Shortage of FI's in Scotland

[mad_jock]

Well I am hearing of 2 schools who are struggling because a lot of experienced FI's are all off to the airlines.

How's the rest of the UK doing?

Has there been a drop in numbers going through FIC's?

[taff_lightning]

Down here on the south coast we certainly seeing a drop in number going through the FIC.

Wouldn't be fair to say we're shortage of FI's as there are still plenty of guys around looking for work.

I am concerned however that if our good guys get poached, and I think they will, we'll struggle to replace them.

[Mach Jump]

Still quite a few instructors here in the middle of the UK looking MJ. Mostly ex. Oxford/CTC guys who can't find airline jobs, and have done instructor ratings. Let us know where they are short up north, and maybe they will be up for a change of scenery!


MJ

[mad_jock]

There back ground doesn't really fit with the way things are flown up north Mach Jump. Also as well shall we say there is cultural differences between north and south about what's counted as a days work.

And to be honest Scotland isn't that big in school terms so it should be relatively easy to find out by themselves . When I was looking for a FI job I got a sniff on Thursday that a job was going way up north. Friday lunch I was in the car and Sat I was interviewed and got it, under a year later I had 1000 hours in the log book. I suggest anyone that's hungry for a job does the same thing and gets there finger out and does something and turns up in person will be in a full time job by Friday next week.

The thread will more than likely be pulled if I mention schools due to advertising rules. And to be honest it wasn't my intention to act as a recruiting agency. It was just the first time I had heard of lessons being cancelled due to lack of instructors since 2004.

Now that's interesting to me for 2 reasons.

1. does that means that quite a few are moving on (obviously that's happened)

2. Are the numbers going through FIC dropping from previously very over supplied levels.

I am concerned however that if our good guys get poached, and I think they will, we'll struggle to replace them

This seems to be a recurring statement. Maybe there isn't such a cultural difference with what's a proper days work or there are just not enough instructors who actually want to be instructors out there.

[ShyTorque]

All will be well once Scotland gains it's independence. All the errant local instructors will rush home.

[mad_jock]

Shy don't start that ****e.

Contrary to how some believe there is no problems with any nationality working up north.

The FI that took over from me was from the west country. Apart from certain language issues ie "I am away off for some fud" which means I believe I am away for lunch in west country speak. Means something completely different up North. They didn't tell him for about 6 months mind. He did his 13 months and moved on to a TP job just like I did.

The requirement is for a sense of humour and inter personal skills. ie being a human with your students and not being a prat with airs and graces of a sky god. And just to make the whole experience fun even if its at your expense.

The Scottish punter in someway's is very easy, but if you start thinking your special they will slap you down harder than you imagine usually by ripping the piss. So if your some sort of special petal that expects "respect" without earning it your in for a shock.

[mad_jock]

Well well, I am getting confirmed numbers now.

That's 8 Fi's off to their first airline job. Well done lads and lasses.

And another 3 are interviewing.

Another rumour is there is now a shortage of FII's as well as one of them is one of the 8.

Mods this isn't just from one school its an area wide issue.

[Unusual Attitude]

Seems to be a mix of circumstance MJ,

I know some of the people your talking about who have got jobs which is great to see finally but I was also having a pint on Sat with a 2500hr FI who has had to take a job outside of flying as he could no longer afford to survie.

Been a couple gone that way of late, the airlines may be finally taking some out of the system but the usual poor T&C's and lack of flying for FI's right now is probably taking just as many.

Still lots of fresh FI's coming through the system though and I know 2 more local chaps doing the course right now.

PM me if you want the goss....

Regards

UA

[mad_jock]

not being nasty but 2500hrs there is something stopping them getting an airline job.

[ROTORVATION]

Desperately short in the South East / Essex., both FW & RW. I've been looking for someone to take 40-50 hours a month. Still am as it happens... Don't know where they've all gone.

[Ops and Mops]

From what I can gather, certain schools don't help themselves by promising the world to get guys in and the p1$$ing on them once they are in the door by treating them unfairly and unequally. It also doesn't help that some also give a very elitist/aloof image until the point that they are in the dwang and then wonder why folks won't go the extra mile to help them out. Quid quo pro.

Perhaps a little more of give and take rather than convincing new FI's that these schools are doing them a favour and that they should be grateful for what they can get would help. After all the FI is the major customer facing element of any flying training organisation, and a motivated and well looked after FI is likely to do more for himself and the school than one that pays to go to work for one 45min trip a week versus the school "golden child" that gets all the flying. Reputations have been made and destroyed this way, and schools seem mystified why they are not flooded with applicants to make the big move to the frozen north.

