Shafting of Instructors
The Bumblebee
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CYYZ,
The flight instructor is not the agent, he/she is the person who is providing the services. The school is the agent. So you see, as per your theory, the agent is keeping 55% of the income.
As for whinning, no one is ever content. If some instructors want to write about it, so be it. That doesnt mean that they dont love instructing. Would you rather go with an instructor who is underpaid or with an instructor whos pay is at par (assuming you as a student still pay $40 per hour!)?
In my school, which is part of history now, due to new visa requiremtns, we charged students US$15 per hour and we paid instructors US$15 per hour. I hope that clarifies what we instructors mean by shafting.
Anyway, good luck with your flight training.
Best Wishes,
Jatin Gaur
Oh and I almost forgot, your posting doesnt show the best attitude either!!
The flight instructor is not the agent, he/she is the person who is providing the services. The school is the agent. So you see, as per your theory, the agent is keeping 55% of the income.
As for whinning, no one is ever content. If some instructors want to write about it, so be it. That doesnt mean that they dont love instructing. Would you rather go with an instructor who is underpaid or with an instructor whos pay is at par (assuming you as a student still pay $40 per hour!)?
In my school, which is part of history now, due to new visa requiremtns, we charged students US$15 per hour and we paid instructors US$15 per hour. I hope that clarifies what we instructors mean by shafting.
Anyway, good luck with your flight training.
Best Wishes,
Jatin Gaur
Oh and I almost forgot, your posting doesnt show the best attitude either!!
I had a problem with my flight school, I'd book the plane for 3 hrs and bring it back in an hour and they said "you booked it for 3 hrs and brought it back early, bad" they wanted to charge me. So the next day I picked up the plane flew to the another airport, left the plane there, flew back at night, the plane was gone for almost 10 hours, I was charged for "flight time" two hours, they don't tell me anything about bringing the plane back early. =)
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shaft
LOL, My theory, bring back the plane early so others can use it, their theory, lol we'll charge you for bringing it back early and still make money off of some one still flying it.. So they'd be making twice the cash. Not quite logical thinking, so I showed them I was doing them a favour instead of taking the plane for XX amount of hours and not flying it, that they were able to make more money off the plane upon it's arrival since they charge for flight time.
I agree about instructors being shafted, but their wage isn't what they're being screwed with. My instructor wasn't allowed to teach on the schools multi, because the CFI had a clause in his contract(and insurance) that he was the only one to fly it and get multi-hours. so my instructor went to the charter bought block time on their plane and teaches on it. charging same rate for the plane and $15/hr for his lessons at the school he was making $18.
HERE a better example, Young Drivers of Canada, and most likely any other driving school. The instructor provides his own car. At YDC the instructor make $25/hr, he spends his own money on the car, the gas and what not the student pays $35/hr.
At a flight school, the instructor doesn't pay for anything his tools are provided for him. The student pays for the plane and the instructor logs flight time.
SUM it up
driving school
instructor
pays for expenses(insurance, gas,etc)
pays for car
pays with time
TEACHES - $25/hr
Flight instructor
pays for NOTHING
Logs hours
teaches - $18/hr
Happy with that example?
I agree about instructors being shafted, but their wage isn't what they're being screwed with. My instructor wasn't allowed to teach on the schools multi, because the CFI had a clause in his contract(and insurance) that he was the only one to fly it and get multi-hours. so my instructor went to the charter bought block time on their plane and teaches on it. charging same rate for the plane and $15/hr for his lessons at the school he was making $18.
HERE a better example, Young Drivers of Canada, and most likely any other driving school. The instructor provides his own car. At YDC the instructor make $25/hr, he spends his own money on the car, the gas and what not the student pays $35/hr.
At a flight school, the instructor doesn't pay for anything his tools are provided for him. The student pays for the plane and the instructor logs flight time.
SUM it up
driving school
instructor
pays for expenses(insurance, gas,etc)
pays for car
pays with time
TEACHES - $25/hr
Flight instructor
pays for NOTHING
Logs hours
teaches - $18/hr
Happy with that example?
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A few points to ponder.
Firstly, the notion in this thread that students are queuing up to spend vast amounts learning to fly the R22 is misplaced. There are too many schools, too many instructors, too many R22s and too few students in the market to maintain viable margins. I speak as an R22 owner and instructor.
