Anxieties of spinning
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I gave up instructing with our club for two main reasons - we sold the aerobatic aeroplane, and started to use a C172, and secondly the Instructor Seminar I had to go on was not a seminar, in that we the punters were given little chance to express a non-party line opinion. The last straw was finding that the recently retired CFS light aircraft trapper had never heard of the Muller spin recovery!
All my students were given the option to sample a spin if not to fly the whole thing. And even the one who didn't like the idea but agreed to try it, was glad that he learnt more about it.
All my students were given the option to sample a spin if not to fly the whole thing. And even the one who didn't like the idea but agreed to try it, was glad that he learnt more about it.
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Foxmoth - the Slingsby Firefly is quite a good aeroplane to teach spinning in. The ones I did showed no tendency to spiral dive whilst the instructor calmy talked me through the recovery!
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the Slingsby Firefly is quite a good aeroplane to teach spinning in. The ones I did showed no tendency to spiral dive whilst the instructor calmy talked me through the recovery!
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Foxmoth,
I agree, and in my case no, it certainly didn't put me off. In fact the relaxed manner in which the instructor talked through the drill as though he had all the time in the world gave me confidence in the recovery.
I'm in the camp that thinks spin training is definitely a good thing, and makes better, more confident pilots.
WP.
I agree, and in my case no, it certainly didn't put me off. In fact the relaxed manner in which the instructor talked through the drill as though he had all the time in the world gave me confidence in the recovery.
I'm in the camp that thinks spin training is definitely a good thing, and makes better, more confident pilots.
WP.
Last edited by waldopepper42; 21st Mar 2006 at 15:06.
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Stunning feedback
Well folks, thanks to you all. I never imagined that my thread would get such a response. Please keep it coming as it will form part of my personal research into the subject. I am sure that I cannot be alone in this regard, it just seems as if as FI's we are supposed to have nerves of steel (certainly) as far as the students are concerned. I welcome the chance to air my anxieties on this forum and remain truly grateful for the words of encouragement and thought provoking responses. It is much appreciated.
The aircraft type in question is the venerable PA28-140. A pleasant aircraft as you all well know. If mis-handled on the entry it just mushes and very quickly enters a rapid spiral dive; the proximity to VNe is quite interesting. And the end of the day I understand and acknowledge the value of spinning where an aircraft is available to do it.
For me, it's a confidence thing and as I alluded in my opening thread, other non-aviation factors have had some impact. Moreover, confidence in the aircraft is vital and in this respect the 140 does not bite but the age of the airframe perhaps gives some cause for concern especially when the aircraft in question are probably being spun every day.
I feel like a sinner in the confessional box but have to say that getting off my chest and opening it up for sensible discussion (without accusations of lack of moral fibre or words to that effect in the aviation sense) has really helped.
Thanks to all of you. Keep it coming
The aircraft type in question is the venerable PA28-140. A pleasant aircraft as you all well know. If mis-handled on the entry it just mushes and very quickly enters a rapid spiral dive; the proximity to VNe is quite interesting. And the end of the day I understand and acknowledge the value of spinning where an aircraft is available to do it.
For me, it's a confidence thing and as I alluded in my opening thread, other non-aviation factors have had some impact. Moreover, confidence in the aircraft is vital and in this respect the 140 does not bite but the age of the airframe perhaps gives some cause for concern especially when the aircraft in question are probably being spun every day.
I feel like a sinner in the confessional box but have to say that getting off my chest and opening it up for sensible discussion (without accusations of lack of moral fibre or words to that effect in the aviation sense) has really helped.
Thanks to all of you. Keep it coming
Bucket:
I'm sure you've told your studes many times that confidence comes from experience - so you already know the answer
The experience really needs to be in an aircraft that has a reasonable rate of climb, spins properly and which you can have the confidence of being able to escape from if needed (wearing parachutes!).
Old Sarum (near Salisbury) have been offering aeros and spin courses in Bulldogs for about 10 years (not tired, ex-RAF Bulldogs!); there are other schools around that do the same in T67Ms or CAP10s. If you wanted to look at erect spinning in all it's glory we would be more than happy to accommodate, but if you wanted to delve into inverted spins you really need to be in a Pitts and Alan Cassidy at White Waltham would be one person to contact.
Send me a PM if you want more info.
HFD
I'm sure you've told your studes many times that confidence comes from experience - so you already know the answer
The experience really needs to be in an aircraft that has a reasonable rate of climb, spins properly and which you can have the confidence of being able to escape from if needed (wearing parachutes!).
