Shafting of Instructors
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Shafting of Instructors
Am I alone in feeling shafted because I enjoy flying and instructing
Pay crap.
Comittement and loyalty expected but not given.
I wouldn't my employees that way but it seems in the current market Flight training organisations think they can treat us any way they feel. Especially Part-Timers
Pay crap.
Comittement and loyalty expected but not given.
I wouldn't my employees that way but it seems in the current market Flight training organisations think they can treat us any way they feel. Especially Part-Timers
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Could not agree more!
The problem would appear that the schools train more pilots than the market has jobs for. The result is that some people are prepared to accept sub-standard conditions, eg, pay, work unpaid hours on 'the front desk', in hangars etc. just to get the bosses eye and stay on to get those extra hours.
The fact of the matter is that the boss would not be prepared to come around to my place and attend to the phone for fee - ever!
Nor clean my car and bathroom for free - ever.
So why do some pilots do it. Simple they are trying to get more brownie points in front of the next guy.
My opinion is that if the organisation cannot pay reasonable wages (considering the amount the pilot has spent on training) and give reasonable conditions then that organisation should NOT be inbusiness.
The problem would appear that the schools train more pilots than the market has jobs for. The result is that some people are prepared to accept sub-standard conditions, eg, pay, work unpaid hours on 'the front desk', in hangars etc. just to get the bosses eye and stay on to get those extra hours.
The fact of the matter is that the boss would not be prepared to come around to my place and attend to the phone for fee - ever!
Nor clean my car and bathroom for free - ever.
So why do some pilots do it. Simple they are trying to get more brownie points in front of the next guy.
My opinion is that if the organisation cannot pay reasonable wages (considering the amount the pilot has spent on training) and give reasonable conditions then that organisation should NOT be inbusiness.
Moderator
Yes a lot of instructors feel shafted, but consider this also. If you feel you are being shafted, what did you agree to when you first started working there? If you agree to work for peanuts and wash the boss's car and executive washroom, then you can't then turn around and say that you are being shafted when you are asked to do exactly that.
When I started up I only ever gave new instructors the realistic view that I would provide an infrastructure within which they could develop their careers if they provided their own students initially, but the rest of the work would be done by myself or my senior instructors. Yet still I had accusations of "you never give me any students!"
I will add that my instructors don't have to be there unless they are flying, and the front desk is done by full time ground staff, the instructors are never asked to do anything but instruct.
I know there are employers who expect you to be there all day, and pay you only for flying time. No, this is not good, but if you agreed to it then you have created the situation yourself. The thinking that if you didn't take the job someone else would is not necessarily so, we all started somewhere, and when you reallise that success or failure is your choice and not your employer's, then you too will succeed.
Good luck!
When I started up I only ever gave new instructors the realistic view that I would provide an infrastructure within which they could develop their careers if they provided their own students initially, but the rest of the work would be done by myself or my senior instructors. Yet still I had accusations of "you never give me any students!"
I will add that my instructors don't have to be there unless they are flying, and the front desk is done by full time ground staff, the instructors are never asked to do anything but instruct.I know there are employers who expect you to be there all day, and pay you only for flying time. No, this is not good, but if you agreed to it then you have created the situation yourself. The thinking that if you didn't take the job someone else would is not necessarily so, we all started somewhere, and when you reallise that success or failure is your choice and not your employer's, then you too will succeed.
Good luck!
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Flydive,
I get the impression that you instruct part time: I think this is the key:yes the pay is poor and will never get better, but if you enjoy it and it is only a side line to your normal occupation then it is a way of getting free flying.
I instructed full time for three years and at the end was tearing my hair out:my flying had long since peaked and started to deteriorate, I had a low level of patience with students, all in all I had a bad case of instructor burn out:I would never recommend anyone doing it full time unless they need the hours prior to going commercial:there is just too much repetition for it to stay enjoyable.
Now I am back doing it and a few days a week is just staying enjoyable, but i shall not be renewing the rating next time.
