What do they teach flying instructors these days?

[Say again s l o w l y]

Holy cow. This thread is scary!

[Tralika]

I like Rod Machado's quote on what you need to learn say to become a Flight Instructor,

More right rudder,

I have the controls,

Did you want to pay me now?

[Cows getting bigger]

Beagle, I guess that's where generations differ. I want a system where a school can cope with different piloting styles. OK, a student should not be confused by different instructors but I get sick of being told "this is the way we have always done things here". Why does my CFI insist on one particular landing technique (ie he doesn't like PnP) but, in the same breath, is quite happy with the various x-wind techniques? What really annoys me is CFIs who have there own 'whims' based on lack of willingness to embrace (or even understand) different techniques.

Yes, I have had a bad day - my CFI has just insisted on a "5kts for luck" addition to SOPs, choosing to ignore the numbers promulgated in the AFM.

[Say again s l o w l y]

CGB, would you tell me where you teach? I'll ring and have a word.

5kts for luck...You have my permission to kick him in the pods the next time you see him.

Ask him to work out how much extra energy you are carrying by "adding 5kts for luck" compared to the proper speeds. If he doesn't know how to do it, then boot him again, only this time make sure you are wearing steel toe caps.

[Pugilistic Animus]

stalls result from lack of power that why gliders can't stall... so add full power,...because stalls are also caused by lack of altitude
of course on the other hand power controls speed and pitch altitude







please don't listen to that!!!

edit: The stall is the MOST misunderstood phenomena in the business and the MOST dangerous,...second most misunderstood subject,...OPERATING STRENGTH LIMITATIONS!!!!

BEagle where I fly you have to do clearing turns for even medium and shallow turns

PA

[Dan Winterland]

"BEagle where I fly you have to do clearing turns for even medium and shallow turns"

A clearing turn before you do a turn! How do you know the area is clear before you start the clearing turn?

[mad_jock]

O and another practise which is out there which needs to be stopped.

While in a fully developed stall the stall is maintained while the students uses boots full of rudder to intially lift the wing back to level and then they play tap dancing on the pedals keeping it that way. And only recover when prompted from the RHS.

MJ has visions of SAS walking into a FTO and requesting to see the CFI then booting him in the chugs with the comment "take that you fud, see how much extra energy my boot has at 5knts"

[BEagle]

While in a fully developed stall the stall is maintained while the students uses boots full of rudder to intially lift the wing back to level and then they play tap dancing on the pedals keeping it that way. And only recover when prompted from the RHS.

mad jock - who on earth is doing that? Another candidate for SAS' toe cap / dangly bits interface check!

I don't agree that students should be allowed to be taught by the method which allegedly they prefer. They won't understand the difference in an case - and are more likely to pick the better FI rather than the better method.....

Schools must teach their standard method. That's what the CAA said when this was raised before - and it is obvious sense. Nothing to do with 'your generation' or 'my g..g..g..gen..er..a..tion'!

[mad_jock]

Used to be taught in the NE of England and there was one instructor in Liverpool and I also had students from Southampton that did it (but that was some years ago now). But I haven't come across students from there for a bit. And I can think of 2 CRE's down your way that did it as well (or they used to do 3 years ago and both operated on a class 2 medical so with any luck they have given up, to note it was one of them that wanted the roll in to be cooled down). I have no proof that they did but when you get 5 plus check outs from the same area all doing it, it makes you wonder. Again back to the regional fads.

Quite alot of FL trained students will do it as well.

I was trained to do that when I did my PPL and even got bollocked in the test for recovering before being told so had to repeat. Apparently its meant to show that you know not to use any roll input in slow flight, or some such bollocks.

And I agree with you about using the same technique for everyone for most of the exercises. The one I would teach to suit the students would be Nav, PFL's and Approach. If the standard one isn't clicking I will try another method and see if that does click which it usually does. The fact that I had used a different method with success would be recorded in the student records. I have always worked with instructors that this won't have been an issue with, and it wasn't a problem with the training syllabus.

[DFC]

While in a fully developed stall the stall is maintained while the students uses boots full of rudder to intially lift the wing back to level and then they play tap dancing on the pedals keeping it that way. And only recover when prompted from the RHS.

Can anyone here tell me what happens to the pitch attitude at the point of an upright wings level stall?

Can they then please tell me what happens to the angle of attack when that happens and there is no yaw?

What are they teaching instructors these days indeed.

I have no problem with the student using rudder to maintain lateral level into and out of the stall - in fact I insist on it.

To permit them to have confidence in what the rudder can do I find that it is a good exercise as part of Ex 11 to get them to experience the rudder effectiveness throughout the stall entry and recovery and give them confidence in the fact that RUDDER ALONE will prevent yaw even at angle of atacks above the stalling angle of attack. That leads nicely to the incipient spin entry and recovery.

