JAA FI instructing in USA

[AndyDRHuddleston]

I have nearly finished my Flight Instructor course and have heard through the grapevine that it is possible for a JAA FI to teach in the USA without holding an FAA CPL or Instructor rating!!

Can anyone clarify this? and if so list the schools in the USA that are prepared to employee such people?

Thanks

ADRH

[B2N2]

Interesting question, has been covered somewhere before, can't recall where...
There are regulatory issues and practical issues;

Regulatory;
I am sure the FAA does not have a problem with it if:
-Student already holds a US license for category and class, eg single engine land. You would simply be a more experienced passenger with your student being PIC. You would only be able to instruct for a license or rating which is not recognized in the US, therefore a foreign license, eg JAA PPL/CPL

Practical:
Insurance companies in the US are NOT going to be happy, to use an understatement, if you are instructing without holding the required qualifications.
Remember you will be flying a N-registered aircraft in US airspace.

Question is also; how are you going to be legally employed (visa or otherwise) to flight instruct without holding a US CFI?

[FlyingForFun]

I am sure the FAA does not have a problem with it if:
-Student already holds a US license for category and class, eg single engine land. You would simply be a more experienced passenger with your student being PIC

I'm not sure that's correct, is it?

FARs would require the student to be PIC. JARs would require the instructor to be PIC. So which is it? There can only be one PIC at any one time.

I'm willing to be corrected if I'm wrong, though.

FFF
---------------

[dartagnan]

the Pilot is responsible to fly the aircraft, so he is PIC and can log PIC and instruction received.

the flight instructor is responsible for the instruction. He is not reponsible for the aircraft so it can be a non FAA flight instructor and he will log flight instructor time (and PIC time, but PIC as a FI)....

I know, this is crazy!!!

this is more a problem about who is going to pay if there is an accident and in this case you should contact your insurance company..

[mcgoo]

Originally Posted by AndyDRHuddleston

Can anyone clarify this? and if so list the schools in the USA that are prepared to employee such people?
Thanks
ADRH

I enquired about this at my school in Florida and they said they wouldn't employ UK instructors as it wasn't worth the hassle with visas etc when they can get a steady flow of US instructors from Embry Riddle etc

[B2N2]

FARs would require the student to be PIC. JARs would require the instructor to be PIC. So which is it? There can only be one PIC at any one time.

Correct FFF......under FAR's both the student and the Instructor can log PIC.
The student because he/she is rated in the aircraft and the Instructor is PIC for having the final say in the outcome of the flight and ultimately responsible.

I assume the Instructor can log under JAA regulations while the student logs under FAA regulations.
Doesn't make whole lot of sense though if the student is being taught for a JAA rating.
But like I said earlier, the whole question has some serious regulatory and practical problems.
Like mentioned, it is far easier to give an FAA Instructor some standardization training then getting a JAA Instructor without FAA licenses/ratings.

[unfazed]

Like mentioned, it is far easier to give an FAA Instructor some standardization training then getting a JAA Instructor without FAA licenses/ratings.

Can't help thinking that CAA are allowing FAA to take the pi$$ out of JAR instructors here (how come an FAA instructor can avoid all of the crap that a JAA instructor has to go through and teach JAR syllabus with a form filling exercise ?) - So why can't we have reciprocal rights to teach FAA in UK ?? Hey that would even the playing field a bit !

I enquired about this at my school in Florida and they said they wouldn't employ UK instructors as it wasn't worth the hassle with visas etc when they can get a steady flow of US instructors from Embry Riddle etc

Suspect that the school was JAR/FAA in central Florida near Disneyworld ?

[B2N2]

*****Disclaimer, I am not very well versed in CAA/JAR regulations******

As I understand it, one CAA qualified Instructor(Unrestricted) can supervise up to 7 non-CAA qualified Instructors.

Some time ago CAA land would also allow you to instruct on a PPL if I'm not mistaken.
In the US it has always been a CPL-IR required for a FI.

So why can't we have reciprocal rights to teach FAA in UK ?? Hey that would even the playing field a bit !

As far as I know, this has always been possible under CFR Part 61, without any special permission or authorization like the CAA requires.
The problem has always been FAA examiners. The FAA head office used to send examiners over to Europe, now you have to pay for one out of pocket.
If you can even find one willing to do it. It still happens on rare occasions.

So why can't we have reciprocal rights to teach FAA in UK

It is fairly pointless, CAA instructing in the US is taking place because of the lower cost for the student. While they are here they might as well do the FAA PPL also, go home dual rated.

