What would you do?
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2010
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From: Up North
What would you do?
Here's a scenario:
You had taken a PPL holder to a grass airfield for some familiarisation training on that type of runway, which is a reasonable size, but with a significant slope and has standing crops on both sides right up to the runway edges.
While having a coffee, you observe a LAA tail wheel type aircraft make an approach, then disappear below the crest of the runway, then reappear possibly following a bounce or balloon, then descend out of view again, followed by a go-around. After the second "interesting" approach, it drops out of view with a high ROD, comes back into sight, touches down quite hard, then ground loops into the crops and heads back down the hill out of sight. While this was occurring one of the occupants inadvertently presses the PTT and we are treated to a string of expletives on the R/T.
A few of the locals go to help and after a while it reappears and taxis to the parking area, no injuries, no significant damage.
The two guys get out, come into the building, where one of them takes the other's licence and fills out the ratings page. There didn't seem to be any test forms, so let's assume that the one hour dual flight with an instructor had just taken place, then a revalidation by experience.
Would you sign off either the dual flight, or the rating revalidation if you'd sat through a performance like that?
I don't believe I would, I think I'd be encouraging them to undertake some further refresher training.
I understand the required hour with an instructor isn't a test, however we don't have to sign it if we think something about it wasn't safe. I those circumstances I believe the examiner should refuse to carry out the revalidation and direct the licence holder to submit an application to the CAA to carry out the administrative action.
You had taken a PPL holder to a grass airfield for some familiarisation training on that type of runway, which is a reasonable size, but with a significant slope and has standing crops on both sides right up to the runway edges.
While having a coffee, you observe a LAA tail wheel type aircraft make an approach, then disappear below the crest of the runway, then reappear possibly following a bounce or balloon, then descend out of view again, followed by a go-around. After the second "interesting" approach, it drops out of view with a high ROD, comes back into sight, touches down quite hard, then ground loops into the crops and heads back down the hill out of sight. While this was occurring one of the occupants inadvertently presses the PTT and we are treated to a string of expletives on the R/T.
A few of the locals go to help and after a while it reappears and taxis to the parking area, no injuries, no significant damage.
The two guys get out, come into the building, where one of them takes the other's licence and fills out the ratings page. There didn't seem to be any test forms, so let's assume that the one hour dual flight with an instructor had just taken place, then a revalidation by experience.
Would you sign off either the dual flight, or the rating revalidation if you'd sat through a performance like that?
I don't believe I would, I think I'd be encouraging them to undertake some further refresher training.
I understand the required hour with an instructor isn't a test, however we don't have to sign it if we think something about it wasn't safe. I those circumstances I believe the examiner should refuse to carry out the revalidation and direct the licence holder to submit an application to the CAA to carry out the administrative action.
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: UK
Do you know which pilot was flying it?
Do you have a reference for this? Current regulation only requires experience, no mention of safety! Instructors can now sign a revalidation in accordance with FCL-945 which, like a cheap Chinese watch, comes with no instructions!
however we don't have to sign it if we think something about it wasn't safe.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2010
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From: Up North
No, either person could have been handling pilot, or PIC. In fact the flight may have had nothing to do with the rating being revalidated.
Don't have a reference for that, just a recollection of reading it. What I mean though, is that an instructor carrying out the training flight for revalidation, doesn't have to sign the person's logbook. If you are the FE/CRE then yes, if the logbook has the required experience, then revalidate the rating.
Don't have a reference for that, just a recollection of reading it. What I mean though, is that an instructor carrying out the training flight for revalidation, doesn't have to sign the person's logbook. If you are the FE/CRE then yes, if the logbook has the required experience, then revalidate the rating.
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: UK
is that an instructor carrying out the training flight for revalidation, doesn't have to sign the person's logbook.
