Standard Spin Recovery
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Yes
Standard Spin recovery;
Throttle Closed
Ailerons Neutral
Check that it is a spin and not a spiral and check direction of rotation
Stick - Back
Rudder Full opposite to direction of rotation
Pause
Move the stick progressively forward until rotation stops
Ease out of dive
The reason for the stick back and the pause are to ensure that the wake from the elevator blanks out as little rudder as possible and that the rudder has time to bite before the area of the rudder blanked is increaded by forward movement of the elevator.
Regards,
DFC
Standard Spin recovery;
Throttle Closed
Ailerons Neutral
Check that it is a spin and not a spiral and check direction of rotation
Stick - Back
Rudder Full opposite to direction of rotation
Pause
Move the stick progressively forward until rotation stops
Ease out of dive
The reason for the stick back and the pause are to ensure that the wake from the elevator blanks out as little rudder as possible and that the rudder has time to bite before the area of the rudder blanked is increaded by forward movement of the elevator.
Regards,
DFC
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There is no such thing as a standard spin recovery.
Read the POH. Some aircraft have very very similar spin recovery techniques.
But each one is only valid for that aircraft.
And the entry into the spin in a controlled manner is defined as well.
If you try doing this "procedure" in several types it will end in tears.
In the PA38 for example it is normal to spin faster before slowing down and at the point the plane starts flying again any amount of forward stick will give you one hell of a neg G bunt and put it inverted.
Read the POH. Some aircraft have very very similar spin recovery techniques.
But each one is only valid for that aircraft.
And the entry into the spin in a controlled manner is defined as well.
If you try doing this "procedure" in several types it will end in tears.
In the PA38 for example it is normal to spin faster before slowing down and at the point the plane starts flying again any amount of forward stick will give you one hell of a neg G bunt and put it inverted.
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The mad one is correct, there is no 'standard' spin recovery (unlike a standard stall recovery). What may work for one type may not work for another, indeed it may worsen the situation. There are generic methods such as described but they may not work for all types, you have to check the POH. Then there is the Muller recovery.......(haven't tried it so don't know), and I seem to recall reading about a method advocated by Alan Cassidy (very very good aeros pilot) which involves letting go all the controls and pushing on the nearest rudder pedal until the spin slows down then flying it out......
There IS a standard spin recovery and aircraft (if approved for spinning) are required to recover with it during certification. The manufacturer may, however, determine that there is a variation which gives an improved recovery and, if so, this will be in the POH. The standard spin recovery includes a pause.
DB6: the Beggs-Mueller technique involves letting go of the stick and fully pressing the hardest rudder pedal - I'm told that it works in many aircraft but am personally aware that it gives degraded (if any) recovery in at least two types. It may be useful if you don't whether the spin is erect or inverted.
A word to the wise: this is not an area to play around with if you are unsure or untrained - take someone who IS sure and trained if experimenting, and wear a parachute if possible.
HFD
DB6: the Beggs-Mueller technique involves letting go of the stick and fully pressing the hardest rudder pedal - I'm told that it works in many aircraft but am personally aware that it gives degraded (if any) recovery in at least two types. It may be useful if you don't whether the spin is erect or inverted.
A word to the wise: this is not an area to play around with if you are unsure or untrained - take someone who IS sure and trained if experimenting, and wear a parachute if possible.
HFD
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Standard Spin Recovery
Of course there is a 'standard spin recovery'. Of course when a specific recovery technique is stated in the POH it is presumed to be best method for the particular aeroplane. NOT always so, however. The Piper Tomahawk (PA38) and the Slingsby Firefly (T67) both were in error in the recommended POH techniques and later modified.
The terms 'pause' and 'nuetral' I believe are too vague.