I must stress that this is not reflective of all flying training orgs in Scotland, but there are some that need to modernise their outlook and give some consideration as to who is helping who. I suspect that Scotland is not in isolation here but the further south you are, the less it appears to be tolerated or taken as the norm.

I think most wannabe's accept that pay is not the attraction as an FI, but paying for the privilege of being exploited is not a very attractive deal for anyone. At least when Ryanair do it the cadets eventually do get a positive balance in their bank account for a short time each month!

[Ampage]

Is there really that much of a shortage? At Cranfield there seems to be more instructors than there are students.. however on nice days they do get rather busy..

Perhaps you don't pay them enough

Any of your PPL instructors salaried or is that pretty much unheard of? Excuse my ignorance on the subject, I am just curious because I've always liked the idea of teaching people how to fly. I'd be teaching for the enjoyment of flying & the reward of teaching, not just to get to the airlines, I have no interest in sitting in a jet, pushing buttons all day long.

[mad_jock]

There is multiple ways of paying FI's

Straight flight hours.
Retainer and flight hours.
Different rates for different things ie Trial flights, PPL, Night ratings, IMC

You can be on the books on PAYE or self employed

Part time they tend just to invoice.

I was on 400 retainer and 10 and hour flying about 900 a year PAYE which worked out about 14k back in 2003 full time.

The part time guys were on 15 quid an hour invoiced no retainer.

With a dual rate on a tommy including landings of 97 pounds.

I don't have a clue what the current rates are.

[mad_jock]

At the risk of kicking things off which is not my intention. I might add its been years since I have been involved with flying school politics or even know what's happening in Scotland or the current bunch of characters.

I have run the ops desk in my past and have been accused of having a golden bollocks special FI.

The fact is he wasn't, he was just there when ever he was needed. He was hungry for the hours. The punters liked him and he put the effort in to the trial flights and turned them into PPL's. Never needed to be told to get the aircraft out and get them fuelled it was just done. Punter walked in the door early doors and you turned round and he was their plane ready and itching to go.

If you got that feeling which we all know that the punter was a good to convert yes I would stick them with him or do it myself because that was the best way of getting a PPL course out of them.

What some FI's don't get to hear is the punters that ask for change of instructor or wangle things so they come in on certain peoples days off. Then ask to be kept with a different one as it there right as they are paying hard earned cash to learn to fly.

So I agree there may very well be some unfairness but to be honest its usually in my experience been because certain FI's need to have a good look in the mirror and sort their own **** out.

Its usually those FI's that are going to multiple escape party's of FI's who are less experienced than themselves and have been in the game for a shorter period.

Now I am not saying this is either fair or applies to everyone or every school. But from what I saw it holds true alot of the time.

[Ops and Mops]

MJ,

Whilst much of what you say cannot be argued against, I would suggest that for every FI that needs to "sort their own **** out", there will be a CFI, ops manager or owner that needs to do the same.

The issue of customers routinely wanting to change from a "bag egg" is easily managed through robust standardisation, acceptance checks, supervision and performance monitoring. Avoiding the situation as you suggest is doing themselves, the customer and the FI in question a great dis-service and lacks integrity on the part of the school. Looking in the mirror very rarely shows up the problem; outside input is needed.

Where the unfairness comes in is an example scenario of two full time instructors, both restricted, joining within weeks of each other but one is given priority on hours ahead of the other as "he/she was first". This is particularly bad when the instructor losing out is the one getting the requests from customers to do more flying with them as the customers find it easier to learn and get more from their flying as he/she appears to take an interest in the customer's teaching and progression rather than the amount of hours accrued in his/her log book.

Maybe the line between each scenario is a fine one, however I think that many flying schools could do well spending some time looking inwardly at HOW they deliver their training/product to their customers and looking after their staff rather than always looking outward at solely fulfilling their own needs. Adair's leadership model is quite apt in the example of a flying school developing both students and instructors.

Having said all that, there are also just some total knob heads in the business who should be summarily sacked or have their approvals withdrawn, all of whom we are seemingly powerless to stop....!

[mad_jock]

Whilst much of what you say cannot be argued against, I would suggest that for every FI that needs to "sort their own **** out", there will be a CFI, ops manager or owner that needs to do the same.

