Can a (UK)CAA FI to teach in France, Italy, Spain...?
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Can a (UK)CAA FI to teach in France, Italy, Spain...?
Hello Everybody,
I'm converting my FAA CPL and CFI to (UK)CAA CPL and FI. I'd like to know if after all the convertions I'll be restricted to teach in UK only or I'll be allowed to do so in other European countries as well. Anyone can help with some infos?
Thanks a lot in advance to all!!!
Cheers,
Ironside71
I'm converting my FAA CPL and CFI to (UK)CAA CPL and FI. I'd like to know if after all the convertions I'll be restricted to teach in UK only or I'll be allowed to do so in other European countries as well. Anyone can help with some infos?
Thanks a lot in advance to all!!!
Cheers,
Ironside71
Educated Hillbilly
Sorry to be pedantic, but surely you mean a UK issued JAA CPL with FI. The term CAA CPL does refer to the old national licence, (pre 2002) of which there are still a significant amount of holders still around.
The idea of a JAA license was in theory that you should be able to work in any JAA member state, how often this works in practice I am not sure.
The idea of a JAA license was in theory that you should be able to work in any JAA member state, how often this works in practice I am not sure.
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There are to the best of my knowledge quite a number of Instructors teaching in Ireland at the moment who are Spanish Nationals with Spanish issued JAA/CPL/FI which would suggest you can move freely from country to country within JAA?
In theory yes but in practice each State still applies its own rules. In France if you are French you can do anything, any other nationality NON!
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Can a (UK)CAA FI to teach in France, Italy, Spain...?
Hi
I teach in France, in principle all instructors should be able to teach anywhere in the JAR countries but it does not always work out that simply.
It took me over two years of hard slog to gain permission to teach in France, each case is unique to the French authorities. Pam Campbell of A.O.P.A gave me a lot of help and advice, without her I doubt that I would have gained the required permission.
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I teach in France, in principle all instructors should be able to teach anywhere in the JAR countries but it does not always work out that simply.
It took me over two years of hard slog to gain permission to teach in France, each case is unique to the French authorities. Pam Campbell of A.O.P.A gave me a lot of help and advice, without her I doubt that I would have gained the required permission.
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Instructing in France
Susan
What were the particular issues that you were required to meet to get the permission to instruct in France.
Do the french require that you speak french?
What were the particular issues that you were required to meet to get the permission to instruct in France.
Do the french require that you speak french?
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Instructor in France
No, I did not have to speak French it was much more complicated than that.
All the PPL training in France was in French and the system was not in place to change immediately to English examinations. They have various laws which covered this situation and they had to find a legal answer to my request.
The other point is that most of the instructors in France are attached to non profit making associations and are unpaid.
All the PPL training in France was in French and the system was not in place to change immediately to English examinations. They have various laws which covered this situation and they had to find a legal answer to my request.
The other point is that most of the instructors in France are attached to non profit making associations and are unpaid.
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Hi Susan,
Slightly off topic but still relevant ; maybe you have had to deal with French CAA and can give me your thoughts:
I hold a French PPL since 1986
Since 2002 spend quite some time in Italy, and got my JAR-FI(A) after having completed the theoretical JAR-CPL.
Did so in compliance with JAR regulations for PPL holders, so as to be able to assist at the aeroclub on a voluntary unpaid basis.
Now when I went to have my FI endorsement, I got into trouble, for the Italian CAA cannot write or stamp anything on a foreign licence.
And apparently the French despite JAR, and Easa agreements ( Jar's are not binding but Easa's should be) will not endorse my licence with a rating I have obtained in another JAr State.
Have had many phone calls with the French administration, apparently this is not an isolated case. So I went as far as sending a request to the highest levels: DGAC, Pôle d'Expertise du Personnel Navigant in Paris..
This was done 2 weeks ago by registered mail, let's see what they have to say. They anticipated they will discuss the matter in a meeting convened for that purpose (!!!!!!)
Also have been in touch with JAA offices in Holland, they are kept informed as well.
Of course I would have an alternative to sort tis out:
Relinquish my French JAR PPL and get the Italian JAR PPL Instead.
The reason I want to avoid doing this is because of the mess with italian administrations, always a nightmare to deal with them.
Also I hold an aerobatics rating and am working towards my mountain rating ....And these are under national legislation, not JAR's.
So there will be a problem there...Don't want to risk having to do them all over....
Don't know if you hold a UK FI(A) or French one, or if you have been through this yourself, but I would be interested to have your thoughts!!
Bye Aldo
Slightly off topic but still relevant ; maybe you have had to deal with French CAA and can give me your thoughts:
I hold a French PPL since 1986
Since 2002 spend quite some time in Italy, and got my JAR-FI(A) after having completed the theoretical JAR-CPL.
Did so in compliance with JAR regulations for PPL holders, so as to be able to assist at the aeroclub on a voluntary unpaid basis.
Now when I went to have my FI endorsement, I got into trouble, for the Italian CAA cannot write or stamp anything on a foreign licence.
And apparently the French despite JAR, and Easa agreements ( Jar's are not binding but Easa's should be) will not endorse my licence with a rating I have obtained in another JAr State.
