25 solo sign-offs
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Not at all Jinks, by the time you achieve the 25 sign offs, assuming you dont poach someone elses who is allready unrestricted! you may just have the skills required to judge if a student is ready to solo.
Totally agree, Jinkster.
Time we went back to the old "6 months and an upgrade check."
Much more sensible (and instructor-friendly.)
Btw, nearly as daft as insisting on using an FIC X for the removal of an aerobatic limitation. How many FIC Xs do you know who are current aerobatic instructors ?? (Sorry, off thread !!)
It'll happen but not in your time, I'm afraid.
Good luck.
Time we went back to the old "6 months and an upgrade check."
Much more sensible (and instructor-friendly.)
Btw, nearly as daft as insisting on using an FIC X for the removal of an aerobatic limitation. How many FIC Xs do you know who are current aerobatic instructors ?? (Sorry, off thread !!)
It'll happen but not in your time, I'm afraid.
Good luck.
It is a stupid requirement indeed. Why not make it 100/25 or 6 months plus a FI proficiency check - whichever the applicant chooses?
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And who will pay for the check? An hour with an FIE plus aircraft hire will come in over £200. Hardly fair for a struggling FI(R).
While I'm in a rant mood, why the heck are FIC seminars so sodding expensive? 250 squid just to spend two days being waffled at, being told stuff you already know. And why are they all run down south. It's a 1300 mile round trip for me, and add on the cost of hotels as well. Bleedin liberty is what it is.
While I'm in a rant mood, why the heck are FIC seminars so sodding expensive? 250 squid just to spend two days being waffled at, being told stuff you already know. And why are they all run down south. It's a 1300 mile round trip for me, and add on the cost of hotels as well. Bleedin liberty is what it is.
Time we went back to the old "6 months and an upgrade check."
Attempts were made to run Northern Seminars but there were so few applicants it proved to be a dead loss.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I don't know about anyone else here, but as well as needing the experience to judge when a student is ready for solo (as FlyingFarmer says), I know I made a few bad calls for other reasons when I first qualified as an instructor. Like the student whom I sent for solo circuits less than an hour before official night. Or the time I sent an early student to "get a couple of circuits in before that weather arrives".
Just like everything else in aviation, or in life, you need a bit of practice before you know how to do it properly, and sending students solo is one of those things that I think takes a bit of practice. I'm glad that those few times I was sweating in the tower hoping my student gets back on the ground before things turn nasty were not first-solos.
FFF
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Just like everything else in aviation, or in life, you need a bit of practice before you know how to do it properly, and sending students solo is one of those things that I think takes a bit of practice. I'm glad that those few times I was sweating in the tower hoping my student gets back on the ground before things turn nasty were not first-solos.
FFF
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The Original Whirly
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Well, I can't help feeling that as a fulltime helicopter FI(R) with around 240 instructing hours I maybe have some idea what I'm doing now. But getting unrestricted is still a long way off. The school I mainly teach at is newish. We only have one current student who's gone solo, and I've only sent him off a couple of times since then due to weather. We have a few more who should be ready soon, but with autumn winds and short days, it could take a while. And in R22s we don't send them solo with single-digit hours, as some f/w students manage; 20-30 is more usual. So I can see it being 500 hours or so before I get unrestricted. And I'm not sure what I'll know by then about sending someone solo that I don't know now...being the way I am, I ask for advice now about a lot of things if I can, and I probably will then. Doesn't judging when a student is ready for first solo come down to maturity, judgement, and common sense, more than flying experience?
I'm not sure what the answer is, but there must be a better way.
I'm not sure what the answer is, but there must be a better way.
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JinksterAnyone in the same boat and think this requirement is a bit stupid!!
I don't know if stupid is the right word to use in this context. I can tell you that after many thousands of hours of instruction and god knows how many 1st solo's, the final decision to get out of that aircraft and walk away never gets any easier. There are just so many "what if's?".
RT failure, balloon, bounce, overshoot, undershoot,will they go-around, weather, not to mention engine problems, the list goes on.........
It doesn't matter how comprehensively abnormal situations have been simulated and "boxes ticked" during the pre solo phase, i believe the real skill and judgement is in how a particular character will react to a specific situation. Now that does get easier, but only after lots of practice. Here i agree fully with FlyingForFun. I too have been on the ground wondering why the hell i sent bloggs solo after he's gone around for the 3rd time, watching the CB looming in from the west at the same time as the sun goes down behind it!! Doesn't happen nowadays though.......not much anyway....