I am controling the ailerons and elevator and I hold full aft stick for a time to cause some stall entries and exits (note the word exit and not recovery) in quick succession. The student prevents yaw using the rudder.

This is not an exercise in itself it is a good building block. It is not ""picking up the wing" it is "preventing yaw".

These days most of the FI population lack even the basic knowledge of stalls and have a fear of teaching the exercise and consequently students are just taught the 3 entries and recoveries that they will be asked in the test and not 1 bit more.

Ask many if they teach the stall in the climb with full power and you will be met by shock at the idea of doing something so dangerous.......so what chance is there of that FI teaching stalls and recoveries in a steep turn?

If there is a good horizon and suitable height ASFC and the aircraft is suitable then give the student the best possible training - not just the minimal pass the examination stuff.

Therefore I see MJ's comments as being typical of a situation where the person callign for the exercise to be banned does not understand the exercise and probably the fact that those from which he experienced it did not either.

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I agree 100% with BEagle when he says that schools must teach to a defined standard and must have consitent SOPs and methods. That is the only way to teach a consistent course for the general student population. Those who learn quicker will naturally have the time to experience more than one method while at the same time those that fail to understand the standard method may find an alternative method easier. But the decision to use an alternative method in order to progress must be a clear well thoughout decision with a defined objective involving the CFI and the instructor.

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of course on the other hand power controls speed and pitch altitude

Power is not one of the aircraft controls. Go back to exercise 1 please.

There is a control/controls that gives the pilot the ability to vary the power. A variation in the power will affect on the aircraft. Ask yourself what that is?

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"BEagle where I fly you have to do clearing turns for even medium and shallow turns"

A clearing turn before you do a turn! How do you know the area is clear before you start the clearing turn?

I would hope that every instructor will check for other traffic in their chosen trainnig area before starting any exercise but perhaps not and this is why we have instructors starting to demonstrate exercise 6 when one can see that in about 30 seconds they will have to turn to avoid another aircraft which is doing ex 9 nearby.

That is why I say every instructor should be automatically running through some form of HASELL prior to any exercise and consequently they are not in a position of asking the student to make a left turn andnot being sure that there is no traffic - more than abit embarasing when you ask for a turn and the student points out traffic.

Especially so when (as I hope everyone agrees) we tell the students that if we see traffic that will affect us we will always point it out and that they should always do the same i.e. I will never see traffic and wait to see if you spot it also - that is a stupid unsafe game. You see it you tell me. I see it I tell you.

['I' in the sky]

DFC,
I don't think MJ is disputung that rudder can and should be used to prevent yaw. He referred to FL trained pilots among others and the common patter in the states for a long time was and possibly still is "rudder to pick up the wing". This led to an exercise called oscillatory stalling where bootfulls of rudder were used to pick up one wing and then the other. AAIB Bulletin 3/2006 refers.

Here's another one though.
When I did my own AFI course I was taught to teach S & L by demonstrating what S & L was, give the a/c back to the stude not S & L and out of trim, and ask him to regain S &L and retrim the a/c. That would get me fired from my present job.

My first CFI who was also my AFI insructor also used to insist that the only checkpoints which could be used on a nav leg were 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 waypoints - even if there wasn't a feature there !

[mad_jock]

I don't know what DFC is saying cause he has been on my ignore list for talking pish for a year now.

But you have hit the nail on the head on my views 'I' in the sky.

And although not in the stall it was also the reason why the arse fell off an airbus not so long after Sept 11th.

[Say again s l o w l y]

There are certain exercises that must be taught the same way and this is where the CAA should probably sort out a proper in depth syllabus, rather than just headlines.
However, there are others that different techniques can be taught to suit the student, but the basic principles should always be the same.

Mind you, the level of knowledge and understanding that I am detecting in the industry is absolutely gobsmacking. More than that, it's chuffing horrifying.

I was at an instructor seminar last week and some of the points that were raised had me shaking my head in disbelief.

As for the airbus where the tail fell off, that's due to control reversion. Something that few aircraft outside of the military (and even a fair few in it) cannot take. Full and rapid control deflection backwards and forwards puts massive strain on them. Not a very good long term survival strategy that.

[mad_jock]

Yep agreed about that SAS.

But the shall we say base issue was the fact that the pilot was trying to use the rudder to level the wings.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Yep, the poor s*d did exactly as he was trained to do.

Just to complete your mental image M_J, here's the prescribed method for confronting people who teach this sort of nonsense.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

I take your point on the 'turn before a turn' and the HASELL check.

I must admit this idea has varied between the instructors/examiners I have met.

My policy is to turn to look around the general area, rather than a specific 'clearing turn'.

However, I do it as a part of a HASELL check even if the rate of turn is more of a general look-see than a positive clearing turn as would be carried out before stalling/spinning.

