Sideslipping high wing cessnas with flaps
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Sideslipping high wing cessnas with flaps
What are instructors and examiners views of sideslipping high wing Cessnas with full ( or even partial ) flaps deployed? Some pilots and instructors seem to think it perfectly acceptable and unremarkable, and others say it is a definite no no ( blanking of elevator and rudder etc) Some POH's seem to discourage it, some (I have been told) prohibit it, and some seem to make no mention of the subject. Those Cessnas with 40 degree flap settings come down like the proverbial with full flap, but I have found that those with only 30 degrees could sometimes do with a bit of encouragement.
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The C152s I fly have no restrictions in the POH. Therefore I both teach it, and have no problem with it as an examiner.
This is one of those myths like 'PA28s aren't cleared for spinning'. I believe there are some models of C172 where it is prohibited in the POH, and possible C150 as well. However the advice in all cases is simple...
Read the POH. If it prohibits it - dont. If it doesnt mention it - its not prohibited - so there is no problem.
In all a/c you fly - make sure you know the a/c you fly!!!
This is one of those myths like 'PA28s aren't cleared for spinning'. I believe there are some models of C172 where it is prohibited in the POH, and possible C150 as well. However the advice in all cases is simple...
Read the POH. If it prohibits it - dont. If it doesnt mention it - its not prohibited - so there is no problem.
In all a/c you fly - make sure you know the a/c you fly!!!
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Also know what you are talking about. PA28s are only cleared for spinning when the Cof G is within the limits laid down by the POH so dont try it with 4 pax!
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Whopity,
S-turns can be just as effective to lose altitude as a sideslip or flap. However, only for forced landing practice.
S-turns can be a bit dicey if you're on late final and trying to encourage the student to maintain a stabilised approach. Because they not only have to descend the aircraft back onto the normal glideslope but they now have to realign themselves with the RWY.
In mention of the original post, I too also agree with FormationFlyer.
If it's permitted in the Flight Manual go nuts.
If it's not permitted, then you're opening up a whole can of worms if you do it, even if you're more 'experienced types' say that it's fine.
S-turns can be just as effective to lose altitude as a sideslip or flap. However, only for forced landing practice.
S-turns can be a bit dicey if you're on late final and trying to encourage the student to maintain a stabilised approach. Because they not only have to descend the aircraft back onto the normal glideslope but they now have to realign themselves with the RWY.
In mention of the original post, I too also agree with FormationFlyer.
If it's permitted in the Flight Manual go nuts.
If it's not permitted, then you're opening up a whole can of worms if you do it, even if you're more 'experienced types' say that it's fine.
But they should be going arround if they are not on a stabilised approach! The question related to aircraft handling not how to teach a student to fly an approach. If you were on a stabilised approach you would not be looking to sideslip either unless you are flying wing down!
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Quite. To clarify for those who havent heard the myth...The myth I was talking about was the blanket statement that PA28s cant spin. Some can - the PA28 140 for instance - whereas pretty much all the others I have come across prohibit it. However as you say it does have to be done within the utility category.
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Quite. To clarify for those who havent heard the myth...The myth I was talking about was the blanket statement that PA28s cant spin. Some can - the PA28 140 for instance - whereas pretty much all the others I have come across prohibit it. However as you say it does have to be done within the utility category.
Well at least the blanket statement kept everyone safe for plenty of time who was not able or knowledgable enough to, but may have been impressionable enough, to go off and try something that they ought not too. The majority of PA28 variants are clearly placarded expressly prohibiting spinning in the utility and public transport categories and also within there P.O.H.'s. The fact that some in the know may have flown every variant of a wide scope of aircraft like the PA28 with can go from underpowered chopped wings machines to complex types both T-tailed and conventionall and the same tail and wing are even on a tandem seated basic military trainer/toy (admittedly not called a PA 28 but very similar) means that at least for the one variant which then needs a closely checked C of G to ensure the caveats are met for it to then be used for spinning, seems all a little dangerous for me. ( not the spinning )
The point is Formation Flyer I am sure you know what you are doing however I am also acutely aware of the impressionable ways of many private/student even instructor pilots who having read a post with a phrase suposedly dispelling a myth may not have bothered to read the whole caveats or understood them particularly because you left it a number of days to eloborate your statement. I'm all for a bit of poking fun and crew room banter to ellicit a response but maybe on a medium such as this it is better to elaborate and not leave a topic hanging if you know the answer yourself.
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The point is Formation Flyer I am sure you know what you are doing however I am also acutely aware of the impressionable ways of many private/student even instructor pilots who having read a post with a phrase suposedly dispelling a myth may not have bothered to read the whole caveats or understood them particularly because you left it a number of days to eloborate your statement.
