concerning spinning
Engine stopping in spins
I've had this happen in several different Bulldogs, usually when going to the right. Recovery is normal and the engine usually starts easily in the dive-out (if slightly delayed to get the prop to windmill) or when the tit is pressed.
(An aside: I was in a theatrical costume store earlier today (don't ask!) and the lady suggested getting some "titty tape" ... apparently it's one of those secrets that the fairer sex normally keep to themselves
)
I once had the engine in a starter-less Jungmann stop dead at the top of a rather low stall turn over an empty but short airfield - I held the vertical until there was very little of it left but the engine only started to windmill when I pulled-out. It was all perfectly controlled but apparently the roaring and low pull-out from a silent vertical dive was rather impressive.
HFD
(edited to fix typos)
(An aside: I was in a theatrical costume store earlier today (don't ask!) and the lady suggested getting some "titty tape" ... apparently it's one of those secrets that the fairer sex normally keep to themselves
)I once had the engine in a starter-less Jungmann stop dead at the top of a rather low stall turn over an empty but short airfield - I held the vertical until there was very little of it left but the engine only started to windmill when I pulled-out. It was all perfectly controlled but apparently the roaring and low pull-out from a silent vertical dive was rather impressive.
HFD
(edited to fix typos)
RTN11: "Also thinking about inadvertent spins in a type not cleared for intentional spins, and the outcome being a very steep spiral. Recovery is simple enough, but I'd imagine it would be very easy to pull too hard and over stress something. "
A very common error with spiral dive recoveries is allowing the aircraft to pitch-up while rolling level; as an FI you will understand why this is a bad idea but studes seem not to. It's important to educate studes that the tendency to pitch-up (caused by being in excess of the trimmed speed) must be resisted while rolling and then allowed to happen at a controlled rate when the rolling is finished. By getting them to do this intuitively there's a fair chance that the wings will remain attached
HFD
A very common error with spiral dive recoveries is allowing the aircraft to pitch-up while rolling level; as an FI you will understand why this is a bad idea but studes seem not to. It's important to educate studes that the tendency to pitch-up (caused by being in excess of the trimmed speed) must be resisted while rolling and then allowed to happen at a controlled rate when the rolling is finished. By getting them to do this intuitively there's a fair chance that the wings will remain attached
HFD
Personally I think, in general, flight training over overemphasizes the spin entry and recovery and underemphasizes spin avoidance.
The accident sadly shows that most inadvertent spins occur at low level and no amount of spin recovery training would have made any difference as there was simply insufficent height to regain controlled flight. In Canada the requirement to demonstrate spin entry and recovery was removed from the flight test. A spin lesson is still required but I use it to show what happens if all the warning signs are missed. But the bottom line is simple. The airplane can not spin if yaw is controlled in the stall. Using the rudder to control yaw must be an automatic part of the stall recovery and occur at the same time as the nose is positively lowered and full power applied.
Similarly recognition of the slow flight regime is required in order or avoid stalling.
So if you get into an inadvertant spin then you were IMO stupid times three.
First for inadvertantly getting into the slow flight regime, second by letting the aircraft stall, and third by not controlling yaw so that the aircraft departed into a spin.
With respect to damaging aircraft in spin training I have seen two C 152's with bent horizontal stabilizer spars. Both were the result of a spin going into a spiral dive followed by an aggressive pull out at high speed.
One good trick is to not have the student leave the trim at the cruise setting when entering a spin. If the aircraft is trimmed for slow flight and it spirals out
the aircraft will try to regain the trimmed airspeed which will be much slower than the speed out the bottom of a spiral dive. This will cause a strong pitch up force on the control wheel and IMO contributed to the tail damage described.
When doing a walk around I always have an extra good look at the horizontal stab as that is what is likely to be bent if the aircraft was abused.
The accident sadly shows that most inadvertent spins occur at low level and no amount of spin recovery training would have made any difference as there was simply insufficent height to regain controlled flight. In Canada the requirement to demonstrate spin entry and recovery was removed from the flight test. A spin lesson is still required but I use it to show what happens if all the warning signs are missed. But the bottom line is simple. The airplane can not spin if yaw is controlled in the stall. Using the rudder to control yaw must be an automatic part of the stall recovery and occur at the same time as the nose is positively lowered and full power applied.
Similarly recognition of the slow flight regime is required in order or avoid stalling.
So if you get into an inadvertant spin then you were IMO stupid times three.
First for inadvertantly getting into the slow flight regime, second by letting the aircraft stall, and third by not controlling yaw so that the aircraft departed into a spin.
With respect to damaging aircraft in spin training I have seen two C 152's with bent horizontal stabilizer spars. Both were the result of a spin going into a spiral dive followed by an aggressive pull out at high speed.
