Unfair treatment of student
I hope someone gets to do a good inspection of the broken noseleg bracket. As mentioned before, it could have been prior damage, or simply a fatigued component which chose that moment to give way. The CFI's aggressive attitude might be hiding guilt of a factor he was aware of.
BTW did anyone see 'The Apprentice' last week? The winning team were awarded flying lessons, and the landing in a PA28(?) they showed, looked a candidate for a nose leg removal. I can only assume the student released the back pressure part way through the flare.
BTW did anyone see 'The Apprentice' last week? The winning team were awarded flying lessons, and the landing in a PA28(?) they showed, looked a candidate for a nose leg removal. I can only assume the student released the back pressure part way through the flare.
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I'm not a lawyer but could it be argued that there is a contract (either implied or perhaps a written contract in more organised schools) between the school and the student, the contract being to teach the student to fly to a level where he or she is fit to do the flight test. Just curious to know if the school could be held to be in breach of contract by throwing the student out. If it was an implied contract there are unlikely to be any written conditions to cover such a scenario.
A/C owners & flying training organisations are quite happy to take the profits when all is well, and they should stand for the losses when, despite everyone's best efforts, an incident such as this occurs. If you rent out your plane for ab-initio training, you must expect it will be flown by very inexperienced pilots, who will occasionally make expensive mistakes.
Why..in the name of everything green...would the school/club take the brunt of the expenses?
That is what you carry insurance for and that is why the renter/student should carry additional insurance to cover the deductible.
If YOU damage a rental car do you let the rental company take the loss?
That will be the day.
I am suspecting we are not being told the whole story here.
The supervising instructor put in on this forum, why exactly?
The school/club as the sole right to ban somebody after a mishap.
It may have been the last straw in an ever escalating relationship.
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Yes the supervising instructor started this thread.
Yes the owner has the right to ban anyone.
No there has not been any bad relationship.
It is a small club and not hard up, infact they have bought a new aircraft already
The reason I am upset is the way the situation has been handled. The student has paid a lot of money for his training up till now appox 20 odd hours flying. In a time when he needed support because he felt awful about what he had done he was told that he was not welcome anymore.
The CFI whom you would expect to be the first person to help him get over this has done nothing at all, all because the owner who to be fair has not a lot of experience in avaition has made this decision with out any consultation with the flying staff.
Anyway I just wanted to get everyones thoughts and thank you for all your comments.To round things up I went up with the student on Sunday and he is keen to carry on with his PPL.
Yes the owner has the right to ban anyone.
No there has not been any bad relationship.
It is a small club and not hard up, infact they have bought a new aircraft already
The reason I am upset is the way the situation has been handled. The student has paid a lot of money for his training up till now appox 20 odd hours flying. In a time when he needed support because he felt awful about what he had done he was told that he was not welcome anymore.
The CFI whom you would expect to be the first person to help him get over this has done nothing at all, all because the owner who to be fair has not a lot of experience in avaition has made this decision with out any consultation with the flying staff.
Anyway I just wanted to get everyones thoughts and thank you for all your comments.To round things up I went up with the student on Sunday and he is keen to carry on with his PPL.
Last edited by ORBITAL; 5th Jul 2011 at 19:21.
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B2N2
In my earlier post (No 14 in this thread) I said:
Even a short explanation from Orbital (the instructor who started the thread) as to why he did not feel it was appropriate to publish the name of either the club or the CFI would have helped credibility. After all Orbital says he's ceased working for the club and is still in contact with the student, so it should not damage his employment, and may even stop the CFI potentially damaging Orbital's long term reputation as an instructor.
After all Orbital felt strongly enough to start a thread about this situation, I can't understand why - what did Orbital want to achieve?
It all seems very wishy washy, at the moment I suspect that someone is using the forum in a personal dispute rather than in a genuine attempt to enlighten, help and educate everyone.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe there will be a bit more detail, maybe even the student might contribute and tell us what happened. Time will tell
In my earlier post (No 14 in this thread) I said:
"Frankly I do wonder if there is more to this than meets the eye, it's surprising that the name of the training organisation has not been published, it's not libel IF what has been printed is true".
The fact that the instructor who raised the initial post has not commented in anyway about the point above, and the fact that someone has not enlightened the person concerned (the student) to this thread, is surprising. I did expect more in the way of the name of the company - as I said before if the instructor can prove its true then he has no worries about action for libel. In fact I would have thought his credibility would have increased as both a person with good moral values, and as an instructor.Even a short explanation from Orbital (the instructor who started the thread) as to why he did not feel it was appropriate to publish the name of either the club or the CFI would have helped credibility. After all Orbital says he's ceased working for the club and is still in contact with the student, so it should not damage his employment, and may even stop the CFI potentially damaging Orbital's long term reputation as an instructor.
After all Orbital felt strongly enough to start a thread about this situation, I can't understand why - what did Orbital want to achieve?