However to suggest that pilots/students reading this forum might be gullible enough to go and spin an aircraft on the basis of a forum posting is quite ridiculous. If you do know anyone like this please stop them getting into ANY aeroplane - I for one dont ever want to meet this sort of person in the air - In all my years as an instructor I have yet to meet any pilot nor taught any students I would say are possibly this stupid. I think aviation training has a nice habit of keeping such people away from aircraft.
The post was not about dispelling the PA28 myth - that was an offhand comment in regard to a widely held view outside of the instructor community in which I am posting. My comments were about the sideslip with flap myth which I did fully describe at the time of posting.
I think you are being somewhat over-sensitive and if I worried about every tiny comment I ever made being mis-read and acted upon by an idiot then I would probably have to stay very very quiet....which one or two people might say is a good thing
I would imagine you never say the phrase 'go and stick your head in an oven' in case someone who overheard you actually went and did it without being fully aware of the potential dangers of gas inhilation...
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Aviation training keeps stupid people away from aircraft!
However to suggest that pilots/students reading this forum might be gullible enough to go and spin an aircraft on the basis of a forum posting is quite ridiculous. If you do know anyone like this please stop them getting into ANY aeroplane - I for one dont ever want to meet this sort of person in the air - In all my years as an instructor I have yet to meet any pilot nor taught any students I would say are possibly this stupid. I think aviation training has a nice habit of keeping such people away from aircraft.
Professional instructors should be just that, professional and that means making clear unambiguous statements and setting an example for the many low hour inexperienced PPLs that will read these posts.
I have seen too many incidents were cavalier remarks by instructors have influenced low hour pilots. Encouragement to fly in poor weather, flying into short strips, crossing controlled airspace spring to mind.
I remember an over confident tug pilot at Shobdon demonstrating to 3 other pax in a PA28-180 how he could spin it(he had been told that the PA28 was docile in a spin by an instructor.) after loosing around 3000 feet trying to pull out the instructor sitting in the back leant forward to try and rescue the situation with the throttle. They reckon his weight shift saved the day. But they were now around 300ft agl and the tug pilot pulled so hard to avoid hitting the ground both wings needed replacing afterwards They all end up in Leominster magistrates court and the aircraft is still flying today, G-AWXS.
Sadly aviation training dosnt keep stupid instructors away from flying!
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Professional instructors should be just that, professional and that means making clear unambiguous statements and setting an example for the many low hour inexperienced PPLs that will read these posts
FFF
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Which I believe you will find I emphasized pretty heavily in my initial post...
There is clear an umambiguous - which I whole-heartedly support...and then there is the politcally correct crew who take the whole thing one step further and now I cant say 'put your head in an oven' because now Im insighting a dangerous act.
Get real folks and lighten up. Instructing is not about detailed analysis of every word every said at face value - if you did that than 90% of the concepts behind humour would be completely missed.
Next youll be saying that I shouldnt say 'that was firm' in reply to a student who thought it was a bad landing. maybe I should be 'clear and unambiguous'...???
There is clear an umambiguous - which I whole-heartedly support...and then there is the politcally correct crew who take the whole thing one step further and now I cant say 'put your head in an oven' because now Im insighting a dangerous act.
Get real folks and lighten up. Instructing is not about detailed analysis of every word every said at face value - if you did that than 90% of the concepts behind humour would be completely missed.
Next youll be saying that I shouldnt say 'that was firm' in reply to a student who thought it was a bad landing. maybe I should be 'clear and unambiguous'...???
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Back to the subject
I have read the C152 POH and says nothing about tailplane stall. Although i could have missed it.
I haver thrown aerobats around (got the apprpriate cert. in case anyone jumps down my throat) and have not had it happen on a 152. But I am sure it's possible.
But, I have intentionally been in a tailplane stall on a flight test in a europa. It was intended. If anyone has not experienced it, it's a bit saucy .
Best thing is not to give ourselves or especially students the idea of pole'ing the aircraft that much to induce one.
I still would not contemplate spinning a PA28 of any king from less than 30,000 feet with an airbag, side impact bars and a matter transfer device to beam me out.
I haver thrown aerobats around (got the apprpriate cert. in case anyone jumps down my throat) and have not had it happen on a 152. But I am sure it's possible.
But, I have intentionally been in a tailplane stall on a flight test in a europa. It was intended. If anyone has not experienced it, it's a bit saucy .
Best thing is not to give ourselves or especially students the idea of pole'ing the aircraft that much to induce one.
I still would not contemplate spinning a PA28 of any king from less than 30,000 feet with an airbag, side impact bars and a matter transfer device to beam me out.
