easy307

Is it possible to provide ab-initio training using a group owned aircraft ?

I obtained my FI(R) 2 years ago.
I have done about 60 hours instructing:- ppl holder friends and ex 4a/b to friends/family.
I am never going to be able to obtain / commit to a flying school job due to work commitments. I would love to remove my restriction, but will need 25 solo signoffs.
I have several friends who would like to obtain a ppl, and I have a share in a suitable training aircraft. Can I use this plane for abinitio if I obtain the correct insurance?
Would the local flying club oversee my instruction if paid for their services?
Or are they likely to tell me to get lost.
I wouldn't be poaching business as the students wouldn't want to obtain their PPLs without my involvement.

RTN11

see here

http://www.pprune.org/flying-instruc...-aircraft.html

Try approaching the flying school yourself and say you would like their supervision and aircraft to teach your own students on a freelance/self employed basis. As long as the flying school are paid for their aircraft hire and supervising instructor's time, there shouldn't be an issue. This is quite common for instructors teaching IMC or aerobatics.

easy307

Thanks RTN,
The link is pretty old (2007). However, I found this AIC which implies it would be ok to instuct ab-initio in a group owned plane. Does everyone agree?

AIC: W 001/2011
27-JAN-2011

Administration

"2.1 Since the adoption of Regulation (EC) No. 2042/2003, EASA aircraft have been subject to European Continuing Airworthiness
Regulations (commonly known as Part M). Operation under Part M allows private aircraft to be used for remunerated activity, provided that
it is not a commercial air transport operation or an operation that the State requires to be issued with a certificate.

2.2 Therefore, individuals are permitted to pay an instructor for training in their own private solely-owned or jointly-owned EASA aircraft."

So if possible to instruct in my own jointly owned plane, would a flying club be likely to supervise my training?
The cost to my friends would be the usual group hourly rate and whatever supervising fee the local flying club would deem appropriate (my instruction would be free).
Has this sort of thing been done before?

Duchess_Driver

Just a quick thought....but what do the other group members feel about your proposal?

BEagle

easy307, you need to check the restrictions associated with your FI rating!

Also, the AIC to which you refer concerns an aircraft owned by the student, not the instructor!

easy307

Duchess Driver - Pleased that utilisation will go up, and hopefully flying will become cheaper for everyone. I guess there might be concern regarding increased wear and tear eg heavy landings, PFLs, lots of circuits.

easy307

Beagle -

"The privileges are restricted to carrying out
under the supervision of FI(A) approved for this purpose:

a. Flight instruction for the issue of the JAR-FCL
PPL(A)"

This is what I am talking about. Carrying out the above with supervision from the local flying club in my own jointly owned plane.
Have I missed your point ?

easy307

"Also, the AIC to which you refer concerns an aircraft owned by the student, not the instructor! "

Oh, I think that would scupper me.
What if I got the student to buy a share? (they are pretty cheap)

S-Works

What on earth are you thinking!

Go fly for a school, get the experience, get unrestricted and then start your own RTF.

Never seen such a hair brained scheme in my life. The very fact that you are seeking advice on an Internet forum about thus shows you don't have the experience to be doing it.

easy307

"Go fly for a school, get the experience, get unrestricted and then start your own RTF."

I want to do the same thing as above, but fly my plane and pay the flying club to supervise me.

Aware

I would agree with Bose - x gain experience, it s tough working for a group without appropriate supervision. I have just been through process of looking into teaching on group ac. The AIC mentioned earlier states no training for initial rating in privately owned ac. Revalidation is fine, but being a FIR its not clever to do this as you need back up and experience, Ive been instructing 10 years and I still feel the need for a CFI around for support guidance and when difficult situations arise. Instructing has many pitfalls, and it is a huge responsibility teaching people to fly , 60 hours is not enough experience.

If you've got time to teach in group ac, you will find time to teach at your local school, where an experienced CFI can assist you, after you,ve built experience, certainly go and have a go at setting up your own RTF.

Enjoy your instructing, I work in an unrelated biz Monday to Thursday, and instruct Fridays it works well, and just found a new school to work for having had to leave a school that closed so there is work out there.

easy307

Thanks for the replies everyone.
I will give up on my idea.

easy307

"The AIC mentioned earlier states no training for initial rating in privately owned ac"

Just a follow up, I can't see anything in the AIC to stop ab initio in a jointly owned aircraft.


http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2011-01-27.pdf

NATS | AIS - Home

Point 4 relates to non-EASA aircraft only:-
"Jointly-owned non-EASA aircraft

Note:

Training for the initial issue of an NPPL, PPL, CPL, IMC Rating, Instrument Rating or other 'ab initio' training is not permitted. The
intention is to allow individuals to pay for training that enables them to regain currency, renew a licence, learn a new skill (such as

short field landings), become familiar with a new type etc."

Genghis the Engineer

Here's a model that can work - I know it can work, because I'm in the middle of such a scheme.

