When will Instructors get paid properly?
Awesome but Affordable
VFE said - "Perhaps those who will be most affected by any non-professional scabs coming in will be well out of the game by then?"
What a w****r. My word has been carefully chosen as I am incensed.
Prior to 1988 and the BCPL I estimate that 80% of FI's were PPL's. Then those with a current FI rating were presented with BCPL(R) without any further examination or flight test. Were these non-professional scabs who instantly became professional scabs?
They were not scabs at all. The training they gave over many decades to the student pilots in the UK was fine. Equally as good, if not better, than is the case today.
Both before and after the paper process of professionalisation they were paid for the work they did while moaning about the size of their remuneration. So nothing changes there.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
What a w****r. My word has been carefully chosen as I am incensed.
Prior to 1988 and the BCPL I estimate that 80% of FI's were PPL's. Then those with a current FI rating were presented with BCPL(R) without any further examination or flight test. Were these non-professional scabs who instantly became professional scabs?
They were not scabs at all. The training they gave over many decades to the student pilots in the UK was fine. Equally as good, if not better, than is the case today.
Both before and after the paper process of professionalisation they were paid for the work they did while moaning about the size of their remuneration. So nothing changes there.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Well that's got a few (old) backs up! Not my intention...
The "non-professional scab" term was intended for those who'll work for free - thus undercutting those with the passion and commitment to make flying their life and living - not anyone who has the desire to instruct thru grandfather rights.
Am I still a ******?
VFE.
The "non-professional scab" term was intended for those who'll work for free - thus undercutting those with the passion and commitment to make flying their life and living - not anyone who has the desire to instruct thru grandfather rights.
Am I still a ******?
VFE.
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Old Saws and Scabs
Yes!
Get on with your own life and leave others to theirs. You will not get any more by denegrating others. Every one knows their worth and they don't need you to remind them.
If an instructor offers their time for nothing that is up to them, they do not need permission but when they do there are always strings attached, quite reasonably. All schools/clubs with the exception of a few particular set ups will wish to pay fees/wages to have, in return, a commitment from instructors.
The professional job of CFI and other full time and senior posts will be required just the same as will be the bulk of regular instructors.
As for the hour builders they will be needed too, once again as they always have been.
Get on with your own life and leave others to theirs. You will not get any more by denegrating others. Every one knows their worth and they don't need you to remind them.
If an instructor offers their time for nothing that is up to them, they do not need permission but when they do there are always strings attached, quite reasonably. All schools/clubs with the exception of a few particular set ups will wish to pay fees/wages to have, in return, a commitment from instructors.
The professional job of CFI and other full time and senior posts will be required just the same as will be the bulk of regular instructors.
As for the hour builders they will be needed too, once again as they always have been.
Awesome but Affordable
VFE,
Sorry mate you are outnumbered. Accept it and close this unsavoury aspect of an interesting thread.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
PS - I can recommend a masseuse to take care of any overworked muscles and ligaments in your arm..................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PPS - I will get my bike.
Sorry mate you are outnumbered. Accept it and close this unsavoury aspect of an interesting thread.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
PS - I can recommend a masseuse to take care of any overworked muscles and ligaments in your arm..................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PPS - I will get my bike.
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Although VFE put his point across in the wrong way i think that he may have a point. We have seen latley that instructors wages are starting to rise to an almost live-able rate and this is because that there is a shortage. In turn many people that i know are now willing to become flight instructors, as with the pay increase they are now able to eat and some can even afford bread to go with their beans. If PPLs start to become instructors, not only will the pay begin to fall again because others are willing to do the same job for free but the same people who were previously willing to become instructors wont because they simply can not afford to.
Having said that, I know many very experienced PPLs that would make fantastic instructors and I have learned a lot from flying with them. I just wish that they would be allowed to charge for the services.
Having said that, I know many very experienced PPLs that would make fantastic instructors and I have learned a lot from flying with them. I just wish that they would be allowed to charge for the services.
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Many years back I used to instruct at a 'club'* (i.e with Presidents, Chairmen, Honourable Secretarys etc). Club rules said that elected committee members couldn't accept money for instruction.
So, after coming in to work to expect a fullish days flying (at I think £7.50 per flight hour!), I found that many of my flights were appropriated by the committee, thus saving the club money. I then had to wait, with no retainer, for any extra work to turn up.
I'm not saying it will happen with non paid non-CPL FIs, but it's a business environment.
*as opposed to a 'flying school'.