[unfazed]

It is fairly pointless, CAA instructing in the US is taking place because of the lower cost for the student. While they are here they might as well do the FAA PPL also, go home dual rated.


So what about when they get home and want to complete an FAA BFR ?

What about JAR FI's conducting FAA BFR's ?

Also if we didn't allow FAA instructors to reach JAR students then we might just find it easier to get VISA's to work in USA. Not going to happen if we rubber stamp FAA FI's to do our work for us.

[B2N2]

What about JAR FI's conducting FAA BFR's

They can't and rightfully so, equally justified...a FAA FI cannot sign off on a CAA/JAA renewal or proficiency check.

Also if we didn't allow FAA instructors to reach JAR students then we might just find it easier to get VISA's to work in USA. Not going to happen if we rubber stamp FAA FI's to do our work for us.

No argument here, but remember it is your beloved CAA that allows it.
Our opinion truly does not make a difference..unfortunately..

[unfazed]

They can't and rightfully so, equally justified...a FAA FI cannot sign off on a CAA/JAA renewal or proficiency check.

So what you are saying is that it is fine for an FAA FI to train a JAR PPL for the license and then sign off as ready for an examiner (45 hours of flying at least !) But you think that is not acceptable for a JAR FI to fly for one hour with an FAA license holder to determine if they are safe ?

No argument here, but remember it is your beloved CAA that allows it
Hence why I pointed out what a farce it is and how unfair and one sided, also the word beloved is certainly an interesting choice.

Lets face it the original comment is accurate CAA/JAA are taking the PI$$ out of JAR FI's and that is a fact.

Come on CAA stop this unfair nonsense

[BEagle]

Unfortunately it is the spineless ones in the CAA who didn't take the opportunity to stop JAA flight training in non-JAA states when this nonsense first arose.

Hopefully EASA will be made of sterner stuff - and will insist that all EASA flight training is carried out in EASA member states. Then the poor old UK training industry might actually get a new lease of life.

[B2N2]

So what you are saying is that it is fine for an FAA FI to train a JAR PPL for the license and then sign off as ready for an examiner

Yes it is, if properly supervised by a JAA FI/HOT.

Look gentlemen, you can't blame the fox for the door being left open on the hen house. (or something to that extent, you get the message.)

also the word beloved is certainly an interesting choice

yes it is and somewhat sarcastic if I might add.

Hopefully EASA will be made of sterner stuff - and will insist that all EASA flight training is carried out in EASA member states. Then the poor old UK training industry might actually get a new lease of life.

So that would be the only wat to revitalize the UK training industry?
A regulation change?
BEagle, you, me and others have argued this many times on other threads, what about improving the UK industry on your own strength?


I'll get my coat now........

[unfazed]

B2N2

You are right about the farmyard door....what I would like to see is the door closed nice and firmly so that JAA instructors are protected as well as FAA

I am realistic and see flight training as a global activity that is bigger than any one state but I firmly believe that if the Spineless CAA stopped allowing FAA instructors to teach JAR students then we would be able to get work visas from immigration a lot easier, on the basis that no local can do the job (unless JAR FI ).

Seems fairer to me

[421C]

Originally Posted by unfazed

B2N2

You are right about the farmyard door....what I would like to see is the door closed nice and firmly so that JAA instructors are protected as well as FAA

Seems fairer to me

Unfazed

I'm sorry, but as far as I see it, the regulatory playing field is more than level in the JAA Instructors' favour

- any JAA instructor in the UK can train a pilot for any FAA qualification, in some cases more easily than they can train then for a JAA one, eg you could train a student towards the FAA IR without any of the JAA paraphenalia of FTO approvals and course approvals etc. The only thing you can't do is sign them off for a checkride or sign off an endorsement (like the BFR). The FAA accept ICAO Instructors as 'authorised instructors' for all of the flight instruction required for FAA licenses and ratings (barring the odd hour here and there).

- an FAA instructor can only train someone for JAA ratings in the very special circumstances of being part of a CAA approved school in the US

So, for 99% of FAA Instructors (ie. those not in the Florida CAA approved schools) the JAA is much more protectionist. The FAA allows people to come and take checkrides in the US based on training done by JAA instructors. It does not work vice-versa.

Similarly, a group of JAA CFIs in the UK could work with an FAA CFI and FAA DPE in the UK and train people towards any FAA rating just as FAA instructors work under the supervision of a JAA CFI and have students tested by a JAA examiner - but the UK lot wouldnt need all of the FTO approvals the JAA demand.