I think the CAA or JAA or whoever it is has had to set the bar somewhere and that is where it's at, 100 hrs and 25 sign offs. Christ knows if it should be more or less or a different system all together. But i think that they may work on the assumption that even after a FI becomes unrestricted, he or she is still going to be mentored and monitored by a CFI or more experienced FI. Quite right too. In that sense the system self governs.
And before i sign off and bore even myself, i would like to throw in my own humble nugget of wisdom. To all you young or not so young green FI's out there. When you find yourself having landed after another hour of ccts, NEVER feel pressurised or obligated into sending Bloggs solo. If there is doubt, there is NO DOUBT. Stay down. Have a coffee. Go for a beer. Whatever. They will respect you far more after having a good old honest constructive debrief, than having what they perceive to be a near death experience. Yes he will be hacked off at having to shell out another £150 or so, and you run the risk of him going to knock on someone elses door. But the gooduns always come back..............
Thats me spent
Good night..
I don't know if stupid is the right word to use in this context. I can tell you that after many thousands of hours of instruction and god knows how many 1st solo's, the final decision to get out of that aircraft and walk away never gets any easier. There are just so many "what if's?".
RT failure, balloon, bounce, overshoot, undershoot,will they go-around, weather, not to mention engine problems, the list goes on.........
It doesn't matter how comprehensively abnormal situations have been simulated and "boxes ticked" during the pre solo phase, i believe the real skill and judgement is in how a particular character will react to a specific situation. Now that does get easier, but only after lots of practice. Here i agree fully with FlyingForFun. I too have been on the ground wondering why the hell i sent bloggs solo after he's gone around for the 3rd time, watching the CB looming in from the west at the same time as the sun goes down behind it!! Doesn't happen nowadays though.......not much anyway....
I think the CAA or JAA or whoever it is has had to set the bar somewhere and that is where it's at, 100 hrs and 25 sign offs. Christ knows if it should be more or less or a different system all together. But i think that they may work on the assumption that even after a FI becomes unrestricted, he or she is still going to be mentored and monitored by a CFI or more experienced FI. Quite right too. In that sense the system self governs.
And before i sign off and bore even myself, i would like to throw in my own humble nugget of wisdom. To all you young or not so young green FI's out there. When you find yourself having landed after another hour of ccts, NEVER feel pressurised or obligated into sending Bloggs solo. If there is doubt, there is NO DOUBT. Stay down. Have a coffee. Go for a beer. Whatever. They will respect you far more after having a good old honest constructive debrief, than having what they perceive to be a near death experience. Yes he will be hacked off at having to shell out another £150 or so, and you run the risk of him going to knock on someone elses door. But the gooduns always come back..............
Thats me spent
Good night..
The Original Whirly
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When you find yourself having landed after another hour of ccts, NEVER feel pressurised or obligated into sending Bloggs solo. If there is doubt, there is NO DOUBT.
But do you learn that from years and hours of instructing? Somehow I think that's where judgement and maturity comes in, rather than anything specifically to do with flying.I've been saying ever since I did my FI course that the course is far too much to do with flying, and far, far too little about with dealing with people, human factors, individual differences, and similar subjects. This thread is making me even more certain that this is the case.
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In absolute agreement WhirlyBird.
Teaching someone anything is all about communication. Aircraft are machines, as long as everything is working properly it will do exactly as commanded. People are not machines, even if everything is working properly they will not necessarily do exactly as commanded..if you get my drift.
Imparting the knowledge is a much understated artform in my opinion. Effective instruction is as much about having an intimate understanding of the human condition, as having the same understanding of the machines that we fly and the environment we fly in. Your basic FIC does not address this.
At all levels in flight training and beyond, it seems that PPLs, CPLs, FIs etc. are given the bare minimum to get on.....the rest is down to as you say "maturity and judgement" and a dollop of common sense.
All good stuff....
Teaching someone anything is all about communication. Aircraft are machines, as long as everything is working properly it will do exactly as commanded. People are not machines, even if everything is working properly they will not necessarily do exactly as commanded..if you get my drift.
Imparting the knowledge is a much understated artform in my opinion. Effective instruction is as much about having an intimate understanding of the human condition, as having the same understanding of the machines that we fly and the environment we fly in. Your basic FIC does not address this.
At all levels in flight training and beyond, it seems that PPLs, CPLs, FIs etc. are given the bare minimum to get on.....the rest is down to as you say "maturity and judgement" and a dollop of common sense.
All good stuff....