So, after coming in to work to expect a fullish days flying (at I think £7.50 per flight hour!), I found that many of my flights were appropriated by the committee, thus saving the club money. I then had to wait, with no retainer, for any extra work to turn up.
I'm not saying it will happen with non paid non-CPL FIs, but it's a business environment.
*as opposed to a 'flying school'.
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Q:
A: When the schools/clubs develop a different business model, sell more products to more people and bring in more money.
There is an enormous appetite for "aviation" amongst the general public, but only a small percentage of that potential will ever be realised through the sale of the "PPL Lesson Product."
What most schools/clubs do have in abundance though is a classroom, knowledge base and enthusiasm which can be developed into spin off activities to allow the public to engage in aviation on a regular basis even though they may never actually learn to fly.
My first "job" in aviation was as a PPL ground instructor and imagine my surprise when I was told on arrival at said club that the classes were to be held in a local hotel and the ads had placed been in the local paper in anticipation! ...
The half a dozen or so club students duly arrived ... but so did 20 more interested members of the public at a tenner a throw. (late seventies tenner) Cracking good sessions, plenty of money for the club and instructor and a steady flow new students who'd been motivated to join when they knew more. Air Law, Nav etc can be fun... and profitable.
I cite this as one example, but I really do have plenty more ideas along these lines....
Obviously the primary role of flying instructors should be flying training but as employees they should also be given the opportunity to make more money directly or indirectly through participating in or coordinating secondary activities.
There should be no such thing as a "non activity (flying) day."
(Before the anticpated abuse starts I don`t expect many to agree with me, although I would imagine there are organisations that are geared up to this sort of approach... and others that wouldn`t want the hassle perhaps?)
When will Instructors get paid properly?
A: When the schools/clubs develop a different business model, sell more products to more people and bring in more money.
There is an enormous appetite for "aviation" amongst the general public, but only a small percentage of that potential will ever be realised through the sale of the "PPL Lesson Product."
What most schools/clubs do have in abundance though is a classroom, knowledge base and enthusiasm which can be developed into spin off activities to allow the public to engage in aviation on a regular basis even though they may never actually learn to fly.
My first "job" in aviation was as a PPL ground instructor and imagine my surprise when I was told on arrival at said club that the classes were to be held in a local hotel and the ads had placed been in the local paper in anticipation! ...
The half a dozen or so club students duly arrived ... but so did 20 more interested members of the public at a tenner a throw. (late seventies tenner) Cracking good sessions, plenty of money for the club and instructor and a steady flow new students who'd been motivated to join when they knew more. Air Law, Nav etc can be fun... and profitable.
I cite this as one example, but I really do have plenty more ideas along these lines....
Obviously the primary role of flying instructors should be flying training but as employees they should also be given the opportunity to make more money directly or indirectly through participating in or coordinating secondary activities.
There should be no such thing as a "non activity (flying) day."
(Before the anticpated abuse starts I don`t expect many to agree with me, although I would imagine there are organisations that are geared up to this sort of approach... and others that wouldn`t want the hassle perhaps?)
Awesome but Affordable
windriver,
Well you have one supporter. What a marvellous idea to attract those with a latent aviation interest. It worked then, I wonder if the same would work now? Worth trying I think.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
Well you have one supporter. What a marvellous idea to attract those with a latent aviation interest. It worked then, I wonder if the same would work now? Worth trying I think.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
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We have seen latley that instructors wages are starting to rise to an almost live-able rate
Nope, sorry for any offence caused folks - I can assure you this was not my intention. Of course, a certain amount of healthy controversy is always a good way of stimulating debate but my right arm is strong enough already (as G-KEST already intimated!) to require any more extra-curricular activities on the FI front!
Now then, EASA are working (and doing a good job IMHO) to sort out the poor (in places) standard of PPL instruction in a few isolated spots across the UK and I for one support them.
However, my gripe is that those who would make superb career instructors may be 'put off' the idea when those few experienced PPL'rs decide an FI rating is for them. I stand (as always) to be corrected but, in the good ole days, PPL holders with circa 200hrs became eligable to take the FIC, no?
Balance that with someone who, from the age of ten aspires to become an FI and then realises that wages are about £7.50/ flight hr (in the mid-80's AVeryCP?) then obviously much less than is already the presently low amount.
OK, forget 'scabs' and forget 'professional' terminology but we can see that the pointers indicate a trend towards the degradation of flight instruction purely on the basis that those who instruct under zero wages might not care as much as those whose livelihood rely upon their work.
"Discuss"
VFE.