Old Sarum (near Salisbury) have been offering aeros and spin courses in Bulldogs for about 10 years (not tired, ex-RAF Bulldogs!); there are other schools around that do the same in T67Ms or CAP10s. If you wanted to look at erect spinning in all it's glory we would be more than happy to accommodate, but if you wanted to delve into inverted spins you really need to be in a Pitts and Alan Cassidy at White Waltham would be one person to contact.
Send me a PM if you want more info.
HFD
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Just a quick one, I didn't think the PA28's were cleared for spinning 
I might be entirely wrong of course 
. As stated in the post before, if you are not confident and entirely happy doing a manuovre, then it will be hard to do well, let alone teach, and speaking from personal experience, a worried instructor leads to very scared students 
I might be entirely wrong of course . As stated in the post before, if you are not confident and entirely happy doing a manuovre, then it will be hard to do well, let alone teach, and speaking from personal experience, a worried instructor leads to very scared students
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Originally Posted by Kengineer-130
Just a quick one, I didn't think the PA28's were cleared for spinning
Cheers
Gerard
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Spinning was dropped after I completed my PPL. I never enjoyed it, but I accepted that I had to do it. It was dropped from the course when it was realised that there were more incidents/accidents during the training than occurred in "normal flight ops". A very good reason not to do it I would think. Couple that with the stats from the years since it was dropped and you would be a brave person to suggest that it should be re-introduced.
CorpoRat:
This story about why spinning was removed is often touted but I haven't seen any evidence; I suspect the real reason is that manufactureres were not certifying aircraft for spinning. If you've got any evidence for your point it would be useful if you could publish it (or a pointer).
These days we teach spin avoidance and the stude learns the theory of full spin recovery - but it's very rare to find someone that can recover the aircraft safely when first shown (after detailed briefing) a spin. After a spin session or two they stand a chance of recovering.
It seems very sad that we're sending people off with a huge gap in their safety knowledge and this fear of something which is a stable "flight" condition for many aircraft.
Training can be perfectly safe BUT the FIs need to be proficient and comfortable, the aircraft need to be suitable, and SOPs need to be sensible.
HFD
This story about why spinning was removed is often touted but I haven't seen any evidence; I suspect the real reason is that manufactureres were not certifying aircraft for spinning. If you've got any evidence for your point it would be useful if you could publish it (or a pointer).
These days we teach spin avoidance and the stude learns the theory of full spin recovery - but it's very rare to find someone that can recover the aircraft safely when first shown (after detailed briefing) a spin. After a spin session or two they stand a chance of recovering.
It seems very sad that we're sending people off with a huge gap in their safety knowledge and this fear of something which is a stable "flight" condition for many aircraft.
Training can be perfectly safe BUT the FIs need to be proficient and comfortable, the aircraft need to be suitable, and SOPs need to be sensible.
HFD
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I spent several years instructing in a civilian flying school environment and now work for the military doing EFT on the Firefly. One thing that doesn't seem to be emphasised in the civilian world is the incipient spin recovery technique. If the aircraft is mishandled and undemanded roll occurs then applying the incipient recovery inputs will prevent a full spin from developing if done quickly and correctly. The key is practice, the inputs have to be instinctive and rapid.
Full spin recovery training I feel to be largely academic in the PPL world for several reasons. Most full departures from controlled flight are going to be either in the turn onto final or on the approach; a weekend pilot of average skill who has allowed this to happen is unlikely to have the nous to immediately carry out the full spin recovery drill for his aircraft, and more to the point will not have enough height left to recover anyway. Spin prevention and recognition of signs of the approaching stall are the key I reckon.
As mentioned, a lot of modern light aircraft have benign spinning characteristics, and will come out into a spiral dive if pro-spin controls are not deliberately held. Some, like the Firefly, have a stable spin and will in fact enter a high-rotational mode if the recovery is mishandled. One of the reasons I wear a parachute at work. These spin factors only become significant during deliberate full or incipient spin training and aerobatics, however.
Finally to the issue of instructors being confident with spinning/unusual attitudes. During my 5 years teaching PPLs, I had students depart the aircraft into incipient spins on 2 occasions through mishandling academic stall recoveries with power and flap, usually after they used aileron to pick up a wing drop. I have also had an inexperienced student panic completely and pull the control column back to the aft stop and lock it there with both arms at 1000' agl. By the time I'd persuaded him to let go we were a fair way into a loop resulting in a rather sporty unusual position recovery. For these reasons alone I think it is essential that instructors are comfortable with recoveries from unusual positions, full and incipient spins. A student will try and kill you one day, it comes with the job!
