Shafting of Instructors
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 70
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From: UK
Its that old market forces thing again. As long as there are club owners who feel that the full extent of their marketing program can only be to be £1 cheaper per hour than the guy down the road then they'll get more business.
Problem is, those that work like this are (dare I put this one forward!) instructors who ended up owning flying clubs and have zero commercial sense!!
If the difference between £99 and £129 per hour (extra £15 for the instructor, extra £15 for the club to pay the bloke who owns it a bit more and allow investment in new kit, aircraft, kettle, roof, shoes etc.) is going to mean no-one can afford to fly anymore then why are the rotary boys getting full diaries at £200 + per hour for a poxy R22????
There are several clubs on the airfield I'm on. And the cheapest is the least busy. Why? Probably (only my guess) they have the oldest aircraft, smallest premises, least well decorated and presented, most like a sausage factory, charge for coffee and because your average punter understands that he gets what he pays for and is willing to pay to enjoy his/her leisure time.
It takes more balls than any instructor I've met to demand a decent wage but the recent talk of an instructors union may help. It also takes more balls than any Club owner I know to be out there on their own £30 more expensive than everyone else.
So when we welcome in the NPPL because its cheaper for the students, or we try and find cheaper maintenance or we all eventually get deisel engines and drop our rates accordingly (some idiots will, trust me!) then we really only shoot ourselves and everyone else in the GA industry in the foot.
If we all got real, no-one would lose students (if they want to fly, they find the money) and self-fly hirers and everyone would get at least a living wage.
Fancy that. Me, a Club owner, looking to pay an instructor £15 more per flying hour!!!!
Gentlemen. We only have ourselves to blame.
Problem is, those that work like this are (dare I put this one forward!) instructors who ended up owning flying clubs and have zero commercial sense!!
If the difference between £99 and £129 per hour (extra £15 for the instructor, extra £15 for the club to pay the bloke who owns it a bit more and allow investment in new kit, aircraft, kettle, roof, shoes etc.) is going to mean no-one can afford to fly anymore then why are the rotary boys getting full diaries at £200 + per hour for a poxy R22????
There are several clubs on the airfield I'm on. And the cheapest is the least busy. Why? Probably (only my guess) they have the oldest aircraft, smallest premises, least well decorated and presented, most like a sausage factory, charge for coffee and because your average punter understands that he gets what he pays for and is willing to pay to enjoy his/her leisure time.
It takes more balls than any instructor I've met to demand a decent wage but the recent talk of an instructors union may help. It also takes more balls than any Club owner I know to be out there on their own £30 more expensive than everyone else.
So when we welcome in the NPPL because its cheaper for the students, or we try and find cheaper maintenance or we all eventually get deisel engines and drop our rates accordingly (some idiots will, trust me!) then we really only shoot ourselves and everyone else in the GA industry in the foot.
If we all got real, no-one would lose students (if they want to fly, they find the money) and self-fly hirers and everyone would get at least a living wage.
Fancy that. Me, a Club owner, looking to pay an instructor £15 more per flying hour!!!!
Gentlemen. We only have ourselves to blame.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 41
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From: Shoreham West Sussex
The reality is that flying instruction in this country is far too cheap. as some of you posters have pointed out people are prepared to pay over £200 for rotary instruction in an R22. If we were to operate new aeroplanes for training, then the punter would be prepared to pay proportionally more. It is all about impressions.
Why do you think people pay to do their PPL with a certain company that has a uniform with the instructors wearing gold bars even though they have minimum hours? It is a fantasy that they are all going to become airline pilots and that company gets away with charging £40 per hour more than most others.
The answer to all of our problems is to put up the price of flying instruction by about £60 per hour so that there is adequate margin to pay the instructors a decent wage and a bit over for the owner to make a profit. What do people pay their golf pro or their tennis pro or their masseur or their therapist? I bet you none of these guys would work for less than £30 per hour,so that is what you should be shooting for. If anyone agrees with me then please let me know.
Why do you think people pay to do their PPL with a certain company that has a uniform with the instructors wearing gold bars even though they have minimum hours? It is a fantasy that they are all going to become airline pilots and that company gets away with charging £40 per hour more than most others.
The answer to all of our problems is to put up the price of flying instruction by about £60 per hour so that there is adequate margin to pay the instructors a decent wage and a bit over for the owner to make a profit. What do people pay their golf pro or their tennis pro or their masseur or their therapist? I bet you none of these guys would work for less than £30 per hour,so that is what you should be shooting for. If anyone agrees with me then please let me know.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 18
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From: Fort Lauderdale, FL.
