Anxieties of spinning
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Anxieties of spinning
Folks
As a FI I ought not tho have this problem however I must confess a lack of confidence in spin entry and exit especially spins from abnormal attitudes. There must be a more deep rooted reason for this and I am undertaking some personal research in this area. There are other background domestic matters thatdo not help and overall confidence levels are not where they should be.
I have been told quite bluntly that if I cannot hack this a career in aviation is out of the question even line flying. Are there courses/infomation that you can all lead me to?
Advice and help would be much appreciated.
Ta
As a FI I ought not tho have this problem however I must confess a lack of confidence in spin entry and exit especially spins from abnormal attitudes. There must be a more deep rooted reason for this and I am undertaking some personal research in this area. There are other background domestic matters thatdo not help and overall confidence levels are not where they should be.
I have been told quite bluntly that if I cannot hack this a career in aviation is out of the question even line flying. Are there courses/infomation that you can all lead me to?
Advice and help would be much appreciated.
Ta
Gizajob
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Well done for trying to overcome your 'problem'. Who told you that being a bit concerned about spinning will preclude you from work as a pilot? I'd like to know what they base that opinion on...
What do you mean by 'abnormal attitudes'? Inverted spins etc? Unless you have had your aeros restriction removed, why would you need to teach that sort of thing?
I would say first of all that you need to assess what is required of you. As an 'ordinary' FI, you are not likely to be doing much spinning - it's not part of the syllabus after all. If your student has a valid reason for wanting to spin, you can always pass them on to someone 'more experienced'...
Secondly, try to think about root causes - do you fear being unable to recover from a spin?, do you find the sensations unpleasant? Is it actually nothing to do with spinning and more about some other issues (since you hint at that). If you can figure out the root cause, you can formulate an action plan to change things.
What do you mean by 'abnormal attitudes'? Inverted spins etc? Unless you have had your aeros restriction removed, why would you need to teach that sort of thing?
I would say first of all that you need to assess what is required of you. As an 'ordinary' FI, you are not likely to be doing much spinning - it's not part of the syllabus after all. If your student has a valid reason for wanting to spin, you can always pass them on to someone 'more experienced'...
Secondly, try to think about root causes - do you fear being unable to recover from a spin?, do you find the sensations unpleasant? Is it actually nothing to do with spinning and more about some other issues (since you hint at that). If you can figure out the root cause, you can formulate an action plan to change things.
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When I learned to fly, spinning was on the syllabus and I remember being sent out to practice solo stalling and spinning as a student. Spinning used to be a hurdle for some student pilots when I became an instructor, particularly as just about all modern light aircraft were designed not to spin. To keep them spinning you had to hold in pro-spin rudder or they would just recover of their own accord! Eventually that part of the syllabus, introduced before WWII when aircraft certainly did spin with a little encouragement was rightly dropped. During all my training for my CPL, I never had to spin an aircraft or recover from same, and I doubt you will ever have to. The only sort of spinning I wouldn't like to get involved with is an inverted one as I have had no training in this recovery, but this is only a possibility if you badly mishandle a very aerobatic type of aircraft.
P.P.
P.P.
You need to work out what the root concern is before you can deal with it. Some possibilities include: lack of belief in your own abilities, lack of belief in the aircraft, lack of knowledge, lack of experience, and fear. These would all be dealt with by the additional training and experience that comes as part of doing an aeros course.
I'm a firm believer that an FI should be comfortable in any reasonable flight regime of which an aircraft is capable and would suggest some basic aeros experience to any pilot.
HFD
I'm a firm believer that an FI should be comfortable in any reasonable flight regime of which an aircraft is capable and would suggest some basic aeros experience to any pilot.
HFD
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There are a few companies around which specialise in Advanced Training. I would suggest you give one of these a call and do some specialist spin training.
Bluntly speaking, you're not scared of spinning. You're scared of not recovering and this is what you need to experience more of and practice.
Bluntly speaking, you're not scared of spinning. You're scared of not recovering and this is what you need to experience more of and practice.
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Originally Posted by EGBKFLYER
I would say first of all that you need to assess what is required of you. As an 'ordinary' FI, you are not likely to be doing much spinning - it's not part of the syllabus after all.
I think that an instructor must be able to recover the airplane from all attitudes and conditions without anxiety...
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Ok Rosanna - I saw that Bucket was in the UK, so I was only referring to the UK syllabus. Interesting to know some other EU countries still spin...
Playing devil's advocate a little here
, but why would an ordinary instructor need to recover the aircraft from any attitude and condition without anxiety? Surely prevention is better than cure and the aircraft shouldn't get anywhere near a departure (which requires a recovery action). After all, we are teaching PPLs not military crew or aeros hotshots. For the folks that are teaching aeros etc, might be a different matter though.