Have had many phone calls with the French administration, apparently this is not an isolated case. So I went as far as sending a request to the highest levels: DGAC, Pôle d'Expertise du Personnel Navigant in Paris..
This was done 2 weeks ago by registered mail, let's see what they have to say. They anticipated they will discuss the matter in a meeting convened for that purpose (!!!!!!)
Also have been in touch with JAA offices in Holland, they are kept informed as well.
Of course I would have an alternative to sort tis out:
Relinquish my French JAR PPL and get the Italian JAR PPL Instead.
The reason I want to avoid doing this is because of the mess with italian administrations, always a nightmare to deal with them.
Also I hold an aerobatics rating and am working towards my mountain rating ....And these are under national legislation, not JAR's.
So there will be a problem there...Don't want to risk having to do them all over....
Don't know if you hold a UK FI(A) or French one, or if you have been through this yourself, but I would be interested to have your thoughts!!
Bye Aldo
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Instructing in Italy
Hi
I am just in the process of obtaining the relevant permissions to instruct in Italy. You need to register with ENAC and pay some taxes to ENGA but above all you need to have a letter offering you employment to start the process. It will take about 6 months to complete the process.
I am just in the process of obtaining the relevant permissions to instruct in Italy. You need to register with ENAC and pay some taxes to ENGA but above all you need to have a letter offering you employment to start the process. It will take about 6 months to complete the process.
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Thanks Touchngo!
The problem is that I cannot have my rating transcribed on my licence.
I am already fully registered with ENAC, having sustained the test with their inspector and can pay ENGA's fee but this will not solve my problem !!!
Would be easier if I could get a ENAC letterheaded paper certicate for the FI(A) like the CPL Theoretical. But it is not possible for it's not the procedure. Spent 3 days trying to sort this out in Rome at ENAC's office.
Rating needs to be endorsed on my licence. In the meantime I could get hold of the minutes of the practical FI(A) test from ENAC's files, of which I have a copy. This is the only proof in my posession but worth nothing...
The problem is that I cannot have my rating transcribed on my licence.
I am already fully registered with ENAC, having sustained the test with their inspector and can pay ENGA's fee but this will not solve my problem !!!
Would be easier if I could get a ENAC letterheaded paper certicate for the FI(A) like the CPL Theoretical. But it is not possible for it's not the procedure. Spent 3 days trying to sort this out in Rome at ENAC's office.
Rating needs to be endorsed on my licence. In the meantime I could get hold of the minutes of the practical FI(A) test from ENAC's files, of which I have a copy. This is the only proof in my posession but worth nothing...
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I am very surprised, even astonished that Susan has received permission to teach in France with (presumably?) a UK JAA FI.
I hold a French CPL/IR and was considering doing a UK FI. However, the French DGAC told me that it would not be recognised here in France and that if I wished to work as an instructor here I would have to do a French instructor rating.
I have a French friend here who has everything the other way round to me - he has UK CPL/IR and a French instructors rating, and he has no problem to work as an instructor in France.
The French are exceptionally obstructive about accepting qualifications from other JAA countries - they won't even accept my CAA FRTOL as evidence that I can speak English, and I have to go to Paris to have my English tested by a French examiner!
I hold a French CPL/IR and was considering doing a UK FI. However, the French DGAC told me that it would not be recognised here in France and that if I wished to work as an instructor here I would have to do a French instructor rating.
I have a French friend here who has everything the other way round to me - he has UK CPL/IR and a French instructors rating, and he has no problem to work as an instructor in France.
The French are exceptionally obstructive about accepting qualifications from other JAA countries - they won't even accept my CAA FRTOL as evidence that I can speak English, and I have to go to Paris to have my English tested by a French examiner!
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Hello Markkal,
As you clearly have some experience of dealing with the French and Italian authorities, I wonder if you could help with another enquiry on the same subject.
A few years ago I did my seaplane rating at the AeroClub di Como. I had the rating applied to my UK CAA PPL - the CAA had no problem accepting an Italian rating. I now have a French CPL, and I would like to renew the seaplane rating and get it transferred to my French CPL. What do you reckon the chances are of the French DGAC accepting this? Pretty small I would imagine - I expect they will only accept seaplane ratings done in France.
As you clearly have some experience of dealing with the French and Italian authorities, I wonder if you could help with another enquiry on the same subject.
A few years ago I did my seaplane rating at the AeroClub di Como. I had the rating applied to my UK CAA PPL - the CAA had no problem accepting an Italian rating. I now have a French CPL, and I would like to renew the seaplane rating and get it transferred to my French CPL. What do you reckon the chances are of the French DGAC accepting this? Pretty small I would imagine - I expect they will only accept seaplane ratings done in France.
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Hi Richatom,
I would bet that they would refuse the transfer. But I would try.
And nothing much you can do about it, seaplane, aeros, mountain flying are kept national, so even under EASA there would be no obligation to do so.
Common sense would suggest the opposite, as the UK CAA agreed to transcribe your seaplane rating, so did the Italian CAA for a mountain flying rating done in France by a friend of mine.