The 'Standard Spin Recovery' technique known to me is;
1. Close throttle
ascertain direction of rotation
2. Apply maximum opposite rudder
maintain stick fully aft until rotation slows, then
3. Move stick progressively forward
when rotation stops
5. centralise rudder
gain sufficient speed
5. Level wings and recover from the dive.
At first the increase in rotational speed with the PA38 wasn't understood as resulting from the desired pitch down. It was wrongly thought to be a deepening of the spin. Further, the increasing rotational speed required a multiplying number of rotations to recover with an associated height loss. The manual therefore required a re-write.
At times the T67 required the stick to be progressed fully forward for the recovery to be successful. A number of RAF crews evacuated only to watch their aeroplane recover on its own, as they floated to earth. The manual required a re-write.
I doubt whether the Standard Spin Recovery will ever let anyone down, if properly executed, although sometimes it is not the precise proven technique found in the POH. Just the same it is perfectly reasonable to be widely taught, so to be in the non-aerobatic pilots 'rule of thumb' armoury.
Many will argue with vigor that only the POH technique should be used, I understand why they are saying that but such a demand is not very realistic for use by the average weekend PPL holder following a non-intended entry.
The terms 'pause' and 'nuetral' I believe are too vague.
The 'Standard Spin Recovery' technique known to me is;
1. Close throttle
ascertain direction of rotation
2. Apply maximum opposite rudder
maintain stick fully aft until rotation slows, then
3. Move stick progressively forward
when rotation stops
5. centralise rudder
gain sufficient speed
5. Level wings and recover from the dive.
At first the increase in rotational speed with the PA38 wasn't understood as resulting from the desired pitch down. It was wrongly thought to be a deepening of the spin. Further, the increasing rotational speed required a multiplying number of rotations to recover with an associated height loss. The manual therefore required a re-write.
At times the T67 required the stick to be progressed fully forward for the recovery to be successful. A number of RAF crews evacuated only to watch their aeroplane recover on its own, as they floated to earth. The manual required a re-write.
I doubt whether the Standard Spin Recovery will ever let anyone down, if properly executed, although sometimes it is not the precise proven technique found in the POH. Just the same it is perfectly reasonable to be widely taught, so to be in the non-aerobatic pilots 'rule of thumb' armoury.
Many will argue with vigor that only the POH technique should be used, I understand why they are saying that but such a demand is not very realistic for use by the average weekend PPL holder following a non-intended entry.
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Hmmm, yes. Whither ailerons and flaps, Homeguard? Standard spin recovery is news to me, although I stand to be corrected. What is your understanding for certification, Hugh? The nearest I know of is the NASA-inspired 'PARE' i.e. Power off, Ailerons neutral (flaps up), Rudder opposite to spin direction, Elevators through neutral (no mention of pauses although actions should be sequential). There are enough subtle variations even in the recovery methods mentioned on this thread to cast doubt on the validity of a 'standard' spin recovery, although I will happily defer (with genuine interest) to those with more knowledge than myself. Interesting thread on spinning on the Flight Testing forum by the way.
Last edited by DB6; 11th May 2008 at 18:45.
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If I am asked to test fly an aircraft which will require a spin programme then the spin recovery technique I will use is the standard recovery technique I specified above.
If it is found during testing that because of good design, ample rudder effectiveness and minimal rudder blanking during the spin with the elevator held in the most adverse position.
Then I may consider that there would not be a requirement to specify either a pause or a requirement to hold the stick back during the rcovery.
So we start with the standard recovery and work from there. I have found that many aircraft recover very well by simply letting go buty I am not going to put my name to that technique in the flight manual.
Therefore it is correct to say that the POH procedure must be followed but if that technique is not what I said in my first post then it is not standard.
Regards
DFC
If it is found during testing that because of good design, ample rudder effectiveness and minimal rudder blanking during the spin with the elevator held in the most adverse position.
Then I may consider that there would not be a requirement to specify either a pause or a requirement to hold the stick back during the rcovery.
So we start with the standard recovery and work from there. I have found that many aircraft recover very well by simply letting go buty I am not going to put my name to that technique in the flight manual.
