it may take some time. We are just as well apid as instructors!!. All happy, I thought. Of course, if he finds himself a little short he may well decide to kick up a fuss publically without the courtesy of getting in touch with me.
So you see there are two sides to every story. And the stories get worse as time goes on if direct communication is not established.
Maybe, J W F, you find yourself in a similar postion. Maybe you feel agrieved still because, in you own mind, you only believe your version of events and there is another side to your story. I'm certain from your postings that you are still owed something so why don't you make direct contact rather than going down a road that leads to a lot of twisted stories and moderator censorship before the truth is finally established??
Personally, I will always take a telephone call or a visit from the instructor that I have outstanding issues with. Its the only proper and professional way to deal with things.
I wish you good luck, JWF, in solving your dispute shortly without going down a road that you have recenly started. Just the wrong way of dealing with it IMHO. If I can help in any way by giving you an insight into what its like on the other side of your fence, you can always ask.
After all, naming and shaming works both ways.
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
From: UK
Sunnysideup.......
Interesting views, however my problem is that the person I have my grievence with ignores my letters.....what do I do?
He has agreed that he owes me £**** and despite promising to pay (since May by the way!) I have not received a bean!
You see, despite hearsay and gossip, I still remain unpaid for the month of December last year.
As for naming and shaming working both ways you have a point, I will be the first to offer my name to third parties should the need arise, I have nothing to hide. It would however have a greater and very negative effect on the school in question, so for the time being I have elected not to 'come out'. I am quietly hoping that the other party in my case will pay me what I am owed and then the dust can settle once and for all. On the other hand.........................?
Cheers
JWF
Interesting views, however my problem is that the person I have my grievence with ignores my letters.....what do I do?
He has agreed that he owes me £**** and despite promising to pay (since May by the way!) I have not received a bean!
You see, despite hearsay and gossip, I still remain unpaid for the month of December last year.
As for naming and shaming working both ways you have a point, I will be the first to offer my name to third parties should the need arise, I have nothing to hide. It would however have a greater and very negative effect on the school in question, so for the time being I have elected not to 'come out'. I am quietly hoping that the other party in my case will pay me what I am owed and then the dust can settle once and for all. On the other hand.........................?
Cheers
JWF
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
From: UK
C-I-M.....
I notice from your profile that you are a ppl student (nothing wrong with that) however this is a forum for instructors . No one is forcing you read this topic so with respect I do not see what it has to do with you
The purpose of pprune is for interested parties to air thoughts, opinions and comments about aviation (originally 'professional aviation'). Whilst my own topic on this thread is indeed personal I have made comment for two reasons...1/ to see if I can induce the 'other party' into paying me (I do know he reads Pprune) and 2/ to draw attention to other instructors of the risks involved in dealing with unscrupulous and untrustworthy flying clubs and their owners.
Remember this thread is titled 'Shafting of Instructors'
JWF
I notice from your profile that you are a ppl student (nothing wrong with that) however this is a forum for instructors
. No one is forcing you read this topic so with respect I do not see what it has to do with you The purpose of pprune is for interested parties to air thoughts, opinions and comments about aviation (originally 'professional aviation'). Whilst my own topic on this thread is indeed personal I have made comment for two reasons...1/ to see if I can induce the 'other party' into paying me (I do know he reads Pprune) and 2/ to draw attention to other instructors of the risks involved in dealing with unscrupulous and untrustworthy flying clubs and their owners.
Remember this thread is titled 'Shafting of Instructors'
JWF
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
From: UK
I concur.
I've chosen to air my views, careful not to blight the name of someone who I generally respect and like as an instructor and a human being (even if I do a particular issue with his actions in one particular instance), because along with the comments of JWF and others, it shows how "the shafting of instructors" can sometimes have two sides.
Its also a good example of how and why things go wrong. That has to be of interest and use to anyone in who is an Instructor or considering it.
IMHO, the previous postings are exactly the type of thing that this forum is for. No names have been mentioned, no-ones been directly slandered despite obvious strong opinions and beliefs on both sides of the fence.
Personally, I have no problem with the strong opposing views to my own postings if it is in the spirit of good debate and of use to all who read them.
Its certainly led me to to give my own problem more attention and I'll be calling the instructor concerned in the coming week to make sure that its solved without delay to mutual satisfaction in case that situation does all start to get out of hand.
I've chosen to air my views, careful not to blight the name of someone who I generally respect and like as an instructor and a human being (even if I do a particular issue with his actions in one particular instance), because along with the comments of JWF and others, it shows how "the shafting of instructors" can sometimes have two sides.