Syndicate an aeroplane (with a suitable CofA permitting instruction) but bedded within a friendly flying club.

Rules work along these lines (for us):

- All joint owners have to be members of the club, meeting club rules
- Instruction on the aeroplane is under supervision of the club/CFI
- When the owners aren't flying the aeroplane, it's leased to the club for the club's use at their rates
- When the owners want instruction, they just pay syndicate flying rates, then the club's "instruction in own aircraft" rates - which saves them about £40/hr.
- By "gentleman's agreement" instructors with shares in the aeroplane get first dibs on instruction in it, and certainly have the ability to bring our own students into the club on our aeroplane.

The particular club I belong to has three aeroplanes (two four seaters and a two seater) run in this manner. The one I have a share in has two instructors amongst the owners - myself (a CRI, so I tend to do conversion/refresher training) and a much more experienced instructor (an FI/IRI so he tends to do PPLs and IMCs).

It works really well, saves a lot of money for the owners, gives quite a nice route for inexperienced instructors like me to get into the system, and provides good oversight by an experienced club CFI.

G

S-Works

Thats a pretty good system that you describe there Ghenghis. I assume the aircraft is the equivalent of the old public transport regarding maintanance and engine life in order to be leased into the club?

The OP is of course going to have the problem of finding a club as enlightened as yours that will allow effectively a competitor to the club and its instructors under the blanket of the clubs approval. I would not let you do what you describe under our approvals as I could not be assured that you would meet our standarisation and quality requirements but as overseeing CFI I would still be responsible for you. You will find a lot more schools that will give you the same answer. As they will basically see you trying to ride on the back of their approvals without having done the legwork.

To the OP, don't underestimate the responsibility and difficulty in teaching ab-initio as an inexperienced instructor. It is probably one of the most challenging things that you will encounter as an Instructor and you will benefit greatly from the oversight of an experienced CFI and being around other more experienced Instructors.

AS I said earlier, get the experience on the staff of a school and get the restriction removed then spread your wings. Once you are unrestricted you will be in a position to start your own RTF and do what you want.

mrmum

Hi Easy,
Although some of the above replies a worded a little harshly, they are generally good advice and I'm sure the posters are intending to be helpful.

Having read the AIC, White 1/2011, to answer your question in post #3, it would appear that a person can pay an instructor to be trained in an EASA aircraft. But that's not at all the same thing as it being a good idea for you to undertake such a venture.
What type is the group aircraft you're considering using? Is it something common that flying schools will have experience with?
Also, as BEagle pointed out earlier, the student must own a share, not you.
Have you looked into the costs of changing the insurance from "group" to "training" use and what that may cost?

So, while it all seems to be theoretically possible, as RTN11 advised, by far the simpler and more sensible way, is to approach a school, bring your own students, but use their aircraft/approvals/supervision, especially given your experience.
If you walked into my school, I would seriously try and convince you to use our aircraft. However, if you were really insistent on trying to use yours, I'd look into it and consider it, maybe. So, by all means go out and approach a few flying schools locally and see what happens, you're no worse off for asking.
I'd be really surprised if you couldn't find somewhere to do this for you, one way or another. Where you will have some difficulty, is I think getting back into teaching the whole syllabus, 2 years after your course, with only a few hours of "check flights and TLs" effectively. You need to find somewhere with a good and willing supervising FI, they will of course also have to fly with your students to authorise first solo etc.

Further to your accumulated 60 hours of "instructing". I'm not sure that you can legally be doing that, as LASORS states (my red/bold) a FI(R) cannot do anything unless they are under the supervision of an approved FI.

Genghis the Engineer

That is correct.

When I or the other instructor in the syndicate teach on our aeroplane, we're under supervision of the CFI, working to his standards, using his training records, and he flew with and approved us before we were allowed to teach on it; and the club charges something for all this - you get the picture.

And everybody agrees to work to the club FOB as if they were normal renters. The only two real differences for syndicate members are (a) much cheaper flying, and (b) no real restrictions on how much or little we fly it in any booking (apart from a maximum half day per weekend per member limit, unless agreed by the syndicate and club, which is to ensure some revenue at weekends for the flying school).

It works, and I doubt you'd be uncomfortable with it Bose.

Yes, it is a very enlightened club and I enjoy being part of it. It's small, but friendly and competent.

G

S-Works

Who was your supervising FI and RTF/FTO?

Maybe they would be the person to approach for advice.

easy307

Having read all the posts, I really have decided to give up on my idea.
Although it is nice to hear of a workable solution!

Regarding this:-
Restrictions: The privileges are restricted to carrying out
under the supervision of FI(A) approved for this purpose

I have never been sure how an "FI(A) approved for this purpose " is defined ?
There is a very experienced instructor in our group who has been "supervising" me. He is however not affiliated with any training facility.

The plane is already being used for IMC courses using flying club instructors for other group members.

madlandrover

If he isn't nominated by an RF or FTO to supervise instructors, then he is not approved for that purpose - and ought to know that really.