Therefore it is correct to say that the POH procedure must be followed but if that technique is not what I said in my first post then it is not standard.
Regards
DFC
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To be honest these days the majority of instructors coming out of the sausage factory have as much clue about spinning thier machines as the students do.
The first time they will have done a spin is on thier FIC which if they have done it in a cessna won't be a proper spin. It will be a turn or 2 with the help of the rudder which when released stops spinning anyway.
I have only ever once been in a fully developed spin in a C150 and it was with the FII in control when he manged to flip it over the top by stalling it in a steep turn and putting full roll control inputs in. Never managed to repeat it and never seen a C150 spin like it since. He did the "procedure" it didn't work and he had to put power on to get some rudder back.
The regulation that all planes must NOW be able to recover using this standard recovery maybe explain why there is not many if at all new designs on the market which are spin certified.
Just to add any PA38 pilots out there don't use the above technique to recover a tommy, Do as the book says.
Does anyone have a link to the requirments of flight test for new aircraft?
PS DFC not fair removing that post which told everyone that you are now a certified test pilot for light aircraft. I was quite looking forward to some of the responces to that little gem.
The first time they will have done a spin is on thier FIC which if they have done it in a cessna won't be a proper spin. It will be a turn or 2 with the help of the rudder which when released stops spinning anyway.
I have only ever once been in a fully developed spin in a C150 and it was with the FII in control when he manged to flip it over the top by stalling it in a steep turn and putting full roll control inputs in. Never managed to repeat it and never seen a C150 spin like it since. He did the "procedure" it didn't work and he had to put power on to get some rudder back.
The regulation that all planes must NOW be able to recover using this standard recovery maybe explain why there is not many if at all new designs on the market which are spin certified.
Just to add any PA38 pilots out there don't use the above technique to recover a tommy, Do as the book says.
Does anyone have a link to the requirments of flight test for new aircraft?
PS DFC not fair removing that post which told everyone that you are now a certified test pilot for light aircraft. I was quite looking forward to some of the responces to that little gem.
Last edited by mad_jock; 12th May 2008 at 10:26. Reason: flippant comment on a subject I find interesting
I was going to reply to DFC's post but ...
Instructing, I don't use the word "pause" instead saying "and then" so there's little doubt about when to move the elevator after applying full rudder opposite the yaw.
There's been much discussion on this before eg http://www.pprune.org/forums/archive...p/t-97176.html
NACA or NASA use the term "standard" so it does exist although agree with everyone that it does not exist in normal flying ops i.e. follow the POH (except when the POH is wrong?)
For current certification requirements see page 88 of FAA AC 23-8 (part 1) at
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...6?OpenDocument
I see that they state "full opposite rudder, followed by forward elevator control as required". So that is the "standard". Aerobatic category aircraft may have 'additional recovery procedures" and I know of one which specifies full forward stick and full inspin aileron.
As for unintentional spins, what works for the initial gyrations (which is what the average PPL should know) may not work for the fully developed spin.
Instructing, I don't use the word "pause" instead saying "and then" so there's little doubt about when to move the elevator after applying full rudder opposite the yaw.
There's been much discussion on this before eg http://www.pprune.org/forums/archive...p/t-97176.html
NACA or NASA use the term "standard" so it does exist although agree with everyone that it does not exist in normal flying ops i.e. follow the POH (except when the POH is wrong?)
For current certification requirements see page 88 of FAA AC 23-8 (part 1) at
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...6?OpenDocument
I see that they state "full opposite rudder, followed by forward elevator control as required". So that is the "standard". Aerobatic category aircraft may have 'additional recovery procedures" and I know of one which specifies full forward stick and full inspin aileron.
As for unintentional spins, what works for the initial gyrations (which is what the average PPL should know) may not work for the fully developed spin.
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Just for the none JAR folk.
Spinning has now been removed from the JAR PPL, it is an option but from purely personal experence there are fewer and fewer PPL instructors willing to even demonsrate it never mind patter it.