Wow, you guys in the UK sure have it better then us guys in the U.S. I could only dream of making UKP20000 per year!!! Right now I'm making less then $10000 per year!! And yes, I work for one of the big Florida flight schools (but I'm planning on changing that sometime in the near future).
I didn't intend on becoming a flight instructor when I started flying, but had no choice but to become one (like most other pilots). But after a year of doing it, I've come to enjoy the job and the people I work with and train. And due to the current hiring climate, I'm going to have to work this job for at least another year and a half. So I'm moving to a flight school elsewhere in the country (at least trying to) that treats instructors a little more like human beings and pays more then $10 an hour, and guarentees more flight time. I still have my dignity, just a shame the flight school is going to lose one of it's experienced instructors. But they don't seem to care...as long as they can replace me with a "yes man" that will work for $10 an hour and work only 10 hours a week, they think they're better off!
Yes, I've had a bit to drink and I'm rambling a little incoherently....but I'm still sticking to the spirirt of the thread :-)
I didn't intend on becoming a flight instructor when I started flying, but had no choice but to become one (like most other pilots). But after a year of doing it, I've come to enjoy the job and the people I work with and train. And due to the current hiring climate, I'm going to have to work this job for at least another year and a half. So I'm moving to a flight school elsewhere in the country (at least trying to) that treats instructors a little more like human beings and pays more then $10 an hour, and guarentees more flight time. I still have my dignity, just a shame the flight school is going to lose one of it's experienced instructors. But they don't seem to care...as long as they can replace me with a "yes man" that will work for $10 an hour and work only 10 hours a week, they think they're better off!
Yes, I've had a bit to drink and I'm rambling a little incoherently....but I'm still sticking to the spirirt of the thread :-)
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 194
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From: uk
Well for the first time ever I am starting to change my mind about something pretty fundamental - directly as a result of a pprune thread ! Yes, the other british instructors have made a really good argument for a substantial increase in the cost of ppl training in order that the instructors get paid properly. But where do we go from here ? There must be thousands of instructors who have the view that I've always had ie "rather be an instructor for £15 per hour than a programmer for £50 per hour". Actually I now realise I'd rather be an instructor for £30 per hour - especially when I look at how much it costs me for medicals, flight tests, travel to the airfield etc. However, I'm not sure the problem can be resolved while there are streams of young pilots coming along wanting to fly as much as possible and not caring about the pay because they look on it as an investment for their future airline careers. That's what I think stops instructing being viewed as a career - and therefore stops proper pay scales.
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 90
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From: UK
Fancy that. Me, a Club owner, looking to pay an instructor £15 more per flying hour!!!!
Well said Sunnysideup, very refreshing. What are your views on flying clubs that fail to pay ex instructors of theirs?
JWF
Well said Sunnysideup, very refreshing. What are your views on flying clubs that fail to pay ex instructors of theirs?
JWF
Last edited by juswonnafly; 2nd October 2002 at 10:19.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 70
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From: UK
What are your views on flying clubs that fail to pay ex instructors of theirs?
JWF. Tried to think of a non-liablous, nice way of responding to this but after many uses of the "delete key" could only come up with the fact that, just like in any industry, there are Instructors who are dishonest little !!!!!s and there are Club Owners who are dishonest little !!!!!s.
Then there are good, honest, hard-working, loyal and honourable Instructors and Club Owners who end up falling out big time and accuse each other of being in the category, as well as both making it justifiably very personal and BOTH doing things that with hindsight, neither would have risked, mainly because neither of them have enough money a. to be comfortable b. to be completely honest about whats owed or c. to allow time to sort it out!!!!!!!
This just adds more fuel to the debate and results in more bad feelings and threads such as this
I have a similar problem at the moment which has dragged on a fair while but I will be resolving in the next couple of weeks because I made a personal commitment to do so when I could personally afford to. I did this because we were able to talk sometime after and both put our hands up to being as bad as each other and agree that lifes too short.
It would never happen in the majority of cases if schools charged a reasonable amount and Club Owners and Instructors could make a decent living.
We are all in this because we love the smell of AvGas. Sometimes the fumes cloud our judgement. We all have to eat when we get out of aircraft and go back to grim reality.