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Used to fly Cessna seaplanes in the mountains in Canada, and side slipping with full flaps was the only way to get in to some places. It works fine if you keep an eye on the IAS.
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Well, I deduce from responses, that in the absence of anything in the POH to prevent me from continuing with full flap sideslips in my C206, I shall continue to do so, hopefully with impunity. It was really the kind of responses based on experience and advice I was looking for, and for that I am indebted to Polar bear
My own experience is exactly as he has mentioned although I am familiar with the very alarming snap and flick which can be induced by very low airspeed withsideslip, it has not caused me any problems in practice given adequate airspeed. Just wondered what others findings were on this count. Many thanks for all remarks.
Incidentally. I can think of a few PA28s which wouldn't leave the ground with four on board, never mind spin.....
My own experience is exactly as he has mentioned although I am familiar with the very alarming snap and flick which can be induced by very low airspeed withsideslip, it has not caused me any problems in practice given adequate airspeed. Just wondered what others findings were on this count. Many thanks for all remarks.Incidentally. I can think of a few PA28s which wouldn't leave the ground with four on board, never mind spin.....
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People will always make mistakes and some will always be gullible to try anothers weird suggestions it's human nature and if you really think that just because there is a sign saying Instructors/Examiners then none else shall read it then you are sadly mistaken.
TRE's IRE's et al. run out of fuel or forget the gear as do mere mortals and students and others try inverted spins when erect was all the P.O.H. cleared it for and solo students do try to formate and climb into airways and push on into cloud and some get away with it and never think the better of it . Some scare them selves silly and learn a valuable lesson that they should never have had to the hard way with the worst outcome being a broken aircraft and a damaged pride and others sadly die. If you feel they should never have gotten into the air in the first place and that instructors should be able to 'see' those traits and stop them before they ever got to that gullible stage then you are mistaken in my opinion. It is up to the those who can to pass on the wisdom, and not to just throw things out there that they know to be wrong, indeed dangerous, without a measured and thoughtful explanation. Unless of course you are asking the question in the first place in which case lets hope you get a measured and thoughful response.
If you do not think students take things at face value then I wonder how many students you've taught especially without the privelage of having English as their first or even second language. If you are not clear and concise and deliberate in your choice of words with the brief and post flight discussion then you'll be in for some very interesting times and once you wonder how you got there and ponder your own actions and words you'll eventually realise the student did exactly as instructed.
TRE's IRE's et al. run out of fuel or forget the gear as do mere mortals and students and others try inverted spins when erect was all the P.O.H. cleared it for and solo students do try to formate and climb into airways and push on into cloud and some get away with it and never think the better of it . Some scare them selves silly and learn a valuable lesson that they should never have had to the hard way with the worst outcome being a broken aircraft and a damaged pride and others sadly die. If you feel they should never have gotten into the air in the first place and that instructors should be able to 'see' those traits and stop them before they ever got to that gullible stage then you are mistaken in my opinion. It is up to the those who can to pass on the wisdom, and not to just throw things out there that they know to be wrong, indeed dangerous, without a measured and thoughtful explanation. Unless of course you are asking the question in the first place in which case lets hope you get a measured and thoughful response.
If you do not think students take things at face value then I wonder how many students you've taught especially without the privelage of having English as their first or even second language. If you are not clear and concise and deliberate in your choice of words with the brief and post flight discussion then you'll be in for some very interesting times and once you wonder how you got there and ponder your own actions and words you'll eventually realise the student did exactly as instructed.
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/aviation/faq/section-18.html
Interesting comment in that link given by Bookworm.
In over 2500 hrs flying Cessna 170's, both the small flapped 'A' model, and the Fowler flapped 'B' model, and always using full flap forward slips to get into fields and farm roads - never a sign of instability in pitch or any tendency to snap. So, I'm unsure about their advice.
Have also used a slipped approach for many hours of farm and bush flying in Cessna 180's and 185's, Cessna 182's, and SuperCubs - and no particular problems.
Have found that it's best to cease the slip above the treetops, or anywhere that windshear might be lurking, so that there's some spare height and speed to allow for a roundout.
happy days,
In over 2500 hrs flying Cessna 170's, both the small flapped 'A' model, and the Fowler flapped 'B' model, and always using full flap forward slips to get into fields and farm roads - never a sign of instability in pitch or any tendency to snap. So, I'm unsure about their advice.
Have also used a slipped approach for many hours of farm and bush flying in Cessna 180's and 185's, Cessna 182's, and SuperCubs - and no particular problems.
Have found that it's best to cease the slip above the treetops, or anywhere that windshear might be lurking, so that there's some spare height and speed to allow for a roundout.
happy days,