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All schools/clubs with the exception of a few particular set ups will wish to pay fees/wages to have, in return, a commitment from instructors.
I would expect that most of the new PPL instructors will be low hours/low experience, looking for free flying to pad out their thin log-books. I don't believe that there is a pool of experienced philanthropists out there, keen to instruct every hour that God sends.
What's wrong with the term "scab"? Seems perfectly appropriate for someone who undermines my livelihood.
I can't understand why any current instructor would want to see the PPL-instructor introduced. The only benefits will accrue in the very short term and will solely be enjoyed by the owners of flying schools. Students and standards must suffer....why else was the old system abolished in favour of a requirement to hold a BCPL (as a minimum)?
As to calling people "w@@@ers"....well, that's the beauty of anonymous forums....they do make people brave.
Awesome but Affordable
bogbeagle said -
"I would expect that most of the new PPL instructors will be low hours/low experience, looking for free flying to pad out their thin log-books. I don't believe that there is a pool of experienced philanthropists out there, keen to instruct every hour that God sends."
I just might rephrase that a little -
I would expect that most of the new CPL/frozenATPL instructors are low hours/low experience, looking for any flying to pad out their thin log-books. I don't believe that there is a pool of experienced philanthropists out there, keen to instruct every hour that God sends.
Talking philanthropy I reckon the biggest philanthropists are those who invest an absolute fortune in order to gain a professional licence in the fervant hope that some airline will eventually hire them An airline that has gained a flight crew member without making any investment in the individuals training costs.
Its a funny old world.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
"I would expect that most of the new PPL instructors will be low hours/low experience, looking for free flying to pad out their thin log-books. I don't believe that there is a pool of experienced philanthropists out there, keen to instruct every hour that God sends."
I just might rephrase that a little -
I would expect that most of the new CPL/frozenATPL instructors are low hours/low experience, looking for any flying to pad out their thin log-books. I don't believe that there is a pool of experienced philanthropists out there, keen to instruct every hour that God sends.
Talking philanthropy I reckon the biggest philanthropists are those who invest an absolute fortune in order to gain a professional licence in the fervant hope that some airline will eventually hire them An airline that has gained a flight crew member without making any investment in the individuals training costs.
Its a funny old world.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
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We have seen latley that instructors wages are starting to rise to an almost live-able rate
Really? Tell me where.......
Really? Tell me where.......
You dont have to work for peanuts.
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A lively debate, interesting.
Personally, I am an instructor, I have been for a few months. I did the FI rating as a back-up for the possibility that I would not land that elusive airline job. The funny thing is, I actually enjoy it alot, and I think I do a bloody good job (i.e. I put my all into it), my students certainly get value for money.
The issue has come where I have actually landed my 1st airline job after a few months (very fortunate), but the funny thing is I kinda don't want to leave the instructing world, I really really enjoy it, the only issue is the wages, what I get paid does not even cover my mortgage (by a long way), let alone leave me a lifestyle that is "marginal".
Next month I will be joining the airlines, but if the wages were good enough I may have chosen to have been a career instructor, progressing to CPL/IR instruction etc. But again the wages do not dictate that I can wait around long enough to have the relevant experience, this is a crying shame, I am 34 and was willing to instruct for life.
Now as far as the topic goes about PPLs instructing, I can only say that I don't really agree that it is a path we should go down. The problem is though is that it is a catch 22 situ. Right now there is such a shortage of instructors that the standards have to be lowering, but on the other hand there is a shortage because the wages are so poor the schools are not magnets for the career instructor, the advent of the PPL instructor will erode the wages even further. I also agree that you will only attract the PPLs with little or no experience thus again lowering the standards somewhat, and yes the low houred fATPL only has 200 odd hrs as well, but I do feel having been through the system that the knowledge gained during my ATPLs has helped me answer the most testing questions from the students, (in no way am I saying I have superior knowledge) the reason I could do this is because instructing has re-enforced my knowledge because I have had to learn the relevant subjects inside out.
Can the PPL instructor offer this objectiveness? I am not sure.
Also I am no Red Barron or Chuck Yeager, but the worst pilots I have had through the school are the ones who have had their PPLs a while and are doing their bi-annual instructoral flight. The standard I have seen is quite frankly nothing short of shocking.
Personally, I am an instructor, I have been for a few months. I did the FI rating as a back-up for the possibility that I would not land that elusive airline job. The funny thing is, I actually enjoy it alot, and I think I do a bloody good job (i.e. I put my all into it), my students certainly get value for money.