AMC1 FCL-050 (4) instruction time: a summary of all time logged by an applicant for a licence or rating as flight instruction, instrument flight instruction, instrument ground time, etc., may be logged if certified by the appropriately rated or authorised instructor from whom it was received;
Joined: May 2009
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From: UK
The pilot being revalidated might have chosen to do an hour of tailwheel differences training for his/her "hour with an instructor". For all we know the debrief might have been the candidate saying "well, I'm never doing that again" or the instructor saying "another 20hrs and you'll have this tailwheel thing sorted!"
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From: UK
As 'this is my username' points out this is a 'Training Flight' requirement and many people will use it to try a new experience for the first time so competence is not necessarily expected.
However, in the rare instances that an Instructor deems that a Pilot they flew with is unsafe (to themselves and/or others) then I do not believe that they should complete the 'Revalidation by Experience'; and if offered the Pilot's logbook to sign they should also write in "further training recommended" (so that Examiners would also know to politely decline any request for 'Revalidation by Experience' based on that particular training flight).
Just because someone is authorised to take 'Administrative Action' on behalf of the CAA does not mean that they are mandated to do it if they don't want to.
However, in the rare instances that an Instructor deems that a Pilot they flew with is unsafe (to themselves and/or others) then I do not believe that they should complete the 'Revalidation by Experience'; and if offered the Pilot's logbook to sign they should also write in "further training recommended" (so that Examiners would also know to politely decline any request for 'Revalidation by Experience' based on that particular training flight).
Just because someone is authorised to take 'Administrative Action' on behalf of the CAA does not mean that they are mandated to do it if they don't want to.
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From: UK
What would I do?
If I was the instructor with revalidation privileges, the legal requirements are met, but the pilot has significant deficiences in his flying?
Sign the forms, and annotate the logbook with a statement along the lines of "flying standards poor, remedial instruction essential for safety" or words to that effect.
That seems to cover both the law and my conscience.
But, for all we know, that was the student's first ever tailwheel lesson and the groundloop was basically down to the instructor's failure to cover and take over control quickly enough - and he was man enough to admit it.
G
If I was the instructor with revalidation privileges, the legal requirements are met, but the pilot has significant deficiences in his flying?
Sign the forms, and annotate the logbook with a statement along the lines of "flying standards poor, remedial instruction essential for safety" or words to that effect.
That seems to cover both the law and my conscience.
But, for all we know, that was the student's first ever tailwheel lesson and the groundloop was basically down to the instructor's failure to cover and take over control quickly enough - and he was man enough to admit it.
G
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: UK
and annotate the logbook with a statement along the lines of "flying standards poor, remedial instruction essential for safety" or words to that effect.
Moderator
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From: UK
Surely the other way around? If his flying standards were poor and there was no formal record of my advising him to seek remedial training.
Okay, yes I can use my own records and provide them with a copy - and I do that for all training. But, where someone is dangerously weak and won't listen to advice - there's no good answer is there?
G
Okay, yes I can use my own records and provide them with a copy - and I do that for all training. But, where someone is dangerously weak and won't listen to advice - there's no good answer is there?
G
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From: The Home of the Gnomes
What right have you to make such an entry in a personal log book? You can certainly give the candidate advice, and refuse to rent them an aeroplane, but using a log book as a "training record" could come back to haunt you if the pilot was subsequently involved in an incident.
I don't know the circumstances of this specific event and wouldn't wish to guess but should I find myself in a position where I was not happy with the performance of the pilot seeking revalidation, they would be given the option of either me not signing anything (i.e. the pilot will then need to fly with someone else anyway in order to be revalidated) or putting a suitable comment, such as the previously mentioned "further training recommended". I don't have licence signing privileges but equally I would not want to put an examiner in the position of signing a licence on the basis that "Tay Cough was happy" when I wasn't.
I assure you a world of pain will befall any instructor who revalidates a pilot despite having had major doubts over that pilot's performance if that pilot subsequently becomes involved in an incident.
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From: Canada
I think this is a good example of what is legal vs what is right. If the purpose of the flight is to attain/maintain currency and the person demonstrates a clearly unsafe level of flying skill then I think, as an instructor, you have a moral obligation to document that.