I get the impression that you instruct part time: I think this is the key:yes the pay is poor and will never get better, but if you enjoy it and it is only a side line to your normal occupation then it is a way of getting free flying.
I instructed full time for three years and at the end was tearing my hair out:my flying had long since peaked and started to deteriorate, I had a low level of patience with students, all in all I had a bad case of instructor burn out:I would never recommend anyone doing it full time unless they need the hours prior to going commercial:there is just too much repetition for it to stay enjoyable.
Now I am back doing it and a few days a week is just staying enjoyable, but i shall not be renewing the rating next time.
Flydive. -Jenny etc.
Definitely with you regarding the crummy return on our investment.
BUT consider this - the punters can realistically only afford to pay so much per hour before there aren't any punters !
Our problem,in this beloved country of ours,is the cost of the juice we have to shove into our aircraft and also the cost of maintenance/spares amongst other things.
The easiest way to keep the price reasonable is to keep down the rewards for the instructor, and unfortunately there are dozens who are prepared to accept this.
Oh for the days of no VAT, Fuel Tax and even the Aviation Fuel Rebate that Clubs used to get in the Fifties/and,I think,Sixties in order to maintain a pool of trained pilots in the Country !
Such a large proportion of our costs is fuel these days, that unless the diesel comes in or some other source of cheap fuel becomes available,
the situation is unlikely to change.
There are a million young kids out there, deep into Airfix and Free-flight pylon jobs, who will follow just as we did and take anything to get a start in the flying game.
Sleeve.
Definitely with you regarding the crummy return on our investment.
BUT consider this - the punters can realistically only afford to pay so much per hour before there aren't any punters !
Our problem,in this beloved country of ours,is the cost of the juice we have to shove into our aircraft and also the cost of maintenance/spares amongst other things.
The easiest way to keep the price reasonable is to keep down the rewards for the instructor, and unfortunately there are dozens who are prepared to accept this.
Oh for the days of no VAT, Fuel Tax and even the Aviation Fuel Rebate that Clubs used to get in the Fifties/and,I think,Sixties in order to maintain a pool of trained pilots in the Country !
Such a large proportion of our costs is fuel these days, that unless the diesel comes in or some other source of cheap fuel becomes available,
the situation is unlikely to change.
There are a million young kids out there, deep into Airfix and Free-flight pylon jobs, who will follow just as we did and take anything to get a start in the flying game.
Sleeve.
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Mr F.D
You are not alone. When I started the instructor poll I was aiming at the same point. However it does seem that over half of us are 'happy'
I personally have just about had enough of the whole scene. Fortunately the club I work at are very good to me, but this is still on the basis that I do not get paid if I don't fly.
I can also empathise with Whisperbrick, I think I am having a bad case of 'instructor burnout'.
I have done it for three years now and I can assure I will not do it next year.
The answer? I do not know.
Rant over
ICN
You are not alone. When I started the instructor poll I was aiming at the same point. However it does seem that over half of us are 'happy'
I personally have just about had enough of the whole scene. Fortunately the club I work at are very good to me, but this is still on the basis that I do not get paid if I don't fly.
I can also empathise with Whisperbrick, I think I am having a bad case of 'instructor burnout'.
I have done it for three years now and I can assure I will not do it next year.
The answer? I do not know.
Rant over
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In-Cog-neeto
If you feel that way, why are you doing it?
As a punter, I want an instructer who enjoys what he/she is doing and has the ability to impart knowledge and experience to us students and not someone who is doing it because they can't get another job.
If you feel that you are getting shafted by your employeers then maybe you should start making an effort to improve your lot by getting another career.
C-I-M
If you feel that way, why are you doing it?
As a punter, I want an instructer who enjoys what he/she is doing and has the ability to impart knowledge and experience to us students and not someone who is doing it because they can't get another job.
If you feel that you are getting shafted by your employeers then maybe you should start making an effort to improve your lot by getting another career.