Secondly, the notion that we're all going to be making oodles of money in the airlines in ten years time is also highly dubious. The current airline case, that traffic will increase exponentially over the next 20 years as it has in the past 20, is clearly balderdash. The past two years have seen a significant decline in passenger traffic, which according to the airlines should have come back by now. Furthermore, airlines cannot go on forever paying no fuel tax, and that's really going to put the cat among the pigeons.
Thirdly, we're at the point where fewer people want to become airline captains anyway. They're no longer the popular heores of my youth - today they're more often the 'blundering pilot' of tabloid fame who carries the can when it all goes to rats. They get no respect, decreasing satisfaction, and very little money when compared with other professions - doctors, lawyers. If you want a model for the future of airlines, look at the once-proud British maritime industry... Indian captains and Filipino crews working for peanuts.
If you go into a line of business, you have to accept the rate for the job. It's no use holding out for more because you deserve respect - if there are ten guys able and lining up to do your job, the price will come down, simple as that.
To any student looking at a career in aviation, I have one piece of advice - go to law school, then buy a plane and hire some mug to drive it for you.
Firstly, the notion in this thread that students are queuing up to spend vast amounts learning to fly the R22 is misplaced. There are too many schools, too many instructors, too many R22s and too few students in the market to maintain viable margins. I speak as an R22 owner and instructor.
Secondly, the notion that we're all going to be making oodles of money in the airlines in ten years time is also highly dubious. The current airline case, that traffic will increase exponentially over the next 20 years as it has in the past 20, is clearly balderdash. The past two years have seen a significant decline in passenger traffic, which according to the airlines should have come back by now. Furthermore, airlines cannot go on forever paying no fuel tax, and that's really going to put the cat among the pigeons.
Thirdly, we're at the point where fewer people want to become airline captains anyway. They're no longer the popular heores of my youth - today they're more often the 'blundering pilot' of tabloid fame who carries the can when it all goes to rats. They get no respect, decreasing satisfaction, and very little money when compared with other professions - doctors, lawyers. If you want a model for the future of airlines, look at the once-proud British maritime industry... Indian captains and Filipino crews working for peanuts.
If you go into a line of business, you have to accept the rate for the job. It's no use holding out for more because you deserve respect - if there are ten guys able and lining up to do your job, the price will come down, simple as that.
To any student looking at a career in aviation, I have one piece of advice - go to law school, then buy a plane and hire some mug to drive it for you.
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Interesting subject, historically instructors have been paid peanuts and it will probably never change.
There is one way to make money instructing and that is when you have aquired a lifetime of flying instruct as a freelance and specialize in something that people will pay for.
I operate a one person flight training business in Canada, I have a very low overhead due to not needing to go to all the expense of getting a Government approved operating certificate. Nor do I have all the hassel of needing an instructor rating. My only restriction is I canno't train students for a license, which of course is no problem as my clients already have licenses.
My hourly rate is $50.00 to $450.00 Canadian per hour for dual instruction, the client provides the airplane.
It is beyond me how Instructors can even live on the abismal wages they are paid.
However I have no answer as to how this can be changed.
Cat Driver:
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
There is one way to make money instructing and that is when you have aquired a lifetime of flying instruct as a freelance and specialize in something that people will pay for.
I operate a one person flight training business in Canada, I have a very low overhead due to not needing to go to all the expense of getting a Government approved operating certificate. Nor do I have all the hassel of needing an instructor rating. My only restriction is I canno't train students for a license, which of course is no problem as my clients already have licenses.
My hourly rate is $50.00 to $450.00 Canadian per hour for dual instruction, the client provides the airplane.
It is beyond me how Instructors can even live on the abismal wages they are paid.
However I have no answer as to how this can be changed.
Cat Driver:
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
The Oracle
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Chuck,
It is "Slave Labour" as many of the posts in this thread put it. I agree with them 100%. NAC does not make any money off of the instructors. The reason is the market will only allow so much to be charged for instruction. It barely covers the salary of the instructor.