The problem however is the situation is seldom black and white, where the pilot is clearly safe vs clearly unsafe. The much more common cundrum is how good is good enough ? That is there are significant skill deficits in multiple areas but no one thing so over the top you can say this person is clearly unsafe.
That is why I try never to do checkouts
The problem however is the situation is seldom black and white, where the pilot is clearly safe vs clearly unsafe. The much more common cundrum is how good is good enough ? That is there are significant skill deficits in multiple areas but no one thing so over the top you can say this person is clearly unsafe.
That is why I try never to do checkouts
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From: Cotswolds
As the legal requirement for revalidation by experience is 12 hrs... blah... and a 1hr flight with an instructor, arguably, if both you and the 'student' are still alive at the end of the 1 hr flight, the requirement has been met and thus you should sign all the necessary bits of paper!
No mention in the actual law of competence.
No mention in the actual law of competence.
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From: Oop North, UK
If you refused to sign for a training flight that the candidate had paid for, then the term fraud comes to mind.
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From: UK
But, where someone is dangerously weak and won't listen to advice - there's no good answer is there?
If you are appointed by the CAA to sign certificates of experience and the candidate has met the requirements and you refuse to sign, the candidate has the right to appeal under CAA Regulation 6.
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From: The Home of the Gnomes
... at which point the CAA is likely to investigate the circumstances of the appeal.
I agree that if the candidate has met the requirements, a logbook/licence should be signed. If not, it should be justifiable why not, in which case the instructor has nothing to fear from the CAA. In my book, "dangerously weak and won't listen to advice" could potentially be grounds for that justification.
Equally, I don't believe a revalidation flight should take place without it being made clear to the candidate that there may be circumstances where a signature will not result. Foxmoth makes a particularly valid point in this regard with reference to a new experience for the candidate, where more discretion can probably be exercised by the instructor, versus a familiar situation.
I agree that if the candidate has met the requirements, a logbook/licence should be signed. If not, it should be justifiable why not, in which case the instructor has nothing to fear from the CAA. In my book, "dangerously weak and won't listen to advice" could potentially be grounds for that justification.
Equally, I don't believe a revalidation flight should take place without it being made clear to the candidate that there may be circumstances where a signature will not result. Foxmoth makes a particularly valid point in this regard with reference to a new experience for the candidate, where more discretion can probably be exercised by the instructor, versus a familiar situation.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: England
And what about when a candidate presents his licence to an examiner with all the revalidation requirements met and the one hour dual signed in his logbook. The examiner signs it. He has no idea if he is safe or not.
The system is too complicated and doesnt work and it needs to be replaced with something that does.
The system is too complicated and doesnt work and it needs to be replaced with something that does.
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From: UK
As the legal requirement for revalidation by experience is 12 hrs... blah... and a 1hr flight with an instructor, arguably, if both you and the 'student' are still alive at the end of the 1 hr flight, the requirement has been met and thus you should sign all the necessary bits of paper!
If you are appointed by the CAA to sign certificates of experience and the candidate has met the requirements and you refuse to sign, the candidate has the right to appeal under CAA Regulation 6.
The candidate is perfectly able to approach other individuals (Examiners), or the CAA themselves, to get their Revalidation paperwork signed.
They could, possibly, put in a complaint to the CAA about the (lack of) action on the part of the Instructor but I seriously doubt it would be upheld - and may even lead to consequences for the candidate themselves.
Joined: Mar 2016
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From: Cotswolds
I say 'should' quite deliberately because all of the legal requirements for revalidation have been met and that is what the instructor is signing to say - he has checked that the necessary number of hours have been flown and that the 'applicant' has had a 1 hr flight with an instructor. Full-stop.
It is not up to the instructor (or the CAA) to 'gold plate' by adding their own personal requirements.
Debate.
It is not up to the instructor (or the CAA) to 'gold plate' by adding their own personal requirements.
Debate.