Playing devil's advocate a little here
, but why would an ordinary instructor need to recover the aircraft from any attitude and condition without anxiety? Surely prevention is better than cure and the aircraft shouldn't get anywhere near a departure (which requires a recovery action). After all, we are teaching PPLs not military crew or aeros hotshots. For the folks that are teaching aeros etc, might be a different matter though.
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Originally Posted by EGBKFLYER
but why would an ordinary instructor need to recover the aircraft from any attitude and condition without anxiety?
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Rosanna - I fully agree with you - talking from the U.K. viewpoint. I suspect that in this case Bucket may not have had very good spin recovery training on his FI course or during his PPL course. I gained my confidence in the art when I was as a student sent to practice spin recovery solo. My FIC instructor (the late F.C.H. Taylor, god bless him) also was very keen on spinning - the entry to and the recovery from. Some advanced training in spin recovery techniques is needed here as suggested by Human Factor.
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Hey,
Although Im not yet an instructor, I find spins extremely unpleasent. I always had a great fear of spinning when practicing stalls, so anything to do with slow flight and the like was dreaded.
My instructor new fine well that I hated it so he broke me in gently. Doing an incipient spin, which he gradually built up. We never did a full spin, until my PPL checkride, where, as usual, I tried to recover from a stall too early, but the left wing dropped, so I began spin recovery.
My examiner asked me why I was doing that, and I told him I thought we were starting a spin. He said 'no lad, thats not a spin, this is ..................'. Needless to say, it wasn't as bad as a thought it was, in fact I was giggling, kinda like what you do on a rollercoaster :-) But I think this is because I was built up to it, and not thrown in.
Saying as I hope to instruct in the near future, I also worry about spinning, and any other 'weired' stuff, and I always think I will struggle at this aspect of training. In my defence though; the plane was 30 years old, perhaps spinning something newer would calm my nerves a bit.
I think its quite a common thing to cause anxiety; it feels awful, and I agree with an earlier post, as my fear is also not being able to recover.
Although Im not yet an instructor, I find spins extremely unpleasent. I always had a great fear of spinning when practicing stalls, so anything to do with slow flight and the like was dreaded.
My instructor new fine well that I hated it so he broke me in gently. Doing an incipient spin, which he gradually built up. We never did a full spin, until my PPL checkride, where, as usual, I tried to recover from a stall too early, but the left wing dropped, so I began spin recovery.
My examiner asked me why I was doing that, and I told him I thought we were starting a spin. He said 'no lad, thats not a spin, this is ..................'. Needless to say, it wasn't as bad as a thought it was, in fact I was giggling, kinda like what you do on a rollercoaster :-) But I think this is because I was built up to it, and not thrown in.
Saying as I hope to instruct in the near future, I also worry about spinning, and any other 'weired' stuff, and I always think I will struggle at this aspect of training. In my defence though; the plane was 30 years old, perhaps spinning something newer would calm my nerves a bit.
I think its quite a common thing to cause anxiety; it feels awful, and I agree with an earlier post, as my fear is also not being able to recover.
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Bucket
I believe that full spinning is not compulsary on the JAA PPL. At the school I work at we demonstrate a full spin or two after the lead in lessons of slow flight-stalling 1-stalling 2 if the student wishes to see it. Perhaps a more important thing to demonstrate and then have student practice is recovery from incipient spin which is a much more likely scenario. This does not have to be entered from the most terrifying angle and aggressively when your student least expects it. Perhaps getting a good heads up on incipient entry/recoveries and increasing your handling confidence in the process may well help you over this difficulty. The first time I ever did spinning was on my FI course and it was performed with vigour which at best was exhilarating and at worst down right scary and sickly. At points I really did wonder how I would ever cope with it, but now I really look forward to it and it seems that even a 152 can bite a bit sometimes so sensible heights and airmanship is called for.
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Originally Posted by duir
Perhaps a more important thing to demonstrate and then have student practice is recovery from incipient spin which is a much more likely scenario.
But here we were talking about flight instructors, not about students. And if a flight instructor has to demostrate a condition I suppose he/she's able to handle this situation without anxiety.
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Its very much an FI thing is spinning (Hectoresque!) - its regarded as important in issue revalidation and renewal of that rating
its untrue to say....
>I have been told quite bluntly that if I cannot hack this a career in aviation >is out of the question even line flying.
as its not relevant to air'line' flying - you wont be spinning an airliner
its untrue to say....
>I have been told quite bluntly that if I cannot hack this a career in aviation >is out of the question even line flying.
as its not relevant to air'line' flying - you wont be spinning an airliner
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Interesting thread for more than 1 reason.
1 It is one element of the flight envelope not often practiced even by FIs, but also the element most likely to do you damage and bite you on the ar*e if recovery is not effected properly.