One good trick is to not have the student leave the trim at the cruise setting when entering a spin. If the aircraft is trimmed for slow flight and it spirals out
the aircraft will try to regain the trimmed airspeed which will be much slower than the speed out the bottom of a spiral dive. This will cause a strong pitch up force on the control wheel and IMO contributed to the tail damage described.
When doing a walk around I always have an extra good look at the horizontal stab as that is what is likely to be bent if the aircraft was abused.
You know, I'll respectfully disagree on this. Both deserve appropriate emphasis.
The situation awareness, comfort and confidence derived from experience with oddball flight attitudes and dynamics are certainly worthwhile. I would, at least personally, credit the training of intentional spin entries with having been able to avoid ever entering one inadvertently.
The situation awareness, comfort and confidence derived from experience with oddball flight attitudes and dynamics are certainly worthwhile. I would, at least personally, credit the training of intentional spin entries with having been able to avoid ever entering one inadvertently.
The place to learn about "odd ball flight attitudes" IMO, is a basic aerobatic course taught by an aerobatic instructor who is going to know way more about flying in the more interesting corners of the flight envelope than your average PPL instructor.
The deliberate spin is an aerobatic manoever so I tell any PPL student if he/she wants to learn about spinning I will be happy to teach them as part of my introduction to aerobatics course.
I got into aerobatics after I got my instructor rating because I was uncomfortable with unusual attitudes. By the third lesson I realized it did not matter if the aircraft was upside down or pointed straight up, or in any other possible attitude, it was still fully controllable. After that I was hooked and went on to get my Aerobatics Instructor rating and I still teach aerobatics
Personally I think every instructor should do at least an introductory aerobatics course.
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The problem is how you enter a deliberate spin bears no relation to how you are most likely to enter an inadvertent spin.
thanks for all the replies
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A descending turn is adding energy into the aeroplane, so it is a little harder to achieve the stall.
Complacency....
A good exercise is to get up to more then 3000 feet and simulate a too slow, too low, too late, base to final turn. Start 10 knots below normal final speed and as you simulate overshooting the turn to the final approach use a lot of inside rudder( ie rudder in the direction of the turn) to force the nose around and simultaneously add a bit of back stick like you would if you were too low. Even a docile little spamcan will flick to the inside of the turn with very little warning. However instant opposite rudder and forward stick followed by full power will let you recover quickly. This demonstrates two important lessons.
1) The danger of unbalanced steep turns, especially at low airspeeds and
2) Aggressive prompt rudder will control the yaw and stop the developing spin before it can start.
1) The danger of unbalanced steep turns, especially at low airspeeds and
2) Aggressive prompt rudder will control the yaw and stop the developing spin before it can start.
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This sounds like a good exercise - a more aggressive version of the "base-to-final turn stall" taught in Ex. 10 (2).
Most of the time the aircraft does not drop a wing in that exercise, and recovery is not a big deal - this gives the wrong impression. Perhaps it should be taught ensuring that a wing actually drops, if necessary by deliberate skidding, so the student can not only practice the correct recovery action (rudder to stop further yaw) but also "gets" that a stall in this turn is best avoided altogether...
Most of the time the aircraft does not drop a wing in that exercise, and recovery is not a big deal - this gives the wrong impression. Perhaps it should be taught ensuring that a wing actually drops, if necessary by deliberate skidding, so the student can not only practice the correct recovery action (rudder to stop further yaw) but also "gets" that a stall in this turn is best avoided altogether...
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Engine stopping in a spin, plus how easy is can be to inadvertently enter a different spin mode to the intended mode.
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
From a student's perspective, I have a slight nervousness of spins on account of attending a fatality as initial response volunteer fire crew in which an aeroplane stalled and spun in. I was at the pre-solo stage at the time and it killed my confidence.
So, when I finally got the latter parts of my PPL training, I specifically asked to cover spins. That lesson was one of the best flights I've ever had, if nothing else it showed me how good an aeroplane a C152 is. Perhaps that's why I'm so loyal to them.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if your students are willing and interested to try spins, do it. Teach it well, teach it safe, and I'm sure you'll turn out slightly better pilots as a result.
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
From a student's perspective, I have a slight nervousness of spins on account of attending a fatality as initial response volunteer fire crew in which an aeroplane stalled and spun in. I was at the pre-solo stage at the time and it killed my confidence.
So, when I finally got the latter parts of my PPL training, I specifically asked to cover spins. That lesson was one of the best flights I've ever had, if nothing else it showed me how good an aeroplane a C152 is. Perhaps that's why I'm so loyal to them.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if your students are willing and interested to try spins, do it. Teach it well, teach it safe, and I'm sure you'll turn out slightly better pilots as a result.
