Instructing/Airline flying (FTL,s)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
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My bad behaviour? Offering my services for free is my choice and I do not see how it effects paid instructors in any manner (and as a matter of point, I give my money to charity....). I have already explained the reason why I think you are paid so badly and it is nothing to do with me. So who is paranoid here?
I think maybe the paranoia lies firmly with you. You are unhappy with your lot as far as pay and conditions are concerned and seem to think projecting the blame onto me is somehow going to improve things or at least make you feel better. However if it makes you feel better then I am all for it, perhaps it's a new service I could offer and it seems you are forcing me to give it for free....
At the end of the day at our airfield we have 60 odd aviators and no FTO so are you really expecting these people to go and join a club just to fly with an Instructor and therefore somehow improve your pay and conditions? I suspect that it would have zero impact. However if there was suddenly a vacuum caused by a lack of instructors because hours builders could not/need not use this route the FTO's would have to pay what you are no doubt worth.
I think maybe the paranoia lies firmly with you. You are unhappy with your lot as far as pay and conditions are concerned and seem to think projecting the blame onto me is somehow going to improve things or at least make you feel better. However if it makes you feel better then I am all for it, perhaps it's a new service I could offer and it seems you are forcing me to give it for free....
At the end of the day at our airfield we have 60 odd aviators and no FTO so are you really expecting these people to go and join a club just to fly with an Instructor and therefore somehow improve your pay and conditions? I suspect that it would have zero impact. However if there was suddenly a vacuum caused by a lack of instructors because hours builders could not/need not use this route the FTO's would have to pay what you are no doubt worth.
Last edited by S-Works; 18th Mar 2007 at 14:47.
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Bose-X wrote:
...However if there was suddenly a vacuum caused by a lack of instructors because hours builders could not/need not use this route the FTO's would have to pay what you are no doubt worth.....
It may interest all on this thread to know that I pay my microlight instructors 35 per hour and am paying (sponsoring, he'll pay back at a fiver per training hour) for one keen chap to do his microlight instructor's course to train on the C42 Ikarus (which has the identical airframe in both microlight and light aircraft versions).
So, the finger is right on the button when pointed at the regulators who would insist that he'd need 60k of training instead of 4k of training to teach the owner of a light aircraft C42 instead of a microlight one.
And one trained on the microlight one, you just need three hours with a 60k instuctor to get an NPPL light aicraft licence!
Roll on the microlight instructors being allowed to teach SEP NPPL from unlicenced fields. It may not make flying much cheaper but it will sure mean a decent wage for instructors, and maybe a better chance of flying schools surviving instead of going to the wall as actually hapens quite frequently.
As regards bus drivers, I ask would-be instructors: do you want to earn the wage of a bus driver, train driver or airline pilot?
I regard that as 14k, 30+K and 50k.
Whatever they reply, my answer is that my aim is that they earn at least 20k, and hopefully a bit more which will take them to the national average wage.
I need instructors to fly so as I can run a school! (And earn about 20k from that!)
Very best to all.
...However if there was suddenly a vacuum caused by a lack of instructors because hours builders could not/need not use this route the FTO's would have to pay what you are no doubt worth.....
It may interest all on this thread to know that I pay my microlight instructors 35 per hour and am paying (sponsoring, he'll pay back at a fiver per training hour) for one keen chap to do his microlight instructor's course to train on the C42 Ikarus (which has the identical airframe in both microlight and light aircraft versions).
So, the finger is right on the button when pointed at the regulators who would insist that he'd need 60k of training instead of 4k of training to teach the owner of a light aircraft C42 instead of a microlight one.
And one trained on the microlight one, you just need three hours with a 60k instuctor to get an NPPL light aicraft licence!
Roll on the microlight instructors being allowed to teach SEP NPPL from unlicenced fields. It may not make flying much cheaper but it will sure mean a decent wage for instructors, and maybe a better chance of flying schools surviving instead of going to the wall as actually hapens quite frequently.
As regards bus drivers, I ask would-be instructors: do you want to earn the wage of a bus driver, train driver or airline pilot?
I regard that as 14k, 30+K and 50k.
Whatever they reply, my answer is that my aim is that they earn at least 20k, and hopefully a bit more which will take them to the national average wage.
I need instructors to fly so as I can run a school! (And earn about 20k from that!)
Very best to all.
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Regarding not being paid when not flying -
A few years ago the Inland Revenue (UK) ruled that all the time an instructor was at his / her base or airport they had to be paid at least the minimum wage. ie if you spent 6 days a week 8 hours a day + all November hanging around the flight school waiting for (a) a student (b) some weather that was remotly good enough to fly in and (c) a servicable aircraft but only flew 2 or 3 hours and your employer only paid you for those hours you have probably bin robbed.
Also some companies will require you to get permision even if you are not paid when instructing.
A few years ago the Inland Revenue (UK) ruled that all the time an instructor was at his / her base or airport they had to be paid at least the minimum wage. ie if you spent 6 days a week 8 hours a day + all November hanging around the flight school waiting for (a) a student (b) some weather that was remotly good enough to fly in and (c) a servicable aircraft but only flew 2 or 3 hours and your employer only paid you for those hours you have probably bin robbed.
Also some companies will require you to get permision even if you are not paid when instructing.
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Cor Blimey!!!