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As whirly says, the major limitation of the current instructor course is that it doesn't really teach dealing with people. In the commercial school that that I taught at, the FI course for trainee in house instructors (modelled on the CFS course) was 63 flying hours. The main difference was that all exercises (including EOL's) were flown mutual as instructor and student. At least you learned something about how people reacted to your teaching technique with someone other than the FIC. However, who would pay the astronomical cost of such a course these days.
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I am progressing through my ATPL in the hope of becoming a career instructor.
I see the positive side to the 25 solos rule and am interested at how this is achieved.
The clubs where I completed my PPL had a similar attitude with their instructors. A team celebration was had with the derestriction of an instructor but there was certainly no team spirit in acheiving it.
Overheard conversations about minimal oppertunities for the restricted instructor were echoed by the unrestricted ones moaning about wanting more pay to cover the 'trainee'.
This puts a sour taste to the celebrations!
What is the general rule about newbees being helped to progress?
I see the positive side to the 25 solos rule and am interested at how this is achieved.
The clubs where I completed my PPL had a similar attitude with their instructors. A team celebration was had with the derestriction of an instructor but there was certainly no team spirit in acheiving it.
Overheard conversations about minimal oppertunities for the restricted instructor were echoed by the unrestricted ones moaning about wanting more pay to cover the 'trainee'.
This puts a sour taste to the celebrations!
What is the general rule about newbees being helped to progress?
First of all, the 100/25 or 6 months and an upgrade test (a choice.) is a sensible answer the the problem.
To answer GusHoneybun, this is a situation where the employer should cover the cost. The person concerned has been paid a reduced salary until then, will now be a better asset to the organisation and of course the employers' cost is not as high as the normal rates for the aircraft...and it's tax-deductable.
To respond to the comments of Whopity, I'm not sure that the requirement for 200hrs. was fact. It certainly wasn't in the late 60s I feel certain.
Besides, the number of hours of instruction to reach the magic "25" will probably be in the region of 375 anyway (unless you're poaching or there's a fiddle going on.)
Actually the points made regarding attitude, communication and pure teaching skills are far more relevant to the arguement than "so many hours" as is the case in so many aspects of aircraft operation.
"Hours," per se, will never be the right answer. That's why an upgrade test, by someone qualified to judge, should always be the preferred option.
Rgds, Sleeve.
To answer GusHoneybun, this is a situation where the employer should cover the cost. The person concerned has been paid a reduced salary until then, will now be a better asset to the organisation and of course the employers' cost is not as high as the normal rates for the aircraft...and it's tax-deductable.
To respond to the comments of Whopity, I'm not sure that the requirement for 200hrs. was fact. It certainly wasn't in the late 60s I feel certain.
Besides, the number of hours of instruction to reach the magic "25" will probably be in the region of 375 anyway (unless you're poaching or there's a fiddle going on.)
Actually the points made regarding attitude, communication and pure teaching skills are far more relevant to the arguement than "so many hours" as is the case in so many aspects of aircraft operation.
"Hours," per se, will never be the right answer. That's why an upgrade test, by someone qualified to judge, should always be the preferred option.
Rgds, Sleeve.
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Nicely put sleeve.
Personally I was in the 1 month as a resricted instructor club followed by a instant sign off if i wanted it or not from the CFI. Looking back it was daft. Mind you I wasn't really supervised before that. The old excuse I can supervise you from Morrisions, B&Q etc.
Had only trained one person up to first solo stage, 1 person through x country nav. And about 50% of my lessons were trial flights.
Personally at the very least they should ban trial flights counting for the 100 hours and only 20hours for x-countrys. And have a bit more definition about what supervised actually means.
The solo sign offs are so open to abuse. Some people struggle to get them but have a great experence base of teaching the other exercises. Others can get them done in less than a week. I did them properly flying with each student, briefing them, 1 hour sorties once solo. Must admit I did have 2 QXC's which I counted for 6. This was before the debate on here where a poster got Lasors changed so you couldn't do it any more. And I was still only 2 weeks.
I really don't know if anything will get done. As far as I can tell there has been only anecdotal storys about the quality of instructors dropping.
I presume there hasn't been a huge increase in accidents in solo students or the powers that be would have changed things.
Personally I think that the simple fact that a low houred FI is actually expecting a high standard similar to what was expected of them on thier CPL and FIC, that they don't release the students when an experenced instructor would.
Personally I was in the 1 month as a resricted instructor club followed by a instant sign off if i wanted it or not from the CFI. Looking back it was daft. Mind you I wasn't really supervised before that. The old excuse I can supervise you from Morrisions, B&Q etc.