I used to get folk coming to do thier hour with an instructor purely because the school was one of the few who would spin the PA38.
Spinning has now been removed from the JAR PPL, it is an option but from purely personal experence there are fewer and fewer PPL instructors willing to even demonsrate it never mind patter it.
I used to get folk coming to do thier hour with an instructor purely because the school was one of the few who would spin the PA38.
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Mad jock,
Don't know what you are on about.
However, in regard to the PA38 are you talking about;
"FLAPS UP SPINS ARE APPROVED FOR UTILITY CATEGORY OPERATION. FOR SPIN RECOVERY, USE FULL RUDDER AGAINST THE SPIN FOLLOWED IMMEDIATELY BY FORWARD WHEEL. "
If so then I must point out two things;
1. While all pilots must follow the POH in this regard, the PA38 will recover from a spin using the "standard stall recovery".
2. The PA38 will pitch down and rotation rate will increase when recovery is initiated. Many pilots may have in the past assumed wrongly that this was an indication that the aircraft was not going to recover and tried other control positions rather than holding full opposite rudder and continuing to move the control column forward.
Please read my explanation outlining the reason for a "pause" - wake from the elevator / blanking of the rudder and ensuring sufficient rudder effectiveness.
With that in mind then note the erect spin attitudes, trajectory and relative airflow in the tail area.............while remembering that the PA38 is a T tail
------------
CS-23 or CS-VLA are the relevant European docs. CS.23.221 deals with spinning. There is no requirement for an aircraft to recover using the "standard" procedure. However, an aircraft that requires a very unusual recovery procedure from a basic power off one turn upright spin probably has further deficiencies that will require more "development".
Regards,
DFC
Don't know what you are on about.
However, in regard to the PA38 are you talking about;
"FLAPS UP SPINS ARE APPROVED FOR UTILITY CATEGORY OPERATION. FOR SPIN RECOVERY, USE FULL RUDDER AGAINST THE SPIN FOLLOWED IMMEDIATELY BY FORWARD WHEEL. "
If so then I must point out two things;
1. While all pilots must follow the POH in this regard, the PA38 will recover from a spin using the "standard stall recovery".
2. The PA38 will pitch down and rotation rate will increase when recovery is initiated. Many pilots may have in the past assumed wrongly that this was an indication that the aircraft was not going to recover and tried other control positions rather than holding full opposite rudder and continuing to move the control column forward.
Please read my explanation outlining the reason for a "pause" - wake from the elevator / blanking of the rudder and ensuring sufficient rudder effectiveness.
With that in mind then note the erect spin attitudes, trajectory and relative airflow in the tail area.............while remembering that the PA38 is a T tail
------------
CS-23 or CS-VLA are the relevant European docs. CS.23.221 deals with spinning. There is no requirement for an aircraft to recover using the "standard" procedure. However, an aircraft that requires a very unusual recovery procedure from a basic power off one turn upright spin probably has further deficiencies that will require more "development".
Regards,
DFC
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I ask the question because I am also a gliding instructor and am reliably informed that there is no need to "pause" in any glider - "that's just for power aircraft"
The pause is to enable the rudder to slow down the rate of yaw before the down-deflected elevator partially blanks the rudder, it also removes the possibility of the stick accidentally being moved forward before anti-spin rudder has been applied. The need for the first of these depends on the tail geometry and probably is not needed with a T tail (but there are lots of gliders around without T tails, including the Puchacz that once nearly caught me out near the ground). The importance of the latter depends on a lot of things that are too complex for me to understand, but thinking of ice skaters and moments of inertia will give you a clue.
You're presumably giving generic training; there's no downside to using a pause and there will be an upside with some types. The answer seems pretty obvious to me.
Try re-reading DP's book, I'm sure it'll be in there
HFD
(BTW, I spent nearly 10 years as a gliding instructor at LGS - happy days)
You're presumably giving generic training; there's no downside to using a pause and there will be an upside with some types. The answer seems pretty obvious to me.