C-I-M
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C-I-M,
come on, wake up.
there are a few instructors who do it part time and just for the enjoyment:whilst the vast majority see it as a stepping stone to airlines,
Do you think we enjoy getting paid £10,000 a year to risk our necks flying light aircraft (oh yes and getting paid sod all when the weather is bad)
Or that we enjoy driving battered cars with 100k miles on them ans seeing students arrive in porsches and ferraris ?
There must be an a motive: progression !
And as a student you are probably totally wrapped up in the beauty of flight:for us it is a job which has good and bad bits like any job (your own included)
But the beauty of flight blah, blah doesn't pay my damn mortgage does it ?:
come on, wake up.
there are a few instructors who do it part time and just for the enjoyment:whilst the vast majority see it as a stepping stone to airlines,
Do you think we enjoy getting paid £10,000 a year to risk our necks flying light aircraft (oh yes and getting paid sod all when the weather is bad)
Or that we enjoy driving battered cars with 100k miles on them ans seeing students arrive in porsches and ferraris ?
There must be an a motive: progression !
And as a student you are probably totally wrapped up in the beauty of flight:for us it is a job which has good and bad bits like any job (your own included)
But the beauty of flight blah, blah doesn't pay my damn mortgage does it ?:
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whisperbrick
Do you think that I enjoyed earning 'slave wages' whilst I was gaining the necessary qualifications for my job.
It is something that you do in order to acheive the aim.
But then again, I did not have to deal with paying punters. (I was locked away in a lab)
As a PPL student, I think that I can reasonably expect to recieve a good quality service for my hard earned money and not 'a bad case of instructor burnout'.
BTW No porsche or ferrari here.
Do you think that I enjoyed earning 'slave wages' whilst I was gaining the necessary qualifications for my job.
It is something that you do in order to acheive the aim.
But then again, I did not have to deal with paying punters. (I was locked away in a lab)
As a PPL student, I think that I can reasonably expect to recieve a good quality service for my hard earned money and not 'a bad case of instructor burnout'.
BTW No porsche or ferrari here.
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Woah boys, steady on.................I did not mean this to become close up and personal 
For what it's worth C-I-M I give my students 110 % value.
You have struck close though. I do consider that if my heart is not in it then I should get out, and as I said in my first post I will finish this year.
BTW I would LOVE to get a better job but as you might be aware it is a VERY TOUGH TIME in the aviation industry right now.
A relevant point that I have made in an earlier posting is that the training industry will lose YET ANOTHER highly experienced instructor !!!
I am very good at my job and will leave the training industry at a time when I have a good dollop of the "knowledge and experience" that you seek from an instructor. So what would you prefer C-I-M ? My one and a half thousand hours instructing or someone who has just qualified (no offence meant to fellow instructors) ?.
Maybe it IS a case of 'you get what you pay for' after all. By keeping the pay and motivation down the experienced instructors are leaving in droves.
ICN
For what it's worth C-I-M I give my students 110 % value.
You have struck close though. I do consider that if my heart is not in it then I should get out, and as I said in my first post I will finish this year.
BTW I would LOVE to get a better job but as you might be aware it is a VERY TOUGH TIME in the aviation industry right now.
A relevant point that I have made in an earlier posting is that the training industry will lose YET ANOTHER highly experienced instructor !!!
I am very good at my job and will leave the training industry at a time when I have a good dollop of the "knowledge and experience" that you seek from an instructor. So what would you prefer C-I-M ? My one and a half thousand hours instructing or someone who has just qualified (no offence meant to fellow instructors) ?.
Maybe it IS a case of 'you get what you pay for' after all. By keeping the pay and motivation down the experienced instructors are leaving in droves.
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ok,
C-I-M I forgive you as you have no porsche !
Its just that i have had students with loadsa dosh who swan in without any preparation (you know not reading the thom sections I asked etc.)and feel cos they have money they don't need to make any effort.
In-cog makes an intersting point:which would you rather have a brand new instructor, no experience but keen and eager to do their thing or an experienced person who may be a bit jaded by it all ?
C-I-M I forgive you as you have no porsche !