Additionally, the JAA Instructor is protected by the barriers of bureaucracy and involved in getting advanced JAA licenses and ratings. An FAA CPL-CFI would face 10x the cost and time and work to convert to the JAA licenses than a JAA Instructor would face in getting the FAA equivalents.

It's not clear to me that there is any JAA training that takes place in the US whose "mirror image" of FAA training in the UK wouldn't be easier to organise and accomplish.

The real problem is that the US has a fabulous infrastructure of airports and a comparatively wonderful regulatory environment. This is an "unfair" advantage.

rgds
421C

[BigGrecian]

European Flight Training instructors are all jointly JAA and FAA qualified. I believe they are the only school which offers this in the US.

[N-01]

Originally Posted by 421C

Unfazed

The FAA accept ICAO Instructors as 'authorised instructors' for all of the flight instruction required for FAA licenses and ratings
rgds
421C

(2) Authorized instructor means—
(i) A person who holds a valid ground instructor certificate issued under part 61 or part 143 of this chapter when conducting ground training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her ground instructor certificate;
(ii) A person who holds a current flight instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate;


Section 61.56: Flight review.

(1) Accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor and
(2) A logbook endorsed from an authorized instructor who gave the review certifying that the person has satisfactorily completed the review.


Section 61.87: Solo requirements for student pilots.

(b) Aeronautical knowledge. A student pilot must demonstrate satisfactory aeronautical knowledge on a knowledge test that meets the requirements of this paragraph:
(1) The test must address the student pilot's knowledge of—
(i) Applicable sections of parts 61 and 91 of this chapter;
(ii) Airspace rules and procedures for the airport where the solo flight will be performed; and
(iii) Flight characteristics and operational limitations for the make and model of aircraft to be flown.
(2) The student's authorized instructor must—
(i) Administer the test; and
(ii) At the conclusion of the test, review all incorrect answers with the student before authorizing that student to conduct a solo flight.


n) Limitations on student pilots operating an aircraft in solo flight. A student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo flight unless that student pilot has received:
(1) An endorsement from an authorized instructor on his or her student pilot certificate for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown; and
(2) An endorsement in the student's logbook for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown by an authorized instructor, who gave the training within the 90 days preceding the date of the flight.

Section 61.133: Commercial pilot privileges and limitations.

(a) Privileges—(1) General. A person who holds a commercial pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft—
(i) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire, provided the person is qualified in accordance with this part and with the applicable parts of this chapter that apply to the operation; and
(ii) For compensation or hire, provided the person is qualified in accordance with this part and with the applicable parts of this chapter that apply to the operation.

If you dont have a commercial FAA ticket you cant get compensated whilst flying an N reg Aircraft, end of story.

[unfazed]

The only thing you can't do is sign them off for a checkride or sign off an endorsement (like the BFR).


Bit pointless then don't you think ? So if it is such a level playing field why won't they (FAA) accept the judgement of a JAA FI ?

[421C]

Originally Posted by N-01

(2)
If you dont have a commercial FAA ticket you cant get compensated whilst flying an N reg Aircraft, end of story.

If you dont have a commercial JAA ticket you cant get compensated whilst flying an G reg Aircraft, end of story. So how is the playing field unlevel?

[421C]

Originally Posted by unfazed

The only thing you can't do is sign them off for a checkride or sign off an endorsement (like the BFR).


Bit pointless then don't you think ? So if it is such a level playing field why won't they (FAA) accept the judgement of a JAA FI ?

I don't understand your point. You argued earlier that the playing field was not level in the FAA CFI's favour. You keep bringing up this BFR point. However,

- whilst only an FAA Instructor can sign-off a BFR (and the reason is the BFR is not "generic" flight training, but has an FAA-specific component of ground training on Part 91 and Part 61)
- equally, only a JAA Examiner can sign-off the JAA equivalent of the BFR, the LPC

How exactly does the FAA CFI exclusivenes of the BFR support your point that the playing flield is not level when JAA Proficiency checks likewise require JAA qualifications?

Your earlier comment was
"Lets face it the original comment is accurate CAA/JAA are taking the PI$$ out of JAR FI's and that is a fact."

I just don't see any regulatory facts that support this. Of course weather, tax, airport costs etc etc mean the overall playing field is far from level and there aren't FAA schools in the UK the way there are JAA ones in the US.