The issue has come where I have actually landed my 1st airline job after a few months (very fortunate), but the funny thing is I kinda don't want to leave the instructing world, I really really enjoy it, the only issue is the wages, what I get paid does not even cover my mortgage (by a long way), let alone leave me a lifestyle that is "marginal".
Next month I will be joining the airlines, but if the wages were good enough I may have chosen to have been a career instructor, progressing to CPL/IR instruction etc. But again the wages do not dictate that I can wait around long enough to have the relevant experience, this is a crying shame, I am 34 and was willing to instruct for life.
Now as far as the topic goes about PPLs instructing, I can only say that I don't really agree that it is a path we should go down. The problem is though is that it is a catch 22 situ. Right now there is such a shortage of instructors that the standards have to be lowering, but on the other hand there is a shortage because the wages are so poor the schools are not magnets for the career instructor, the advent of the PPL instructor will erode the wages even further. I also agree that you will only attract the PPLs with little or no experience thus again lowering the standards somewhat, and yes the low houred fATPL only has 200 odd hrs as well, but I do feel having been through the system that the knowledge gained during my ATPLs has helped me answer the most testing questions from the students, (in no way am I saying I have superior knowledge) the reason I could do this is because instructing has re-enforced my knowledge because I have had to learn the relevant subjects inside out.
Can the PPL instructor offer this objectiveness? I am not sure.
Also I am no Red Barron or Chuck Yeager, but the worst pilots I have had through the school are the ones who have had their PPLs a while and are doing their bi-annual instructoral flight. The standard I have seen is quite frankly nothing short of shocking.
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PPL holders with circa 200hrs became eligable to take the FIC,
VFE.
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I stand (as always) to be corrected but, in the good ole days, PPL holders with circa 200hrs became eligable to take the FIC, no?
Fact:-
JAR–FCL 1.335 FI(A) – Pre-requisite requirements
(See Appendix 3 to JARFCL 1.240)
(See Appendix 1 to JARFCL 1.470)
Before being permitted to begin an approved course of training for a FI(A) rating an applicant shall have:
(a) at least a CPL(A) or completed at least 200 hours of flight time of which 150 hours as pilot-in-command if holding a PPL(A);
(See Appendix 3 to JARFCL 1.240)
(See Appendix 1 to JARFCL 1.470)
Before being permitted to begin an approved course of training for a FI(A) rating an applicant shall have:
(a) at least a CPL(A) or completed at least 200 hours of flight time of which 150 hours as pilot-in-command if holding a PPL(A);
You do need a CPL or higher in order to do Aerial Work. Currently exemptions exist to allow a PPL holder to carry out Aerial Work in certain circumstances. These include Glider Towing, Parachute Dropping and Microlight Instruction. Paid instruction is Aerial Work, unpaid instruction is not.
Under the present regime it is customary for an aspiring ATPL to do his professional exams and get a (woefully underpaid) job as an FI to build his hours to a level where he gets a chance at the all-important airline interview. While he's doing this his ratings lapse and require renewal and he's paying interest on the big loan, which is making him poorer.
How's this for an alternative?
ANO gets amended to permit paid instruction by a PPL/FI.
Airline candidate gets his PPL, 200 Hrs and does his FI course.
Builds his hours as an FI on a Class 2 medical rather than a Class 1 (less expense, a Class 1 is NOT required to instruct)
When he feels ready he goes off and does his professional training and presents himself for interview with fresh ratings and his head full of all the things he might get asked. A friend of mine is now flying Citations having carried the interest on circa 100k for a couple of years. This route would have made his life a heck of a lot easier.
From a safety perspective:-
The CPL requirement for paid instruction was introduced in the 1970's, one assumes with the intention of improving standards, however it has (IMHO) not made a blind bit of difference. The fact that instruction by a PPL/FI has equal standing under JAR as that by a CPL/FI or ATPL/FI bears out this view.
What has made a difference is changes in the syllabus and the exam regime for PPL candidates and also changes in the requirements for obtaining and maintaining an FI rating.
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*Best Jeremy Paxman drawl*
Yeeeeeeeeers, I fearded you'd say that, AVeryCP.
Look guys, we all have valid points and you sure as **** is brown ain't gonna stop me from looking down my nose at those arseholes who offer up their services for free at the FTO were I work, especially when I'm struggling (and I do f-ing well mean STRUGGLING!) to pay my bills having taken this on as a proper vocation in my life.