Its just that i have had students with loadsa dosh who swan in without any preparation (you know not reading the thom sections I asked etc.)and feel cos they have money they don't need to make any effort.
In-cog makes an intersting point:which would you rather have a brand new instructor, no experience but keen and eager to do their thing or an experienced person who may be a bit jaded by it all ?
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Well...I got well over 1000 hours as an instructor, and I still enjoy it. I DO think we are very much underpaid, but at the end of the day I really enjoy flying, be it by myself or as an instructor.
As with every job, when youve been overloaded with work, leaving at 0700 in the morning and not leaving the airport until 2300 for weeks, you sometimes look in the mirror and ask yourself "why am I doing this!?!"
But this is the same in most types of jobs.
Basically, I love to fly, and would do it for free if I had to!!
As with every job, when youve been overloaded with work, leaving at 0700 in the morning and not leaving the airport until 2300 for weeks, you sometimes look in the mirror and ask yourself "why am I doing this!?!"
But this is the same in most types of jobs.
Basically, I love to fly, and would do it for free if I had to!!
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Well - if you think your pay is lousy...I just heard from a colleague that he was offered a job at Comair, Sanford, Florida - as a dual rated (JAA/FAA) flying/flight instructor............for US$10 per hour.
About £6 per hour (pre tax).
About £6 per hour (pre tax).
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Thats a step up. When I were working at Comair the pay were $7.25 in 1999.
But I really expected the dual rated instructor to get better pay!!
I mean, first go thru the PVT-COM-CFI FAA ordeal.
Then the REAL pain starts with JAA ATPL!! Im doing that right now at Oxford Aviation, and I do enjoy it, but the amount of theory required comared to FAA is quite ....up there to put it mildly.
But I really expected the dual rated instructor to get better pay!!
I mean, first go thru the PVT-COM-CFI FAA ordeal.
Then the REAL pain starts with JAA ATPL!! Im doing that right now at Oxford Aviation, and I do enjoy it, but the amount of theory required comared to FAA is quite ....up there to put it mildly.
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when i did my helicopter rating in the us in 77 the instructor got $10 an hour it must have gone down since then.??
curtisjenny is pretty much on the mark and charlie foxtrot india is close exept for the fact that most new instructors don't get to negotiate for the terms or conditions of employment, thay just start and accept whatever is given. i agree that if you accept being exploited you have to live with it
it is the over abundance of willing workers that creates the problems that most of you face as you try to get ahead in this industry. supply and demand. the reason that some feel that it's exploitation, (and sometimes it is), is because you were not informed properly on the state of the industry prior to training, or did not do enough homework before setting off down the clay brick road of flying.
i see at the airport that i operate from, young eager guys that are here before me everyday, pushing out aircraft, washing and cleaning windsheilds, sweeping the hangar out and anything else that needs doing, some complain a bit (they are entitled to),most just get stuck in and do it. some bosse use them and other bosses try not to but there is not as much of a profit margin in flying training or charter as there once was. costs are getting out of hand and operators cannot cover these increases without losing customers.
unfortunately things are not looking great for the near future, you can all see that, so if you are lucky enough to have employment in flying then at least you can develop your future. think of the many others that can't get a leg in the door and never get a chance to realise the dream of having the best job on the planet.
don't give up, persevere. the rewards will come.
curtisjenny is pretty much on the mark and charlie foxtrot india is close exept for the fact that most new instructors don't get to negotiate for the terms or conditions of employment, thay just start and accept whatever is given. i agree that if you accept being exploited you have to live with it
it is the over abundance of willing workers that creates the problems that most of you face as you try to get ahead in this industry. supply and demand. the reason that some feel that it's exploitation, (and sometimes it is), is because you were not informed properly on the state of the industry prior to training, or did not do enough homework before setting off down the clay brick road of flying.
i see at the airport that i operate from, young eager guys that are here before me everyday, pushing out aircraft, washing and cleaning windsheilds, sweeping the hangar out and anything else that needs doing, some complain a bit (they are entitled to),most just get stuck in and do it. some bosse use them and other bosses try not to but there is not as much of a profit margin in flying training or charter as there once was. costs are getting out of hand and operators cannot cover these increases without losing customers.
unfortunately things are not looking great for the near future, you can all see that, so if you are lucky enough to have employment in flying then at least you can develop your future. think of the many others that can't get a leg in the door and never get a chance to realise the dream of having the best job on the planet.
don't give up, persevere. the rewards will come.