2 I have heard many anecdotal stories that although there is standard spin recovery which we all demo'ed effectively during our FI training and examination there are aircraft which refuse to behave normally in terms of standard recovery- believe the RAF guys have some stories about Bulldog recovery and its not a good idea to find the aircraft you are spinning for the first time has some unexpected peculiarities-- not that any of us would go spin a new beast with a student, without some type training first!!
3 Not sure about the stresses and strains imposed on the airframe during spinning but from a structural integrity point of view, I certainly have some reservations about spinning a 40 year old airframe-and 90% of us are teaching on airframes that old- especially when you see the condition of the outside of the aircraft and wonder whether the load bearing inside conditions match !!
Always remember in my sprog PPL years, a spin demo in a Tomohawk with the intructor telling me to look over my shoulder during the spin. That empennage was twisting quite notieceably-- very unnerving!!
1 It is one element of the flight envelope not often practiced even by FIs, but also the element most likely to do you damage and bite you on the ar*e if recovery is not effected properly.
2 I have heard many anecdotal stories that although there is standard spin recovery which we all demo'ed effectively during our FI training and examination there are aircraft which refuse to behave normally in terms of standard recovery- believe the RAF guys have some stories about Bulldog recovery and its not a good idea to find the aircraft you are spinning for the first time has some unexpected peculiarities-- not that any of us would go spin a new beast with a student, without some type training first!!
3 Not sure about the stresses and strains imposed on the airframe during spinning but from a structural integrity point of view, I certainly have some reservations about spinning a 40 year old airframe-and 90% of us are teaching on airframes that old- especially when you see the condition of the outside of the aircraft and wonder whether the load bearing inside conditions match !!
Always remember in my sprog PPL years, a spin demo in a Tomohawk with the intructor telling me to look over my shoulder during the spin. That empennage was twisting quite notieceably-- very unnerving!!
LDW
I'm not ex-RAF but I have done a large number of spins in the Bulldog. Spin recovery is absolutely standard BUT, unlike some types, if you don't do the right things the recovery will be delayed - in that way it's an excellent spin trainer.
During the spin itself the speed is low and the wing is stalled so it's relatively low stress and airframe age is irrelevant; if the recovery is mishandled then I guess the stresses may rise at that point.
Just out of interest, why did your instructor ask you to look at the back end of a Traumahawk during the spin?
HFD
I'm not ex-RAF but I have done a large number of spins in the Bulldog. Spin recovery is absolutely standard BUT, unlike some types, if you don't do the right things the recovery will be delayed - in that way it's an excellent spin trainer.
During the spin itself the speed is low and the wing is stalled so it's relatively low stress and airframe age is irrelevant; if the recovery is mishandled then I guess the stresses may rise at that point.
Just out of interest, why did your instructor ask you to look at the back end of a Traumahawk during the spin?
HFD
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I guess cause he already knew what the tailplane was doing!! and just wanted me to witness the aerodymanic forces at the rear end!!-- hence my comment about stresses on old airframes- should have made myself clearer- wasnt so much the stresses during the spin - it was any overzealous handling during the exit that was on my mind
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Having just done my PPL in the states, I asked my instructor to take me up and do some spins, as it was not part of the sylabus I thought it would be a good idea to see what they are like and how to recover. The first one we dropped into scared the hell out of me, as in a C-150 it almost felt inverted as it broke from the stall into the spin, but even as we were dropping out the sky, my instructor was calm as you like, showing me that the normal control inputs did nothing, then proceeded to talk through recovery as he demonstrated the procedure. We went back up and did another one, with me flying, but he kept his hands and feet on the controls just to stay safe, then after that I did 4 more, 2 with me entering and recovering myself, one in each direction, then 2 with my instructor entering, and he made me close my eyes and put my head on my shoulder as we stalled, so when I had to recover I had to identify the direction of the spin and orientate myself.
I think that spins should be part of the sylabus, as it gave me so much more confidence in the handling and recovery of the aircraft. I think that a calm and confident instrutor is vital though, as I wouldn't have been happy spinning with someone who didn't really want to do it. When I get a chance, I am going to go to kemble and take a spin course with ultimate high, as they are all ex RAF instrucors, and you can never have enough training in my opinion, so why don't you have a look at www.ultimatehigh.co.uk , a bit of training with a confident instructor might help you get over your fear
I think that spins should be part of the sylabus, as it gave me so much more confidence in the handling and recovery of the aircraft. I think that a calm and confident instrutor is vital though, as I wouldn't have been happy spinning with someone who didn't really want to do it. When I get a chance, I am going to go to kemble and take a spin course with ultimate high, as they are all ex RAF instrucors, and you can never have enough training in my opinion, so why don't you have a look at www.ultimatehigh.co.uk , a bit of training with a confident instructor might help you get over your fear
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I would be interested to know what type Bucket did his spinning in. I find many people are put off by aircraft that do not spin properly - the instructor is gabbling to get the patter out before the spin changes to a spiral dive and the speed builds. As suggested try someone like UH.