As much as it sometimes seems a horrible thought, its money that makes the world (and the propellors) go round and if we all had just enough the industry would not be as rife with Instructors and Club Owners who feel so hard done by each other
JWF. Tried to think of a non-liablous, nice way of responding to this but after many uses of the "delete key" could only come up with the fact that, just like in any industry, there are Instructors who are dishonest little !!!!!s and there are Club Owners who are dishonest little !!!!!s.
Then there are good, honest, hard-working, loyal and honourable Instructors and Club Owners who end up falling out big time and accuse each other of being in the category, as well as both making it justifiably very personal and BOTH doing things that with hindsight, neither would have risked, mainly because neither of them have enough money a. to be comfortable b. to be completely honest about whats owed or c. to allow time to sort it out!!!!!!!
This just adds more fuel to the debate and results in more bad feelings and threads such as this
I have a similar problem at the moment which has dragged on a fair while but I will be resolving in the next couple of weeks because I made a personal commitment to do so when I could personally afford to. I did this because we were able to talk sometime after and both put our hands up to being as bad as each other and agree that lifes too short.
It would never happen in the majority of cases if schools charged a reasonable amount and Club Owners and Instructors could make a decent living.
We are all in this because we love the smell of AvGas. Sometimes the fumes cloud our judgement. We all have to eat when we get out of aircraft and go back to grim reality.
As much as it sometimes seems a horrible thought, its money that makes the world (and the propellors) go round and if we all had just enough the industry would not be as rife with Instructors and Club Owners who feel so hard done by each other
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 265
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From: don't know, I'll ask
The other side of the coin
I'm sure most flying school owners are well meaning decent people who do not set out to shaft their instructors or any other employee. It would be interesting to do a few sums to see exactly what it should cost here in the UK for PPL training (say) in a bog standard 172 or PA28, and pay the instructors a decent wage to boot, say national average earnings around £18,000 a year and perhaps cover their necessary fees like medicals etc.
Assume the school is reasonably well equipped with a rented office and hangar on an airfield somewhere and has 6 to 12 a/c. Assuming these a/c are in reasonable nick that's an investment for someone of thick end of £250,000 in kit. Say 6 or 8 instructors part and full time at £18,000 pa (or pro rata). Usual £1 a litre type fuel costs, maitanance ground staff etc. Then add in a reasonable return on investment and a premium for the risk level being taken by the investor (Venture capitalists work on about 50%IRR), and then a sensible utilisation rate, taking account of tech a/c and weather etc.
Anyone care to give me an hourly flying rate and then speculate as to its obtainability here when just about any instructor can then set up next door with no staff and an a/c they rent of some struggling private owner who cannot really afford it, and under cut prices?
Assume the school is reasonably well equipped with a rented office and hangar on an airfield somewhere and has 6 to 12 a/c. Assuming these a/c are in reasonable nick that's an investment for someone of thick end of £250,000 in kit. Say 6 or 8 instructors part and full time at £18,000 pa (or pro rata). Usual £1 a litre type fuel costs, maitanance ground staff etc. Then add in a reasonable return on investment and a premium for the risk level being taken by the investor (Venture capitalists work on about 50%IRR), and then a sensible utilisation rate, taking account of tech a/c and weather etc.
Anyone care to give me an hourly flying rate and then speculate as to its obtainability here when just about any instructor can then set up next door with no staff and an a/c they rent of some struggling private owner who cannot really afford it, and under cut prices?
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 90
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From: UK
Sunnysideup
Interesting reply. I do hope of course that both you and me are not considered to be in your first description of instructors and club owners
I too have an ongoing matter of a similar nature, perhaps we will both be fortunate to have these matters settled in the very near future. You are right. life is too short.
I have found this industry to be quite 'tight' and what goes round comes round. It would be nice to think that we can solve our respective differences with these third parties and then just get on with what I am sure we both do well.......aviating
Cheers
JWF
Interesting reply. I do hope of course that both you and me are not considered to be in your first description of instructors and club owners
I too have an ongoing matter of a similar nature, perhaps we will both be fortunate to have these matters settled in the very near future. You are right. life is too short.
I have found this industry to be quite 'tight' and what goes round comes round. It would be nice to think that we can solve our respective differences with these third parties and then just get on with what I am sure we both do well.......aviating
Cheers
JWF
Guest
Posts: n/a
All of us knew what we were getting ourselves into so we can't ask for any sympathy now!!
My mum says "S**t or get off the bog".