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.......... now I can see that £15 per hour isn't really all that lousy after all compared to what you guys in florida are getting ! However, I do think it's worth bearing in mind that the people who run all the small independent flying schools over here aren't ripping off their instructors and making huge profits - the people who have owned the three or four clubs I've worked in over the years have been pretty hard-up too. That's why I don't feel I'm getting shafted as the original post suggested. If we put our prices up lots of the students couldn't afford to learn to fly so we'd end up just teaching rich kids whose daddies paid whatever it cost.
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I'm not sure of the costs involved in learning to fly fixed wing but in the UK helicopter training costs about GBP 220 per hour including the VAT. Now, if it cost GBP 230 an hour in order to pay the instructor an extra GBP 10 per hour I don't believe that would put off a single potential student.
At its cheapest flying is still expensive. Before we start down this road most of us procrastinate over the money issue. In the end those that want to do it find the cash. Most of the people that I've met who fly helicopters are not rich - but they manage to find GBP 220 per hour, and they could find GBP 230 per hour.
At its cheapest flying is still expensive. Before we start down this road most of us procrastinate over the money issue. In the end those that want to do it find the cash. Most of the people that I've met who fly helicopters are not rich - but they manage to find GBP 220 per hour, and they could find GBP 230 per hour.
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Last few posts hit the nail on the head. The margin just isn't there to pay instructors a decent wage when the cost per flying hour is circa £100. Is it time to accept the fact that we are subsidising the students...and remind them of this when they fail to prepare mentally for a lesson. Paradoxically, It is not just them who pay when they need extra lessons when they are not prepared...by implication we also pay the subsidy but get a free hours flying. Unfortunatley the value of this hour is great when you are a shiny new instructor...it builds your skills and confidence. But after a while the value of this hour is degraded, as although we still are learning, we have seen a lot of it before.
Then its time to upgrade.
p.s. look at commercial instructors where they do get paid a reasonable salary...relatively
Then its time to upgrade.
p.s. look at commercial instructors where they do get paid a reasonable salary...relatively
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Its a people thing not a thing thing
I used to instruct (part-time) like whisperbrick but I too got rather bored with it. I began to feel that I was wearing an old T-shirt
It does get repetitive and after a while I started to worry
about things like the insurance cover.
It became like a job but unlike my day job it paid about
the same as the office cleaners.
The medical & renewal fees increase and the aircraft get older and older. The technology is so old in this game its laughable.
Essentially there is no investment/money in this game and for many of us its a hobby out of control.
This whole industry is artificially subsidised by obsessive (largely male) pilots who are often in a rut. They have invested to much too quit and are clinging on by a thread.
I think that the 'professional' training that instructors and the like
have to go through takes away ones perceived freedom to enjoy the experience as they become obsessed with the mechanics of it all....
Its best to be an instructor if your sociable and like a good view
It part of the entertainment business at the PPL end!
It does get repetitive and after a while I started to worry
about things like the insurance cover.
It became like a job but unlike my day job it paid about
the same as the office cleaners.
The medical & renewal fees increase and the aircraft get older and older. The technology is so old in this game its laughable.
Essentially there is no investment/money in this game and for many of us its a hobby out of control.
This whole industry is artificially subsidised by obsessive (largely male) pilots who are often in a rut. They have invested to much too quit and are clinging on by a thread.
I think that the 'professional' training that instructors and the like
have to go through takes away ones perceived freedom to enjoy the experience as they become obsessed with the mechanics of it all....
Its best to be an instructor if your sociable and like a good view
It part of the entertainment business at the PPL end!