Some good info there guys......and some varied opinions. My main reason for wanting to get back to Instructing is for the sheer enjoyment of it! I had heard that there may be a 'technicality' re; 'not for hire or reward' but the reason I asked this was just for clarification. It certainly isn't my intention to fly for free as I am mindful of the many Instructors who are doing fine jobs for very poor financial reward.
It actually looks as though I won't be able to continue with the Instructing as I do go pretty close to the 900 hours already
...shame because I have lots of Instructing hours under my belt and probably have some experience to offer..........seems like I'll be looking for a (cheap) share in a Cessna 150
Some good info there guys......and some varied opinions. My main reason for wanting to get back to Instructing is for the sheer enjoyment of it! I had heard that there may be a 'technicality' re; 'not for hire or reward' but the reason I asked this was just for clarification. It certainly isn't my intention to fly for free as I am mindful of the many Instructors who are doing fine jobs for very poor financial reward.
It actually looks as though I won't be able to continue with the Instructing as I do go pretty close to the 900 hours already
...shame because I have lots of Instructing hours under my belt and probably have some experience to offer..........seems like I'll be looking for a (cheap) share in a Cessna 150
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A few years ago the Inland Revenue (UK) ruled that all the time an instructor was at his / her base or airport they had to be paid at least the minimum wage.
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Bose - In relation to the £13 Per Hour you have missed one crucial point.
From my experience of four flying schools I have worked for, 100% pay for the flying hour, which when slotted into a flying program equates to between £6.00 to £9.00.
So £6.00 is hardly ground breaking stuff when one considers the role in which an instructor is playing.
From my experience of four flying schools I have worked for, 100% pay for the flying hour, which when slotted into a flying program equates to between £6.00 to £9.00.
So £6.00 is hardly ground breaking stuff when one considers the role in which an instructor is playing.
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I really don't know why you keep labouring the point with me. I have the greatest sympathy for the crap wages FI's earn. I have also outlined the reasons why I think this is the case.
So go bang your head against someone elses wall please.
So go bang your head against someone elses wall please.
Join Date: May 2003
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why are all 'hour builders' such bad FI's?
Hello,
Why is it that some see that all FI's who have the ambition for a different part of the industry, e.g. the airlines, make such poor instructors who deserve to be treated (and paid) pretty poorly my many schools?
I agree there are always exceptions to the rule, but all of my past and present colleagues who have moved on to (or are seeking to) other parts of the industry have only ever had the best intentions for their students and have passed their knowledge on passionately and professionally for the good of the student and therefore the school. Just beacause they have their own career ambition certainly does not make them a poor quality instructor!
If the other issue pointed out is they only stay with a school for a short period of time then i think this is a direct result of the poor pay conditions. Most FI's (myself included) love instructing and would gladly spend a longer period of our careers doing so... if it was possible to feed our families and pay the mortgage without having to work 2 jobs (such as I do).
Most 'hour builder' FI's are worth just as much to their students as career FI's so why cant we be treated fairly?
just my 2 cents worth!
Why is it that some see that all FI's who have the ambition for a different part of the industry, e.g. the airlines, make such poor instructors who deserve to be treated (and paid) pretty poorly my many schools?
I agree there are always exceptions to the rule, but all of my past and present colleagues who have moved on to (or are seeking to) other parts of the industry have only ever had the best intentions for their students and have passed their knowledge on passionately and professionally for the good of the student and therefore the school. Just beacause they have their own career ambition certainly does not make them a poor quality instructor!
If the other issue pointed out is they only stay with a school for a short period of time then i think this is a direct result of the poor pay conditions. Most FI's (myself included) love instructing and would gladly spend a longer period of our careers doing so... if it was possible to feed our families and pay the mortgage without having to work 2 jobs (such as I do).
Most 'hour builder' FI's are worth just as much to their students as career FI's so why cant we be treated fairly?
just my 2 cents worth!
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My God, bose-x - I'm amazed you are still talking such nonsense. Do you have any involvement with flight training? The reason flying instructors are paid such low wages is that there is simply a very low profit margin in flight training. I work at a small school with only myself and the CFI. The CFI is a career instructor and he doesn't get a particularly large wage either.
I know how much it costs for our rent, bills, aircraft maintenance, fuel, parking etc... I also know how much we charge per hour. If I do the Maths then I realise that the club owners simply cannot afford to pay me any more!
The idea that the flying schools pay us so badly is because they think they can **** on us because we're only using them for hours, is pure crap I'm afraid.
And another thing, generalising about hour-builders being crap instructors and not caring about their students is a tad offensive, don't you think. I personally take my job very seriously. I apply the same high standards to it as I plan to do with my future airline career. I have also done a number of non-aviation temp jobs and have applied high standards to those as well.
TB
I know how much it costs for our rent, bills, aircraft maintenance, fuel, parking etc... I also know how much we charge per hour. If I do the Maths then I realise that the club owners simply cannot afford to pay me any more!
The idea that the flying schools pay us so badly is because they think they can **** on us because we're only using them for hours, is pure crap I'm afraid.
And another thing, generalising about hour-builders being crap instructors and not caring about their students is a tad offensive, don't you think. I personally take my job very seriously. I apply the same high standards to it as I plan to do with my future airline career. I have also done a number of non-aviation temp jobs and have applied high standards to those as well.
TB