Recently I had a visit from one of my previous instructors, who is now flying four engine jets for Northwest. He instructed at NAC when we were an FAA only school. His visit reminded me of the program we implemented during his employ at NAC. The program was set up under the premise that instructors are professionals and should be paid according to their experience. We set up four tiers for instruction. The students could choose which level of instructor experience they wanted. It went from a low time instructor all the way to a gold seal instructor. After six months I found that when the instructor would reach the level of experience to move to the next pay level they would not tell me. I thought it was odd and I held an instructor meeting just to discuss that issue. What came out was that they did not want to keep advancing in pay scales (which meant student would pay more for the instructor's time) since the more experienced instructors were not getting much work. The students when given the option between instructors would take the instructor which cost less.
As slaves I believe they do not get what the deserve pay wise as professionals. But also as slaves, they get to make their own schedule and work at their own pace. There is only one restriction I put on them. They must operate within the rules at all times.
Happy Slaving Away,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
It is "Slave Labour" as many of the posts in this thread put it. I agree with them 100%. NAC does not make any money off of the instructors. The reason is the market will only allow so much to be charged for instruction. It barely covers the salary of the instructor.
Recently I had a visit from one of my previous instructors, who is now flying four engine jets for Northwest. He instructed at NAC when we were an FAA only school. His visit reminded me of the program we implemented during his employ at NAC. The program was set up under the premise that instructors are professionals and should be paid according to their experience. We set up four tiers for instruction. The students could choose which level of instructor experience they wanted. It went from a low time instructor all the way to a gold seal instructor. After six months I found that when the instructor would reach the level of experience to move to the next pay level they would not tell me. I thought it was odd and I held an instructor meeting just to discuss that issue. What came out was that they did not want to keep advancing in pay scales (which meant student would pay more for the instructor's time) since the more experienced instructors were not getting much work. The students when given the option between instructors would take the instructor which cost less.
As slaves I believe they do not get what the deserve pay wise as professionals. But also as slaves, they get to make their own schedule and work at their own pace. There is only one restriction I put on them. They must operate within the rules at all times.
Happy Slaving Away,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
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Hi Richard:
All the best to you and yours for Christmas and the New Year.
I see your front runner to replace Trent Lott is Bill Frist, seems he is an airplane lover. If he wins why not get all the Flight Schools to lobby him for tax reductions on "all" flight training.
Another suggestion you may ponder is lobbying the Insurance underwriters to give less expensive insurance to Flight Training businesses who can demonstrate that their quality of flight training will reduce insurance pay outs through less accidents.
The key to this is better Instruction and that can only be acheived through offering incentives to better instructors.
There are only two real incentives that I know of and one is money, the other one is only legal in Nevada as far as I know....but then all your employees would have to be female.
This pay for instructors is in my opinion the most serious problem in Aviation, always has been.
Anyhow you give this some thought as I think it is doable with the right game plan.
Chuck Ellsworth.
All the best to you and yours for Christmas and the New Year.
I see your front runner to replace Trent Lott is Bill Frist, seems he is an airplane lover. If he wins why not get all the Flight Schools to lobby him for tax reductions on "all" flight training.
Another suggestion you may ponder is lobbying the Insurance underwriters to give less expensive insurance to Flight Training businesses who can demonstrate that their quality of flight training will reduce insurance pay outs through less accidents.
The key to this is better Instruction and that can only be acheived through offering incentives to better instructors.
There are only two real incentives that I know of and one is money, the other one is only legal in Nevada as far as I know....but then all your employees would have to be female.
This pay for instructors is in my opinion the most serious problem in Aviation, always has been.
Anyhow you give this some thought as I think it is doable with the right game plan.
Chuck Ellsworth.
Safety First!
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Shafted or privileged?
Instructors may feel they are being shafted, and to a certain point I agree they are. However those of you in the UK and USA should take a look at other countries and be thankful for the pay conditions you have.
As much as it feels hurtful for you to receive only about 45% of each dual flight, consider this. In NZ it would be typical for an instructor to receive about 12% of the total fee charged by the employer.
Schools and Aero Clubs could charge enormous fees for flying and pay their staff salaries that better reflect the time, money and effort put in by instructors to gain their qualifications and experience. But then the option of flying would be out of reach for a large proportion of the population. Those who fly for pleasure would find alternative forms of aviation such as gliding, microlighting etc, and customer bases would diminish, causing widespread lay offs and closures.