There is light at the end of the tunnel though so don't despair, just think of all that dough you'll be earning in 10 years time.
My mum says "S**t or get off the bog".
There is light at the end of the tunnel though so don't despair, just think of all that dough you'll be earning in 10 years time.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 194
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From: uk
CAT IIIC - I think you may have missed the point here. We are instructors - that's what we want to be. There is no "think of all the money you'll make in ten years time" - unless things change, many of us can't stay as instructors for another ten years. I, for one, believe that we have a responsible job that should pay enough for us to have a reasonable lifestyle. If I wanted to be rich I wouldn't have chosen to be a flying instructor, that's for sure - but that doesn't mean we can't get a reasonable salary for a professional job. Cessnababe seems to have a much better grip of the reality here.
Guest
Posts: n/a
NO, I dont think I have missed the point. I'm an instructor of three years and what I'm trying to get across is that if you're not happy then do something else. I love being an instructor, just don't love the money but I dont WHINE about it, i just get on. One day I know i'll earn loads.
Yeah, you've all got a fantastic grip on reality. Lets put £60 an hour on top of all PPL training and send another couple of hundred prospective clients over to the States every year. Great idea folks!!!!
Yeah, you've all got a fantastic grip on reality. Lets put £60 an hour on top of all PPL training and send another couple of hundred prospective clients over to the States every year. Great idea folks!!!!
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3
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From: The World
Cat IIIc - Can you be more exact about which job it is thats going to pay you huge great wads of cash? If its airline, presumably you're using instructing as a stepping stone, if you think you going to get rich on instructing, I think you're sadly mistaken
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 132
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From: Newcastle upon Tyne UK
As a part timer who thankfully does not have to rely upon the income and instructs for fun, I have to agree that the instructing industry is responsible for under-valuing itself. The stiff upper lip approach is not conducive to producing the best quality of instruction in my opinion.
Some individuals are natural instructors who would prefer to stay on in instructing and make a career out of it, but find it impossible to maintain a reasonable standard of living by doing so.
What is needed is a proper career structure with suitable rewards based upon assessment and career progression, so that the talented instructors are retained and valued.
Some individuals are natural instructors who would prefer to stay on in instructing and make a career out of it, but find it impossible to maintain a reasonable standard of living by doing so.
What is needed is a proper career structure with suitable rewards based upon assessment and career progression, so that the talented instructors are retained and valued.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 265
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From: don't know, I'll ask
I continue to struggle with this one.
I agree with Martindoc and I'm sure it would make for a much better, more enthused and focused instructors than some (not by anymeans all) of the instructors one sees in schools who clearly have that "God I'm going to be an airline captain and I'm only here becasue I have to be don't mess with me I am already pissed off" attitude. If we accept that most flying school owner are not making a fortune and are more likley lossing one, the only other variable in the equation has to be hire rates both for the aircraft and the instructor.
Again if you accept that there are costs to employong anyone, even on a pay as you fly basis, some of the instructor element has to go to the operator to cover those costs, and of course they also want to try and make a profit. (No business, not even a flying school is there to provide employement, or even necessarily train people, its main objective is make a profit for the shareholders, don't forget that). So if you take this into account what rate should be added to the basic self hire rate to give a good enough additional revenue to the operator to enable them to pay the higher salareries. If someone can come up with something workable that will not just turn customers away, I am sure it will be used.
Some suggestions from you instructors out there would be more contructive than just saying I want more money.
Also bear this in mind, Wannabes and Private Flying forums are full of people trying to get flying as cheaply as possible. No doubt most of you as instructors have spent time hunting around for the cheapest possible flying to build hours or whatever. This seems contary to the desire now to up the overall cost of flying now that you are looking to make money.
I agree with Martindoc and I'm sure it would make for a much better, more enthused and focused instructors than some (not by anymeans all) of the instructors one sees in schools who clearly have that "God I'm going to be an airline captain and I'm only here becasue I have to be don't mess with me I am already pissed off" attitude. If we accept that most flying school owner are not making a fortune and are more likley lossing one, the only other variable in the equation has to be hire rates both for the aircraft and the instructor.
Again if you accept that there are costs to employong anyone, even on a pay as you fly basis, some of the instructor element has to go to the operator to cover those costs, and of course they also want to try and make a profit. (No business, not even a flying school is there to provide employement, or even necessarily train people, its main objective is make a profit for the shareholders, don't forget that). So if you take this into account what rate should be added to the basic self hire rate to give a good enough additional revenue to the operator to enable them to pay the higher salareries. If someone can come up with something workable that will not just turn customers away, I am sure it will be used.