Try re-reading DP's book, I'm sure it'll be in there
HFD
(BTW, I spent nearly 10 years as a gliding instructor at LGS - happy days)
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An interesting article from aopa
http://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/stall_spin.html
Bit of a statistic though 13% of accidents that are fatal involve spin/stall
Also that over 80% of the accidents occur below 1000ft agl with cock all chance what ever method used of recovering.
Also an article on the PA38
http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/t-hawk.html
http://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/stall_spin.html
Bit of a statistic though 13% of accidents that are fatal involve spin/stall
Also that over 80% of the accidents occur below 1000ft agl with cock all chance what ever method used of recovering.
Also an article on the PA38
http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/t-hawk.html
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Another good article.
Must admit I am leaning more and more towards FI's who haven't got the aero's restriction removed being stopped from even demonstrating spin's.
I can see the point of being tested on the recovery on the FI flight test but in no way does this qualify you to be demonstrating them.
Looking back it feels wrong now that I was demonstrating spinning the PA38 with maybe an hours instruction on spinning if that total.
Must admit I am leaning more and more towards FI's who haven't got the aero's restriction removed being stopped from even demonstrating spin's.
I can see the point of being tested on the recovery on the FI flight test but in no way does this qualify you to be demonstrating them.
Looking back it feels wrong now that I was demonstrating spinning the PA38 with maybe an hours instruction on spinning if that total.
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Standard Spin Recovery
Whether or not anyone agrees with it or otherwise hates the fact, the 'Standard Spin Recovery' does exist. Ron Campbell within his 'Flying Training for the PPL, Instructor Manual', refers to it and explains it fully in the section on spinning. However as one would expect he emphasises the importance of the pilot being primarily guided by the actual Aircraft Manual.
He also notes that 'certain foreign manufactured aircraft whose spin recovery characteristics are different to those built and certificated in accordance with the British Civil Airworthiness Requirements, have been introduced into the UK'. He then continues, ' The flight Manuals or equivalent documents of these aircraft therefore outline spin recovery procedures which are different from that which has historically become known as the 'Standard Spin Recovery'.
For me, because the pilot can put themselves into a spin, particularly if poorly loaded and aided by in-appropiate handling, the Spinning exercise should still be taught. Any flying instructor should be able to teach the entry which will, as closely as is possible, replicate an accidental spin. Then, during the demonstration identify, with the student, the symptoms and the characteristics discovered during the spin and the correct subsequent recovery.
Whether the spin recovery taught is the 'Standard' or more specifically from the actual aircraft manual, this argument will never be resolved. But, bearing in mind the reluctance to spin by a very significant number of FIs these days there is a strong argument that supports teaching the standard spin recovery technique, on the basis that few will ever be taken through the more correct specific recoveries outlined in a particular aircraft type's manual, that is, of course, unless aerobatic instruction takes place.
He also notes that 'certain foreign manufactured aircraft whose spin recovery characteristics are different to those built and certificated in accordance with the British Civil Airworthiness Requirements, have been introduced into the UK'. He then continues, ' The flight Manuals or equivalent documents of these aircraft therefore outline spin recovery procedures which are different from that which has historically become known as the 'Standard Spin Recovery'.
For me, because the pilot can put themselves into a spin, particularly if poorly loaded and aided by in-appropiate handling, the Spinning exercise should still be taught. Any flying instructor should be able to teach the entry which will, as closely as is possible, replicate an accidental spin. Then, during the demonstration identify, with the student, the symptoms and the characteristics discovered during the spin and the correct subsequent recovery.
Whether the spin recovery taught is the 'Standard' or more specifically from the actual aircraft manual, this argument will never be resolved. But, bearing in mind the reluctance to spin by a very significant number of FIs these days there is a strong argument that supports teaching the standard spin recovery technique, on the basis that few will ever be taken through the more correct specific recoveries outlined in a particular aircraft type's manual, that is, of course, unless aerobatic instruction takes place.