In the end, if you don't like it, find an alternative, because it's been like this for years and it is unlikely to change. As an instructor I enjoy my work, the financial hardship is better than flying a desk in a bank or insurance company, and at 50 wishing I hadn't passed up the flying experiences and opportunities I had when I was younger.
I guess it is similar to the scenario of a struggling artist who lives off the small financial retuns from their work and tolerates it because it is their life.
Merry Xmas and happy holidays,
Kermie
As much as it feels hurtful for you to receive only about 45% of each dual flight, consider this. In NZ it would be typical for an instructor to receive about 12% of the total fee charged by the employer.
Schools and Aero Clubs could charge enormous fees for flying and pay their staff salaries that better reflect the time, money and effort put in by instructors to gain their qualifications and experience. But then the option of flying would be out of reach for a large proportion of the population. Those who fly for pleasure would find alternative forms of aviation such as gliding, microlighting etc, and customer bases would diminish, causing widespread lay offs and closures.
In the end, if you don't like it, find an alternative, because it's been like this for years and it is unlikely to change. As an instructor I enjoy my work, the financial hardship is better than flying a desk in a bank or insurance company, and at 50 wishing I hadn't passed up the flying experiences and opportunities I had when I was younger.
I guess it is similar to the scenario of a struggling artist who lives off the small financial retuns from their work and tolerates it because it is their life.
Merry Xmas and happy holidays,
Kermie
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I know I have contributed to this debate before and I also know that it "went quiet" for a while before starting again recently.
I was just reading the latest posts and the thought that occurs to me is that the debate is perpetuated by forgetting what "drives" the low rate of pay.
It is NOT the reluctance of those wishing to learn (just take alook at helicopter rates - people pay because that is what they want and that is how much it is - those who want it but cannot pay just go and do something else).
What perpetuates the low pay is that traditionally (and don't we all know this ?) the instructing role was en route to the "jet job" and to build hours you would even have "your arse painted red" if that was what was going to take. For those who do not want this (the "jet job", not the "paint job") it is a tough one because the flight schools can STILL find someone else to do it for less.
Happy happy !
I was just reading the latest posts and the thought that occurs to me is that the debate is perpetuated by forgetting what "drives" the low rate of pay.
It is NOT the reluctance of those wishing to learn (just take alook at helicopter rates - people pay because that is what they want and that is how much it is - those who want it but cannot pay just go and do something else).
What perpetuates the low pay is that traditionally (and don't we all know this ?) the instructing role was en route to the "jet job" and to build hours you would even have "your arse painted red" if that was what was going to take. For those who do not want this (the "jet job", not the "paint job") it is a tough one because the flight schools can STILL find someone else to do it for less.
Happy happy !
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I can relate to what you are saying. I to have had trouble with an employer that I have had. I used to put in a lot of hours and dedication into a place where I worked only to be thanked by them Backstabbing me constantly. They were saying things like "He hasn't ernt his bars"(which upset me greatly) and that was one of the nicer things they said. That was after I had worked 3 jobs to pay for my instructor rating! These poeple were the sort that if they made a mistake rather then owning up to it they would falsify records and blame others rather then owning up to it.
Yes they were Arseholes but it is not the only industry where this sort of thing happens. I have some friends who are musucians who expierience the same thing.
The whole thing is to get out there and meet poeple in the industry and get to know who the good ones are because there are good ones out there who don't saft you. You just have to find them. Thats the hard bit.
The worst thing about instructing is that yes you do get some poeple that just do it to get hours and don't instruct and they are the types that make things difficult for those that like the job, so what you have to do is make your instructing do the talking and rise above that find a good operator and your job will be much batter.
Hows all that sound ? bye for now
Yes they were Arseholes but it is not the only industry where this sort of thing happens. I have some friends who are musucians who expierience the same thing.
The whole thing is to get out there and meet poeple in the industry and get to know who the good ones are because there are good ones out there who don't saft you. You just have to find them. Thats the hard bit.
The worst thing about instructing is that yes you do get some poeple that just do it to get hours and don't instruct and they are the types that make things difficult for those that like the job, so what you have to do is make your instructing do the talking and rise above that find a good operator and your job will be much batter.
Hows all that sound ? bye for now
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union of Flying Instructors?