Had only trained one person up to first solo stage, 1 person through x country nav. And about 50% of my lessons were trial flights.
Personally at the very least they should ban trial flights counting for the 100 hours and only 20hours for x-countrys. And have a bit more definition about what supervised actually means.
The solo sign offs are so open to abuse. Some people struggle to get them but have a great experence base of teaching the other exercises. Others can get them done in less than a week. I did them properly flying with each student, briefing them, 1 hour sorties once solo. Must admit I did have 2 QXC's which I counted for 6. This was before the debate on here where a poster got Lasors changed so you couldn't do it any more. And I was still only 2 weeks.
I really don't know if anything will get done. As far as I can tell there has been only anecdotal storys about the quality of instructors dropping.
I presume there hasn't been a huge increase in accidents in solo students or the powers that be would have changed things.
Personally I think that the simple fact that a low houred FI is actually expecting a high standard similar to what was expected of them on thier CPL and FIC, that they don't release the students when an experenced instructor would.
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I don't know if it's the same for fixed wing, but the requirement on the helicopter side is now for 25 student solo air exercises, not flights.
On the basis that every flight includes Taking off and landing (1), Hover taxiing (2), Spot turns(3), Transitions to and from the hover(4), and circuits(5), you can theoretically do it with five flights, I took seven.
On the basis that every flight includes Taking off and landing (1), Hover taxiing (2), Spot turns(3), Transitions to and from the hover(4), and circuits(5), you can theoretically do it with five flights, I took seven.
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I think its fine how it is. I started as an FI(R) instructing at weekends about 6 months ago. I am approaching the 100hrs FI but do not have anywhere near the requisite number of sign offs yet.
I feel far from ready to be in a position to decide whether someone is in a position to go solo for the first time so I think the regulators have got it about right. It is a big responsibility sending someone of solo - even if it is for their fourth of fifth, let alone the first.
Most of the students I have taken over were at the start of their PPL so they are just coming up to first solo stage now, so although I have been instructing six months and nearly have the hours I don't have all the experience I need I feel to go unrestricted.
To my mind the 100hrs/25 sign offs is right as it balances instructional time with sending people solo. If when I had started I had 4 students at the circuit stage I could have had the sign offs done in three months but be lacking experience in other areas.
Still got much to learn.
I feel far from ready to be in a position to decide whether someone is in a position to go solo for the first time so I think the regulators have got it about right. It is a big responsibility sending someone of solo - even if it is for their fourth of fifth, let alone the first.
Most of the students I have taken over were at the start of their PPL so they are just coming up to first solo stage now, so although I have been instructing six months and nearly have the hours I don't have all the experience I need I feel to go unrestricted.
To my mind the 100hrs/25 sign offs is right as it balances instructional time with sending people solo. If when I had started I had 4 students at the circuit stage I could have had the sign offs done in three months but be lacking experience in other areas.
Still got much to learn.
When you have your FI Restriction removed, you can not only send students on their first solo, but you can operate unsupervised and more importantly you can become a supervisor of other FI(R)s. If there was an accident, the buck might stop with you. A court would look to see if things had been done in a reasonable manner; if they considered that it hadn't, the liability could be emense! If you have fudged your 25 solo sign offs you may have fooled the CAA but its the Court you will need to worry about! 25 sign offs don't guarantee anything however, there is an assumption that if you've had sufficient time to accrue that experience you might be capable of operating on your own and supervising others. Its still a damm site easier and cheaper than the previous system.
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Supervision
As a matter of fact, there is some confusion with regard to FI(r).
An AFI may only instruct when an FI is present for the take-off and landing, true.
That is not the case of an FI(r). The supervision of the FI(r) is of a general nature and the supervising FI ( or any other ) is not required to be present when an FI(r) is instructing. An FI(r) may work alone. FI's acting as supervisors are required to be registered to the CAA and the same should subsequently sign the form confirming the FI(r) has met the requirement to have their restriction removed. The extent to which supervision is required of an FI(r) is not stipulated.
An AFI may only instruct when an FI is present for the take-off and landing, true.
That is not the case of an FI(r). The supervision of the FI(r) is of a general nature and the supervising FI ( or any other ) is not required to be present when an FI(r) is instructing. An FI(r) may work alone. FI's acting as supervisors are required to be registered to the CAA and the same should subsequently sign the form confirming the FI(r) has met the requirement to have their restriction removed. The extent to which supervision is required of an FI(r) is not stipulated.