Full spin recovery training I feel to be largely academic in the PPL world for several reasons. Most full departures from controlled flight are going to be either in the turn onto final or on the approach; a weekend pilot of average skill who has allowed this to happen is unlikely to have the nous to immediately carry out the full spin recovery drill for his aircraft, and more to the point will not have enough height left to recover anyway. Spin prevention and recognition of signs of the approaching stall are the key I reckon.
As mentioned, a lot of modern light aircraft have benign spinning characteristics, and will come out into a spiral dive if pro-spin controls are not deliberately held. Some, like the Firefly, have a stable spin and will in fact enter a high-rotational mode if the recovery is mishandled. One of the reasons I wear a parachute at work. These spin factors only become significant during deliberate full or incipient spin training and aerobatics, however.
Finally to the issue of instructors being confident with spinning/unusual attitudes. During my 5 years teaching PPLs, I had students depart the aircraft into incipient spins on 2 occasions through mishandling academic stall recoveries with power and flap, usually after they used aileron to pick up a wing drop. I have also had an inexperienced student panic completely and pull the control column back to the aft stop and lock it there with both arms at 1000' agl. By the time I'd persuaded him to let go we were a fair way into a loop resulting in a rather sporty unusual position recovery. For these reasons alone I think it is essential that instructors are comfortable with recoveries from unusual positions, full and incipient spins. A student will try and kill you one day, it comes with the job!
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The Tomahawk, although it enters into a classic spin, is probably not the best aircraft to introduce spins to someone on. Where I do FIC courses we have both the C150 Aerobat and the ubiquitous PA38. I usually do the initial FIC spin training on the C150 to acclimatise the student FI before going to the PA38. I also use the 'competition spin' entry instead of the more abrupt 'flick entry': i.e I take the aircraft to the stall and at the pronounced buffet I apply pro-spin rudder and then get the stick fully back. With this method the entry is not as unpleasant as the more dynamic entry prior to the stall. The PA38 also has a very low nose attitude during the spin and more so during the recovery and most people will have never seen an aircraft in such an attitude before and so it is much more off-putting. In addition the rate of roll increases in the PA38 prior to recovery which again unsettles the student due in part to the fuel in the tanks being affected by centrifugal forces in the rolling plane - the so called 'A' gyro. Remarkably aircraft like the Pitts and the Extra are more benign in the spin than the PA38 and the C150, so it may make sense for someone who is anxious about spinning to get some training in one of these first.
However, I do think a persons attitude to spinning rests on how well or badly they were introduced to it, I know I had a bad experience of having one shown to me on my first lesson (‘air experience’ and it was done with power and very dynamically – consequently I was a very reluctant ‘spinner’ until someone came and taught me properly and then I had much more confidence). So now I am very mindful that the first spinning lesson should be taught well and if the student comes back having enjoyed the lesson and looking forward to doing it again, then I have got it right.
However, I do think a persons attitude to spinning rests on how well or badly they were introduced to it, I know I had a bad experience of having one shown to me on my first lesson (‘air experience’ and it was done with power and very dynamically – consequently I was a very reluctant ‘spinner’ until someone came and taught me properly and then I had much more confidence). So now I am very mindful that the first spinning lesson should be taught well and if the student comes back having enjoyed the lesson and looking forward to doing it again, then I have got it right.
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Just out of interest, why did your instructor ask you to look at the back end of a Traumahawk during the spin?
1. If you have seen it, you'll never spin in one again and....
2. Have you ever seen the size of the nuts that hold the tail on? Obviously he hasn't!
I've seen what they do in a spin but if it's designed, tested and certificated to be spun then what's the problem?
I can't remember what the tail attachment looks like but it's unlikely that the nuts do anything other than stop the parts sliding off the shaft of the bolt, so they aren't too relevant. The loads on the bolt will be in shear and a small bolt can take a huge load. You need to trust the designer!
My earlier point was that the stude is unlikely to learn anything useful about spin recoveries by looking at the tail - it's more likely to cause anxiety.
HFD
I can't remember what the tail attachment looks like but it's unlikely that the nuts do anything other than stop the parts sliding off the shaft of the bolt, so they aren't too relevant. The loads on the bolt will be in shear and a small bolt can take a huge load. You need to trust the designer!
My earlier point was that the stude is unlikely to learn anything useful about spin recoveries by looking at the tail - it's more likely to cause anxiety.
HFD