FWJC: I couldn't get that link to work but I suspect it's the "interesting" spin and arrival in a Tipsy Nipper, in which case this link will work
I think most "senior" FIs would want to teach their studes how to recover from a spin, but sadly it's no-longer part of the syllabus (hopefully this won't be a cue for the usual extended discussion and gnashing of angst) so it's only those people who ask that will get. My only comment to those who want to ask is to ask an aeros FI who truly is comfortable in strange attitudes rather than someone who has only just got their ticket - it will be better for both of you.
If you enjoyed your spinning (and most people do, once they overcome the brainwashing and bar room nonsense that they've heard) then I suggest having another trip in a slightly more capable aircraft than a 152, at least a Bulldog but preferably something like a Cap10 that's easy to fly and can nicely demo spins from just about anything - and either way up. You could look at spins from sideslips, over-ruddered turns, vertical, inverted ... the skies the limit
HFD
(I was going to edit the "gnashing of angst", but on reflection I rather like it)
If you enjoyed your spinning (and most people do, once they overcome the brainwashing and bar room nonsense that they've heard) then I suggest having another trip in a slightly more capable aircraft than a 152, at least a Bulldog but preferably something like a Cap10 that's easy to fly and can nicely demo spins from just about anything - and either way up. You could look at spins from sideslips, over-ruddered turns, vertical, inverted ... the skies the limit
HFD
(I was going to edit the "gnashing of angst", but on reflection I rather like it)
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High flung dung, thanks for that! It's a problem with mobile devices.
I agree with the comments regarding CPL training, and FI courses. Trouble is there are people who aren't comfortable with unusual attitudes, including instructors. They'll "survive" that part with a pass and avoid it ever after. Plus I have a feeling that, from a Commercial perspective at least, airlines are less interested in the ability to nail a spin recovery on axis, than in the ability to fit into a procedure regime which probably doesn't involve deliberate spinning.
I also agree with the suggestion for further training. So far, spun and aerobated PittsS2, Tiger Moth and Chipmunk. More S2 time to follow. For me a good way to beat the demon is to know and love the demon, but I'm lucky to have the opportunity to do this. I did the AOPA Basic Aeros course a while back. At the end of every sortie we would use a spin to lose additional height to rejoin the circuit. Yes, just a spam can, but still better than nothing.
I'm very glad to see instructors discussing this and sharing thoughts. Thanks!
I agree with the comments regarding CPL training, and FI courses. Trouble is there are people who aren't comfortable with unusual attitudes, including instructors. They'll "survive" that part with a pass and avoid it ever after. Plus I have a feeling that, from a Commercial perspective at least, airlines are less interested in the ability to nail a spin recovery on axis, than in the ability to fit into a procedure regime which probably doesn't involve deliberate spinning.
I also agree with the suggestion for further training. So far, spun and aerobated PittsS2, Tiger Moth and Chipmunk. More S2 time to follow. For me a good way to beat the demon is to know and love the demon, but I'm lucky to have the opportunity to do this. I did the AOPA Basic Aeros course a while back. At the end of every sortie we would use a spin to lose additional height to rejoin the circuit. Yes, just a spam can, but still better than nothing.
I'm very glad to see instructors discussing this and sharing thoughts. Thanks!
Last edited by fwjc; 12th Mar 2012 at 20:23. Reason: Typo
That's all good stuff - spread the word!
One slight caution (which may not be necessary as you've probably been well taught): if you've used the Beggs-Mueller recovery (power off, hands off, push the pedals, etc) in the Pitts then please don't assume it will work in any aircraft, there are some in which it doesn't. Always know and use the manufacturer's recommended recovery procedure, or if this slips your mind use the "certification" spin recovery procedure (power off, rudder opposite yaw, stick ...) that you will certainly have been taught.
If you haven't looked at inverted spins yet then it's worth doing so (with an appropriate FI and aircraft) at least once so that particular demon is known, and maybe, with time, loved.
HFD
One slight caution (which may not be necessary as you've probably been well taught): if you've used the Beggs-Mueller recovery (power off, hands off, push the pedals, etc) in the Pitts then please don't assume it will work in any aircraft, there are some in which it doesn't. Always know and use the manufacturer's recommended recovery procedure, or if this slips your mind use the "certification" spin recovery procedure (power off, rudder opposite yaw, stick ...) that you will certainly have been taught.
If you haven't looked at inverted spins yet then it's worth doing so (with an appropriate FI and aircraft) at least once so that particular demon is known, and maybe, with time, loved.
HFD
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Yes, I note that in the back of the Beggs-Mueller book it states very clearly that it has been tried in lots of aircraft in which the method works, but that it doesn't work in everything. The classic one it doesn't work in is the humble C152!
Re inverted spinning, wilco.
Re inverted spinning, wilco.