But if you hold a UK PPL where you have the rating transcribed, and a French CPL, you are in business anyway.
Not so with me, I have the French PPL and the Italian JAR Cpl Theoretical only. If I hade the full CPL licence, my problem would be solved, just have to endorse it with the FI(A).
I can have a PPL from one country and a CPL from another. But not 2 PPL's or 2 CPL's, there you have to choose. So here I am !!! stuck.
Don't want, neither have the means to complete the practical side of the CPL, another 8000 euros, no need for me my interest is in aerobatics only.
So for the time being my FI(A) is useless, and I will fight for my rights as a matter of principle, even if I have to give up in the end.
I will be posting here adresses and phone numbers of the people I am in touch with at the DGAC in France, JAA's in NL so that anyone with a similar problem can adress their claims...Just have to go look in my papers...
Good luck to all!!!
I would bet that they would refuse the transfer. But I would try.
And nothing much you can do about it, seaplane, aeros, mountain flying are kept national, so even under EASA there would be no obligation to do so.
Common sense would suggest the opposite, as the UK CAA agreed to transcribe your seaplane rating, so did the Italian CAA for a mountain flying rating done in France by a friend of mine.
But if you hold a UK PPL where you have the rating transcribed, and a French CPL, you are in business anyway.
Not so with me, I have the French PPL and the Italian JAR Cpl Theoretical only. If I hade the full CPL licence, my problem would be solved, just have to endorse it with the FI(A).
I can have a PPL from one country and a CPL from another. But not 2 PPL's or 2 CPL's, there you have to choose. So here I am !!! stuck.
Don't want, neither have the means to complete the practical side of the CPL, another 8000 euros, no need for me my interest is in aerobatics only.
So for the time being my FI(A) is useless, and I will fight for my rights as a matter of principle, even if I have to give up in the end.
I will be posting here adresses and phone numbers of the people I am in touch with at the DGAC in France, JAA's in NL so that anyone with a similar problem can adress their claims...Just have to go look in my papers...
Good luck to all!!!
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I've just had a reply from M. Courtois of the DGAC (and it was a very polite reply too 
) in which he writes:
"Vous pouvez effectuer une QC hydravion dans un centre de formation agréé au sein de tout pays FCL, cette qualification sera apposée par nos services sur présentation des documents suivants (qui sont généralement standards) :
- copie du certificat d'agrément FCL du centre de formation;
-copie du résumé de la formation ;
- test final;
-copie de l'agrément du testeur par une autorité FCL."
That's really fairly amazing from the DGAC as I fully expected them to insist that I redo my entire seaplane rating in France. They still obstinately refuse to accept my CAA FRTOL as evidence of ability to use English on the radio however.
) in which he writes:"Vous pouvez effectuer une QC hydravion dans un centre de formation agréé au sein de tout pays FCL, cette qualification sera apposée par nos services sur présentation des documents suivants (qui sont généralement standards) :
- copie du certificat d'agrément FCL du centre de formation;
-copie du résumé de la formation ;
- test final;
-copie de l'agrément du testeur par une autorité FCL."
That's really fairly amazing from the DGAC as I fully expected them to insist that I redo my entire seaplane rating in France. They still obstinately refuse to accept my CAA FRTOL as evidence of ability to use English on the radio however.
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GOOD !!!!!
Congratulations RICHATOM , seems things are on the move!!!!!
I expect an answer about my issue, let's see what they have to say...still waiting.
More or less the request for documents is in line with what I had anticipated and sent them, except for one.
Could be so kind to let me know, as you have the details, what they precisely mean by "Resume de la formation" it may help me so i can start gathering the documentation.
Do they want copies of each flight mission report carried out towards the rating signed by the instructor and kept in club's file ???
Thanks for letting me know, will keep you informed about my case too!!!
Good luck !!!!
Congratulations RICHATOM , seems things are on the move!!!!!
I expect an answer about my issue, let's see what they have to say...still waiting.
More or less the request for documents is in line with what I had anticipated and sent them, except for one.
Could be so kind to let me know, as you have the details, what they precisely mean by "Resume de la formation" it may help me so i can start gathering the documentation.
Do they want copies of each flight mission report carried out towards the rating signed by the instructor and kept in club's file ???
Thanks for letting me know, will keep you informed about my case too!!!
Good luck !!!!
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I have been trawling through the various threads to try to find an answer to this original question. This thread is 2 years old so I'm looking to see if anything has moved with respect to France - especially as EASA regulations will be coming into force in 2012. I have a UK issued JAR CPL/MEP/IR/FI. I'm very much a francophile and would love to live over there instructing. I know it's been done before and I'm will ing go through the 'pain' to get it done. I just need to know how to go about it. Any help greatly appreciated.
I'm very much a francophile and would love to live over there instructing.
There are a couple of FTOs in France where instruction is done in English - eg ESMA in Montpellier.
However, if you don't have French r/t skills then you can't fly safely in uncontrolled airspace, so that might limit your versatility to some employers.
However, if you don't have French r/t skills then you can't fly safely in uncontrolled airspace, so that might limit your versatility to some employers.