It all seems very wishy washy, at the moment I suspect that someone is using the forum in a personal dispute rather than in a genuine attempt to enlighten, help and educate everyone.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe there will be a bit more detail, maybe even the student might contribute and tell us what happened. Time will tell
Last edited by goldeneaglepilot; 5th Jul 2011 at 19:01.
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BTW did anyone see 'The Apprentice' last week? The winning team were awarded flying lessons, and the landing in a PA28(?) they showed, looked a candidate for a nose leg removal. I can only assume the student released the back pressure part way through the flare.
I had a friend who damaged aircraft during training, I forget the exact details but basically a Super Cub got a bit out of control on landing and ended up in for repair for a while I think...far from being chucked out he just continued on a different aircraft.
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Goldeneaglepilot just did before you last post.
I am not seeking any libel action and not in it to name, it's no big school or anything.
I don't know if the student even knows about prune, but will tell him.
I am not seeking any libel action and not in it to name, it's no big school or anything.
I don't know if the student even knows about prune, but will tell him.
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Anyway I just wanted to get everyones thoughts and thank you for all your comments.To round things up I went up with the student on Sunday and he is keen to carry on with his PPL.
I think I would have given up and missed a lot of joy in flying......
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Orbital - not sure why you would be looking to seek action for Libel? As far as I know, no one has written anything about you, however you have written about your old employer (he might consider libel against you, if your statements were felt to be untrue and damaging to him or his business)- has he written about you with regards the incident with the student that caused you to change employer?
Most students are supportive of their instructors, I guess yours would be in view of the fact that you have left the old company, because of an incident involving him.
I just hope that the posting was not an attempt to get your old employer to write something negative about you, that you could use against them.
Most people don't like being drawn into or used in other peoples arguments.
Most students are supportive of their instructors, I guess yours would be in view of the fact that you have left the old company, because of an incident involving him.
I just hope that the posting was not an attempt to get your old employer to write something negative about you, that you could use against them.
Most people don't like being drawn into or used in other peoples arguments.
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I have only started this to pass on my experience to fellow instructors and to hear their thoughts on the matter . I am not interest in naming clubs, libel and any other stuff. I welcome all the response I have got.
At the end of the day the student has been up and will carry on and I have learnt more about life.
At the end of the day the student has been up and will carry on and I have learnt more about life.
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One good thing about this and other forun's is it often gives people an insight into the experience to expect from XYZ, be that a club, a business, an aircraft or a person. Those experiences can range from good, bad to down right terrible. It can help others avoid expensive learning curves and often get the very best out of their flying experiences.
It would seem from what you have said that you have moved to another club to work, hopefully for better pay and terms of employment. That in itself can be a very positive experience. It would have been helpful to have heard more, to have been able to decide if the experience you and your student had was isolated (for whatever reason) or was typical of a pattern at that club. Without the name, many will never know.
I have (for the experience rather than financial reward, which was poor) instructed at several clubs over the years, always part time. In my experience I have only ever seen the upmost support for a genuine student, the effort that they put into learning was reciprocated by instructors and club alike. Students have bad days, mistakes happen, whilst you (as an instructor) do your best to avoid them, accidents will happen. Hopefully damage is minimal and everyone does their best to support both student and associated instructor to gain something positive in terms of learning, from what is in essence a negative experience.
Had you published more (including the name of the business) it might have helped others with regards caution to any problems faced at that club.
It would seem from what you have said that you have moved to another club to work, hopefully for better pay and terms of employment. That in itself can be a very positive experience. It would have been helpful to have heard more, to have been able to decide if the experience you and your student had was isolated (for whatever reason) or was typical of a pattern at that club. Without the name, many will never know.
I have (for the experience rather than financial reward, which was poor) instructed at several clubs over the years, always part time. In my experience I have only ever seen the upmost support for a genuine student, the effort that they put into learning was reciprocated by instructors and club alike. Students have bad days, mistakes happen, whilst you (as an instructor) do your best to avoid them, accidents will happen. Hopefully damage is minimal and everyone does their best to support both student and associated instructor to gain something positive in terms of learning, from what is in essence a negative experience.
Had you published more (including the name of the business) it might have helped others with regards caution to any problems faced at that club.
This is a question that I think is very difficult to answer on the web. I think the correct answer of what to do with a student who bends an aircraft on a solo trip has to be looked at in the context of his/her entire training history, attitude, the circumstances of the accident, the actions of the instructor and the overall effect on the school.
Depending on the circumstances, I could see many possible outcomes from continuing training with the same instructor and a hearty "you will never do that again" from the CFI......... all the way to immediately showing the student the door with instructions that they are not welcome on the premises
Depending on the circumstances, I could see many possible outcomes from continuing training with the same instructor and a hearty "you will never do that again" from the CFI......... all the way to immediately showing the student the door with instructions that they are not welcome on the premises