Its also a good example of how and why things go wrong. That has to be of interest and use to anyone in who is an Instructor or considering it.
IMHO, the previous postings are exactly the type of thing that this forum is for. No names have been mentioned, no-ones been directly slandered despite obvious strong opinions and beliefs on both sides of the fence.
Personally, I have no problem with the strong opposing views to my own postings if it is in the spirit of good debate and of use to all who read them.
Its certainly led me to to give my own problem more attention and I'll be calling the instructor concerned in the coming week to make sure that its solved without delay to mutual satisfaction in case that situation does all start to get out of hand.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
From: Exeter, UK
I actually enjoy instructing! I have got 1800 hours and have done it for about 3 years. I could now quit instructing and do it part time and get a well paid job doing something else and still apply for airlines, i have more total time than any airline usually asks for. What about if i wanted to do it for a career? Should i still be shafted? The reason why no one wants to do it for a carrer is that noone wants to be washing the bosses car for the rest of their life. If clubs/schools treated their instructors with respect they may hang on to them longer and get better quality of instructing from there instructors.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
From: cyyz
Instructing
"I wouldn't let you waste your money, if I could go back 5 years I would have taken a line job and be flying for a carrier by now" Words straight out of the mouth of our CFI.
Yes, I'm not an instructor but I'm adding my two cents, for those who love to teach flying, good for you. Those that whine, quit or call up a union and they'll get a union setup for you in no time. Hoffa(I know) and his teamsters would be more then willing to come up with something for you guys.
The pay at our school is $18/hr and the student pays $40. 45% goes to the instructor, in the real estate market an agent WILL NEVER take home more then 5% of a sale. So you're being paid well enough. If you were flying every day it's 38,000. Not bad when the people at "McDonald's" get paid 6.80 = 15,000 a year. So the student you're "training" will be making half of your bread and butter. so "shhh"
You're the Captain of a Cessna 150 so fractionally speaking the Capt of the Airbus is making less then you. You have ONE passanger, one tiny ship. They command a something larger and thus they deserve more pay. They're getting a dollar a head tops, you 18 per head!
OR lets pay instructors $100/hr, watch how many student's you'll have, how much complaining you'll be doing how you can't pay for parking.
Or just do like sunnysides instructors, steal the students start your own flight school. You'll be making billions(sarcasm). Honsetly if your flight school that is right by your house isnt' good enough, commute to a flight school that's better or make your own, or do a few nose landings and break the planes and put the school out of business if it'll cheer you up.
I had a problem with my flight school, I'd book the plane for 3 hrs and bring it back in an hour and they said "you booked it for 3 hrs and brought it back early, bad" they wanted to charge me. So the next day I picked up the plane flew to the another airport, left the plane there, flew back at night, the plane was gone for almost 10 hours, I was charged for "flight time" two hours, they don't tell me anything about bringing the plane back early. =)
YOU have the power to do anything.
Yes, I'm not an instructor but I'm adding my two cents, for those who love to teach flying, good for you. Those that whine, quit or call up a union and they'll get a union setup for you in no time. Hoffa(I know) and his teamsters would be more then willing to come up with something for you guys.
The pay at our school is $18/hr and the student pays $40. 45% goes to the instructor, in the real estate market an agent WILL NEVER take home more then 5% of a sale. So you're being paid well enough. If you were flying every day it's 38,000. Not bad when the people at "McDonald's" get paid 6.80 = 15,000 a year. So the student you're "training" will be making half of your bread and butter. so "shhh"
You're the Captain of a Cessna 150 so fractionally speaking the Capt of the Airbus is making less then you. You have ONE passanger, one tiny ship. They command a something larger and thus they deserve more pay. They're getting a dollar a head tops, you 18 per head!
OR lets pay instructors $100/hr, watch how many student's you'll have, how much complaining you'll be doing how you can't pay for parking.
Or just do like sunnysides instructors, steal the students start your own flight school. You'll be making billions(sarcasm). Honsetly if your flight school that is right by your house isnt' good enough, commute to a flight school that's better or make your own, or do a few nose landings and break the planes and put the school out of business if it'll cheer you up.
I had a problem with my flight school, I'd book the plane for 3 hrs and bring it back in an hour and they said "you booked it for 3 hrs and brought it back early, bad" they wanted to charge me. So the next day I picked up the plane flew to the another airport, left the plane there, flew back at night, the plane was gone for almost 10 hours, I was charged for "flight time" two hours, they don't tell me anything about bringing the plane back early. =)
YOU have the power to do anything.