Some suggestions from you instructors out there would be more contructive than just saying I want more money.
Also bear this in mind, Wannabes and Private Flying forums are full of people trying to get flying as cheaply as possible. No doubt most of you as instructors have spent time hunting around for the cheapest possible flying to build hours or whatever. This seems contary to the desire now to up the overall cost of flying now that you are looking to make money.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
From: Oakland-California
Its seems like everything has been said a couple of times already in this thread.
As Ludwig says, when most of us were students we were looking REALLY hard to get the best deal.
I checked out several schools and wanted the cheapest way of getting my ratings with a CERTAIN degree of quality.
Flight Safety were way too expensive so I chose Comair in Florida.
Now Ive been informed that they have really upped their prices and Scandinavian students are really hard (close to impossible) to get started there.
Ive dreamed of being able to live off instructing because my students tell me Im good at it and most importantly, I enjoy it.
Im not going to pretend that I dont wanna fly for a big Airline, but Im in no rush. I think I belong to the majority in that respect.
But the aviation training market is too narrow and the students that have big bucks are hard to come by. Mostly its younger ppl at the end of their teens/start of their twenties that are dreaming of becoming airline pilots, but have VERY limited funds, just like US when we started.
PLUS...there are SOO many instructors out there compared to the number of students, so if you try to up the price, you will find yourself without buissniss.
Its a matter of supply and demand....And we are short of students....
As Ludwig says, when most of us were students we were looking REALLY hard to get the best deal.
I checked out several schools and wanted the cheapest way of getting my ratings with a CERTAIN degree of quality.
Flight Safety were way too expensive so I chose Comair in Florida.
Now Ive been informed that they have really upped their prices and Scandinavian students are really hard (close to impossible) to get started there.
Ive dreamed of being able to live off instructing because my students tell me Im good at it and most importantly, I enjoy it.
Im not going to pretend that I dont wanna fly for a big Airline, but Im in no rush. I think I belong to the majority in that respect.
But the aviation training market is too narrow and the students that have big bucks are hard to come by. Mostly its younger ppl at the end of their teens/start of their twenties that are dreaming of becoming airline pilots, but have VERY limited funds, just like US when we started.
PLUS...there are SOO many instructors out there compared to the number of students, so if you try to up the price, you will find yourself without buissniss.
Its a matter of supply and demand....And we are short of students....
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
From: Hong Kong
A theme within this thread has been that the zero-experience wanbees do the rounds of the flying schools to see who charges the least, ie per aircraft hour.
It is not until after they start flying with that 'cheap per hour' organisation that it slowly dawns on them that they are being taken for a ride in that their flying is not progressing at the same rate as their mate who went to fly with a different school that charged more per hour!. They have a feeling that they are being stuffed around.
In short they will have to do more of those 'cheap' hours to get to the expected standard.
Now if they had paid more per hour from the start prehaps they could have ended up with a more experienced instructor, one who could get them through to standard in a shorter time and therefore save them money compared to 'cheap hours charlie'.
Perhaps when we as instructors encounter the wanabees looking at prices we should strongly push the aspect that it is quality of instruction, not cost per hour, that will see them through to standard in the quickest time and with a better standard at that.
A higher cost per hour should also be indicative of a better, more realistic, pay per hour to the instructor, an instructor who is encouraged to stay on and in the industry simply because he/she is paid a reasonable wage for (good) services rendered.
It is not until after they start flying with that 'cheap per hour' organisation that it slowly dawns on them that they are being taken for a ride in that their flying is not progressing at the same rate as their mate who went to fly with a different school that charged more per hour!. They have a feeling that they are being stuffed around.
In short they will have to do more of those 'cheap' hours to get to the expected standard.
Now if they had paid more per hour from the start prehaps they could have ended up with a more experienced instructor, one who could get them through to standard in a shorter time and therefore save them money compared to 'cheap hours charlie'.
Perhaps when we as instructors encounter the wanabees looking at prices we should strongly push the aspect that it is quality of instruction, not cost per hour, that will see them through to standard in the quickest time and with a better standard at that.
A higher cost per hour should also be indicative of a better, more realistic, pay per hour to the instructor, an instructor who is encouraged to stay on and in the industry simply because he/she is paid a reasonable wage for (good) services rendered.