This is about as likely as seeing pink wriggly tailed flying objects.
You must realise that no union is viable unless a majority of the total group of whatever are members of that union.
Take a look at my last post. Even though in the UK, there no longer is an "self improvers" route to getting a CPL/ATPL, it is STILL possible to have plentiful of instructors just from the "doing it for fun" group.
In the UK, most small flying clubs will have a register of 30-40 such people that they can call on at any time - so there is a good chance that they can provide cover for any part of the week.
You must realise that no union is viable unless a majority of the total group of whatever are members of that union.
Take a look at my last post. Even though in the UK, there no longer is an "self improvers" route to getting a CPL/ATPL, it is STILL possible to have plentiful of instructors just from the "doing it for fun" group.
In the UK, most small flying clubs will have a register of 30-40 such people that they can call on at any time - so there is a good chance that they can provide cover for any part of the week.
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Well, I'm one such, and I'm not sure I will be for much longer.
I was just charged £205 for a Class 1 medical, and I have to renew it in six months.
The only reason I have the Class 1 is to instruct. I've kept the instructor rating up because if it lapses, I'll never be able to renew - I have a CAA rather than a JAA rating. But the expenditure is getting silly.
I was just charged £205 for a Class 1 medical, and I have to renew it in six months.
The only reason I have the Class 1 is to instruct. I've kept the instructor rating up because if it lapses, I'll never be able to renew - I have a CAA rather than a JAA rating. But the expenditure is getting silly.
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t'aint natural
You got shafted by the regulator, a monopolistic QUANGO with few market forces driving their decisions. That's unlike customers and especially employers, who deal with market forces everyday.
Do you really need a class 1 medical to instruct in a C152? Wow!
chuck
The way things are going, flight schools in the US are going to need to lobby to get insurance at all. Schools are starting to eat the cost of any damage as they do not dare to make claims for fear of being dropped totally. It's now become the most serious problem for flight schools, not instructor pay.
You got shafted by the regulator, a monopolistic QUANGO with few market forces driving their decisions. That's unlike customers and especially employers, who deal with market forces everyday.
Do you really need a class 1 medical to instruct in a C152? Wow!
chuck
The way things are going, flight schools in the US are going to need to lobby to get insurance at all. Schools are starting to eat the cost of any damage as they do not dare to make claims for fear of being dropped totally. It's now become the most serious problem for flight schools, not instructor pay.
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t'aint natural
I know how you feel. Unfortunately it appears that JAA instruction regulations have been "commercialised" just like the regulations for twin rating training (no wish to change subject here). So unless you are instructing for the likes of Oxford or that you have excess income from another source, it is now difficult to afford the cost of being an instructor.
There is a small chance that the NPPL will make things easier if there is a lot of demand. What is stupid is that the NPPL is so much like the "old" UK PPL that we had - what on earth was the point of changing it all, only to turn around and go back to the original system to try and attract more people to gaining a PPL.
It may be that in the UK, within 10 years we will only have the commercial flight training organisations remaining.
I know how you feel. Unfortunately it appears that JAA instruction regulations have been "commercialised" just like the regulations for twin rating training (no wish to change subject here). So unless you are instructing for the likes of Oxford or that you have excess income from another source, it is now difficult to afford the cost of being an instructor.
There is a small chance that the NPPL will make things easier if there is a lot of demand. What is stupid is that the NPPL is so much like the "old" UK PPL that we had - what on earth was the point of changing it all, only to turn around and go back to the original system to try and attract more people to gaining a PPL.
It may be that in the UK, within 10 years we will only have the commercial flight training organisations remaining.
Last edited by walkingthewalk; 27th Dec 2002 at 15:56.
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Walking:
Yes, the NPPL is a good thing, but I teach rotary, so no comfort there.
Slimslag:
Yes, you need a Class 1 for instruction in anything. In the good old days before JAR, a Class 1 became a Class 2 after six months, and you could instruct on that. So you only needed a Class 1 once a year.
Yes, the NPPL is a good thing, but I teach rotary, so no comfort there.
Slimslag:
Yes, you need a Class 1 for instruction in anything. In the good old days before JAR, a Class 1 became a Class 2 after six months, and you could instruct on that. So you only needed a Class 1 once a year.