Agree

The issue of customers routinely wanting to change from a "bag egg" is easily managed through robust standardisation, acceptance checks, supervision and performance monitoring

If your ever in the position you will find out how hard it is. To get what you suggest. Even the big commercial schools struggle with that one.

is the one getting the requests from customers to do more flying with them

seems a bit strange to me as if a punter wants an instructor and there is a slot in the book that's where is goes.

however I think that many flying schools could do well spending some time looking inwardly at HOW they deliver their training/product to their customers

Every instructor would agree with you. But fundamentally its not the FI's train set. And you have two options 1. Shut up and crack on and make the best of a bad situation or 2. Get another job.

In most cases number 2 is the best option for everyone.

It doesn't change when you go to an airline. They can be heading towards destruction like an out of control train. Completely obvious to even the office cleaner but the management types won't change tracks. And sometimes your wrong and it continues on its way. I have been right twice and wrong once on that count. And I am about to be right on a third. I always went for option two when its obvious or they pissed me off to much.

some total knob heads in the business who should be summarily sacked or have their approvals withdrawn, all of whom we are seemingly powerless to stop....!

amen Brother.

I think a lot of it is either

1. The FI has come out of a responsible job and is used to being a mover and shaker. And now is back to being a resource who nobody really cares what their opinion is.

2. Its the first time the FI has had to do a hard graft job either their first job or away from an office environment. They still have the heads full of rubbish from school about how they should be treated and what there rights are or they are used to the complex office politics game which people just ignore and bulldozer there way through.

Its all good training for the airlines, if you can't hack it in a flying club you will be murdered in an airline as a FO. Which is why those that struggle with it in the club environment get bypassed when the recruitment slots come round.

Life isn't fair flying the line. Once you come to realise this you will always be unhappy if it a big issue for you.

[jessie05]

not being nasty but 2500hrs there is something stopping them getting an airline job.

Yes , MJ , i would love to agree and accept your statement , but i would say that this instructor was or is probably over 35 with 2500 hrs?

I have even more hours than that and have every instructor rating that the CAA can put on your licence , BUT I am late 40s and no airline wants you at that age.

In fact when I applied to Ryanairs recruiter OAA , they actually spent the time and money to call me via phone in Germany to tell me that they thought I was a good candidate for them , but RYR said no thanks!!

In the first few seconds of that call I actually thought i was going to be invited for a selection…..to be then cruelly deflated!!!

But , its good to hear that there maybe a upcoming shortage of fully qualified FIs in Blighty , as I wouldn't mind moving back at some stage!!

regards

Jessie

[Ops and Mops]

Its all good training for the airlines, if you can't hack it in a flying club you will be murdered in an airline as a FO. Which is why those that struggle with it in the club environment get bypassed when the recruitment slots come round.

Life isn't fair flying the line. Once you come to realise this you will always be unhappy if it a big issue for you.

I think anyone that thinks that flying for an airline will mean career utopia has to be very short sighted, blinkered and/or naive. The same is true for any walk of life, even if you work for yourself.

On the contrary to your statement, I know of several airline TRI/TRE and senior captains (including major carriers) that did not put up with being shat on by a flying club ops mgr trying to feather their own nest and it did not seem to hamper their career. In fact, they are now the ones that have a good working relationship with crewing, and while crewing will always try to do whatever it takes to make the roster work, a robust but polite conversation normally elicits a moment of realisation in an air of mutual respect. It's how people interact in their work environment rather than what they will "shut up and crack on with" that goes a long way to teamwork and leadership. If one does "shut up and crack on" for too long then that will eventually lead to option 2 in any case.

Flying clubs rarely have the power and influence over the airline selection market that they once did or that people believe they still hold; this includes integrated schools! Those that do have this power rarely have to bang on about the relationships they have with such airlines, and never seem to take long to fill any gaps.

I think we are ultimately singing from the same hymn sheet here, but perhaps we have just had different experiences/outlooks along the long and winding road of flying, and in common with other human beings, solve problems from different directions. I, for one, no longer have to accept that it's unfair on the line!

[mad_jock]

Flying clubs rarely have the power and influence over the airline selection market that they once did or that people believe they still hold

Maybe further south. Also it might not be the school who backballs them it could also be a member who more than likely had never been in a cockpit with them. And had every intention of it never occurring hence the blackballing

And it depends on who you fall out with, sometimes its seen as an outstanding display of airmanship to tell an FS owner to ram their job where the sun doesn't shine. Some CP's dig it others don't. It worked for me!

[Above The Clouds]

I let all mine expire, UK FI single engine piston, multi engine piston, TRI/TRE sim and aircraft on a jet because I couldn't be ar@ed with all the EASA nonsense that's involved, sadly others have probably done the same which doesn't bode well for the future of instructing but one day the CAA might wake up and smell the coffee.