Yes, it is a jolly jape being up amongst those clouds, I feel sure there are those out there who could do it better than myself, yes I am to blame for taking "the plunge" (many dare not) and yes, I should probably pull my finger out and get an airline job but yanno what? I like instructing and don't think it beyond the realms of reason to make those who wish to get to my (so veeeeery veeeeeery lowly) position in the aviation sphere study for it.
You learn f--k all on a PPL course (I should know - I teach it!), much less when you start flying on your Jack Jones. I should know, I did a PPL and then decided to 'go commercial' later.
Those who disagree know this too but care to ignore the obvious. We all know that those who have held PPL's for many years are the most dangerous - had one pull the mixture to ICO in the circuit last week in fact, on a checkout.... and then witnessed the stall warner blaring out from base leg onwards as they grapled with the controls..... a regular and respected member of the club too,,,,,,,, but I digress....
Being eligible to be an instructor of flight (IMVHO) means - undertaking a professional course of study, going thru the motions, deciding that teaching is the vocation for you and becoming a member of a professional body after putting your money where your gob is. £6K on a PPL is pittance when you consider what my family and I have been thru. MY CFI has grandfather rights and knows f--k all about the weather to be honest. I keep shtum but it narks me guys.... as you can probably tell.
And if you don't like that? Well you can kiss my arse.
VFE.
Yeeeeeeeeers, I fearded you'd say that, AVeryCP.
Look guys, we all have valid points and you sure as **** is brown ain't gonna stop me from looking down my nose at those arseholes who offer up their services for free at the FTO were I work, especially when I'm struggling (and I do f-ing well mean STRUGGLING!) to pay my bills having taken this on as a proper vocation in my life.
Yes, it is a jolly jape being up amongst those clouds, I feel sure there are those out there who could do it better than myself, yes I am to blame for taking "the plunge" (many dare not) and yes, I should probably pull my finger out and get an airline job but yanno what? I like instructing and don't think it beyond the realms of reason to make those who wish to get to my (so veeeeery veeeeeery lowly) position in the aviation sphere study for it.
You learn f--k all on a PPL course (I should know - I teach it!), much less when you start flying on your Jack Jones. I should know, I did a PPL and then decided to 'go commercial' later.
Those who disagree know this too but care to ignore the obvious. We all know that those who have held PPL's for many years are the most dangerous - had one pull the mixture to ICO in the circuit last week in fact, on a checkout.... and then witnessed the stall warner blaring out from base leg onwards as they grapled with the controls..... a regular and respected member of the club too,,,,,,,, but I digress....
Being eligible to be an instructor of flight (IMVHO) means - undertaking a professional course of study, going thru the motions, deciding that teaching is the vocation for you and becoming a member of a professional body after putting your money where your gob is. £6K on a PPL is pittance when you consider what my family and I have been thru. MY CFI has grandfather rights and knows f--k all about the weather to be honest. I keep shtum but it narks me guys.... as you can probably tell.
And if you don't like that? Well you can kiss my arse.
VFE.
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And if you don't like that? Well you can kiss my arse.
The issue that is causing you so much grief is the same issue that affects many popular jobs. If you want a job as a ski instructor, a flotilla sailing skipper, a dive instructor, parachuting, gliding, white-water rafting etc etc you will find that you get plenty of responsibility but not much pay. That unfortunately is the name of the game. If the activity is popular people are willing to do it for not much money.
If you add in the hour builders who are doing it as a means to an airline job rather than as a vocation and the professional pilots doing it between jobs or because they enjoy flying light aircraft in their spare time then it makes lfe very difficult for someone who is a committed professional career instructor. This isn't a new phenomenon, it's been like that for years and would certainly have been like that when you got qualified.
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Part timers, enthusiasts and hours builders can all add to the Total Club/School Product.
Given this ridiculous trend for permanent staff instructors to be paid by the flying hour I tend to agree with VFE about instructors prospects.
If these people are happy to fly for nothing (and why not) it shouldn`t mean that the students shouldn`t not continue to pay a professional rate for professional services and the proceeds used to bolster staff salaries.
Often the part timers can take on some of the flying duties releasing the instructors for classroom work, long briefings, syllabus development, networking (drumming up trade) in the community etc etc.
Given this ridiculous trend for permanent staff instructors to be paid by the flying hour I tend to agree with VFE about instructors prospects.
If these people are happy to fly for nothing (and why not) it shouldn`t mean that the students shouldn`t not continue to pay a professional rate for professional services and the proceeds used to bolster staff salaries.
Often the part timers can take on some of the flying duties releasing the instructors for classroom work, long briefings, syllabus development, networking (drumming up trade) in the community etc etc.