I still think it's best to survey the general area rather than launch straight into a steep turn, even if you do look immediately before, during and after the turn.

One point that was made earlier is the question of standardisation of instructional technique. I think this is neglected by CFIs and senior instructors. It's de rigueur in airlines to have standard SOPs and so it should be within flying schools.

Maybe this is one issue that could be addressed and would help to maintain standards as well as ensure effective instruction. Many students I have flown with have varied so much in what they have been taught with too much variation in technique within the same training organisation. I know it all takes time and is a pain - but I can't remember the last 'instructor meeting' I attended where standards and policies were discussed (this tends to be a problem where a number of part-time instuctors are employed).

KR

FOK

[Pugilistic Animus]

A clearing turn before you do a turn! How do you know the area is clear before you start the clearing turn?

Power is not one of the aircraft controls. Go back to exercise 1 please.

There is a control/controls that gives the pilot the ability to vary the power. A variation in the power will affect on the aircraft. Ask yourself what that is?

While in a fully developed stall the stall is maintained while the students uses boots full of rudder to intially lift the wing back to level and then they play tap dancing on the pedals keeping it that way. And only recover when prompted from the RHS.

Falling leaf

PA

[sapperkenno]

Clearing turns

I was taught by a DPE at one stage, and what he said regarding them made a fair bit of sense, as opposed to "always do them".

If we were gonna be doing slow stuff, like MCA, Stalling etc and weren't going to be very maneuverable... do some clearing turns first. Right/Left 90, followed by Left/Right 90.

If you're doing steep turns, you'll be at or around cruise speed, the ailerons will be nice and effective, and if you need to take avoiding action, the aircraft will respond better, so you can go straight into them without doing a "turn before you turn" as previously mentioned. Just have a good lookout, as you should be doing anyway, being a good trainee flight instructor and all.

Then, if you've done the steep turns as the first maneuver and he wants you to do something else, like a stall demo, or a chandelle or whatever... you already cleared the area when you did your steep turns, so as long as it's not minutes later and you're not miles away, you just get on with whatever the next demo is.

Made sense to me.

As an interesting side note, I didn't hear HASELL/HELL mentioned once out in the States... But we had our own practice area over barren desert/mountains in Class G, and generally did clearing turns prior to acro stuff, checked the T's & P's, set the Prop/Mixture etc, and it was drummed into us to start all maneuvers above 3500'AGL. We also didn't have flaps/gear to worry about, so that pretty much covers HASELL/HELL anyway.
Most of the guys pissed themselves laughing as I tried explaining BUMPFITCH to them too... "How in hell will the brake have been set..?", "The Undercarriage is fixed asshole" etc etc As far as I know, in the 25 year history of that flight school, nobody has landed with the parking brake set, despite never been taught to check it downwind, or landed wheels up in anything with fixed gear.

[DFC]

If you're doing steep turns, you'll be at or around cruise speed, the ailerons will be nice and effective, and if you need to take avoiding action, the aircraft will respond better, so you can go straight into them without doing a "turn before you turn" as previously mentioned.

Would it not be safer to check that there is no traffic first and threby improve the chances of not having to take avoiding action / disrupt the lesson.

I would hope that most instructors will use a few warm-up turns by the student to have a good look round the chosen training area and position the aircraft for the exercise. However, while we are (I hope) doing these actions automatically, the student needs a clearly defined process whereby you can mitigate against the posibility of them doing solo steep turns at 1000ft with traffic all round or as is more often the case - at 3000ft scrubbing the cloudbase and drifting into regulated airspace.

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One of the biggest areas in which the system as whole if also failing is in training students in decision making - preflight. I have sen cases where students complete the whole course and never make a decision as to the suitability fo the weather and can even fly for some time thereafter as a PPL with the same situation.

They ring the school at 0900 and ask the "are we flying today?" question to which they get a yes or no answer. This situation of the school / instructor deciding if it is good enough to fly continues right through to the test and beyond if they stay with the same school.

This can have a number of endings - they make a decision at an away field which frightens them and they give up or worse they kill themselves.

Often these pilots go on to be instructors and I have seen how much they struggle as instructors with making basic go/nogo decisions.

The fact that the decision making / human factors element of the course is brushed over does not help at all.

Since the decision making ability of most people turning up to complete an FI or CRI course is very poor, we need to ensure that instructors are trained and tested to improve this both during the course and (in the case of the FI) in the post course training.

[Cows getting bigger]

There is a counter argument to that view Alister. If a pilot gets used to something like:

Brakes - off, pressure good
Undercarriage - Down and welded Ha Ha
Mixture - Rich

The day he starts flying an aircraft with retractable gear he may well follow the format "Gear "down and welded Ha Ha" without ever checking that is the case.

Personally, I see a significant number of student pilots following a memory checklist without actually doing the checks.