Can a PPL(A) check out an Instructor?
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Can a PPL(A) check out an Instructor?
I've been asked by a friend to be a safety pilot / checkout pilot in his private aircraft group, the aircraft is a C172.
The aircraft group has about 12 people some of which fly infrequently, but are keen pilots. The group has no access to an instructor and the insurance of the group forbids them to check each other out as it does not allow normal PPL licence holders to sit in the right hand seat unless they are instructors. So when the 90 day rule comes up, the pilot has to fly solo or find an instructor.
As an instructor I have been asked to help out. My problem is that I have not flown this type P1 for over 5 years. I would be perfectly legal to jump straight into the Right Hand Seat, but common sense and good airmanship points to a checkout, at least just to be safe.
So the question is... Can one of the group's PPL holders who is current check me out on this type with him sitting in the Left hand seat and me in the right?
What would I log this flight as?
Would it be correct to log the PPL as P1 and the Instructor (me) as P1/S. The PPL signing the Instructor off as 'current on type'?
Would appreciate advice on this matter.
The aircraft group has about 12 people some of which fly infrequently, but are keen pilots. The group has no access to an instructor and the insurance of the group forbids them to check each other out as it does not allow normal PPL licence holders to sit in the right hand seat unless they are instructors. So when the 90 day rule comes up, the pilot has to fly solo or find an instructor.
As an instructor I have been asked to help out. My problem is that I have not flown this type P1 for over 5 years. I would be perfectly legal to jump straight into the Right Hand Seat, but common sense and good airmanship points to a checkout, at least just to be safe.
So the question is... Can one of the group's PPL holders who is current check me out on this type with him sitting in the Left hand seat and me in the right?
What would I log this flight as?
Would it be correct to log the PPL as P1 and the Instructor (me) as P1/S. The PPL signing the Instructor off as 'current on type'?
Would appreciate advice on this matter.
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According to your post, you can legally fly this aeroplane already. If that's right then you don't need to be "signed off" by the PPL as current on type.
So, since this isn't a legal matter, it's just a good sense matter. You can decide that as well as anyone else. If both you and the PPL holder are legal to fly the plane then either (but not both) of you could be P1 for your flight. If you are P1 and you are legal to instruct in the type then the PPL could log PUT also. Neither of you could log P1s since this wouldn't be a flight test.
From a common sense point of view, the PPL holder who sits with you must be fully competant to recover from anything you might do while you are regaining your familiarity. I shouldn't imagine that most PPL holders would know when to take over controls during landing as an instructor would - so you'd have to be pretty careful here.
You also need to check the group rules and the insurance words to make sure that you are not about to invalidate that by having the wrong one of you as P1.
So, since this isn't a legal matter, it's just a good sense matter. You can decide that as well as anyone else. If both you and the PPL holder are legal to fly the plane then either (but not both) of you could be P1 for your flight. If you are P1 and you are legal to instruct in the type then the PPL could log PUT also. Neither of you could log P1s since this wouldn't be a flight test.
From a common sense point of view, the PPL holder who sits with you must be fully competant to recover from anything you might do while you are regaining your familiarity. I shouldn't imagine that most PPL holders would know when to take over controls during landing as an instructor would - so you'd have to be pretty careful here.
You also need to check the group rules and the insurance words to make sure that you are not about to invalidate that by having the wrong one of you as P1.
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Pondlife,
Thanks for your reply.
Appologies for the miss use of wording "checkout".
Currency is a better word. I used the word "checkout", because the club which I instruct at insists on being "right hand seat checked out" if you go to instruct on a different aircraft type even if it is inside the same SEP classification. This makes sense in terms of safety. This type of familiarisation exercise I believe can be done with a confident PPL sitting in the left hand seat.
If I didn't re-familierise myself in a 172 and go straight into the right hand seat for the first time. If I got caught in a difficult situation crashed the aircraft, I may be legal but would be heavily criticised by the CAA investigators.
Nevertheless this case is particularly confusing. Further details:
The colleague who is in this group wants a safety pilot to fly with him as he has passed his 90 day period and is not so confident about going up solo to do his three take off and landings. He is still within the two year currency.
The insurance of his flying group does not allow any other PPL to sit in the right hand seat unless they are an instructor. There are no instructors in the group. So an instructor will be required, or he will have to take a risk and go solo himself.
The 90 day rule is clear in that you cannot carry passengers. So as an instructor can I go airborne sitting in the right hand seat with my colleague as P1? In effect I would only be a 'virtual passenger', not there in terms of his P1 90 day rule, but there in terms of my licence rating and if the situation arrises if he should get into difficulty.
Does this situation not work the same way as a bi-annual checkout of a pilot in his own plane? Could I be P1 with my colleague as P1/S (or would it be logged as PUT?).
Surely the best description of this scenario is my colleague is Pilot in command under supervision, with me in the right hand seat as Pilot in command. i.e. colleage as P1/S and me as P1 taking control only in emergency.
Pleae advise...
Thanks for your reply.
Appologies for the miss use of wording "checkout".
Currency is a better word. I used the word "checkout", because the club which I instruct at insists on being "right hand seat checked out" if you go to instruct on a different aircraft type even if it is inside the same SEP classification. This makes sense in terms of safety. This type of familiarisation exercise I believe can be done with a confident PPL sitting in the left hand seat.
If I didn't re-familierise myself in a 172 and go straight into the right hand seat for the first time. If I got caught in a difficult situation crashed the aircraft, I may be legal but would be heavily criticised by the CAA investigators.
Nevertheless this case is particularly confusing. Further details:
The colleague who is in this group wants a safety pilot to fly with him as he has passed his 90 day period and is not so confident about going up solo to do his three take off and landings. He is still within the two year currency.
The insurance of his flying group does not allow any other PPL to sit in the right hand seat unless they are an instructor. There are no instructors in the group. So an instructor will be required, or he will have to take a risk and go solo himself.
The 90 day rule is clear in that you cannot carry passengers. So as an instructor can I go airborne sitting in the right hand seat with my colleague as P1? In effect I would only be a 'virtual passenger', not there in terms of his P1 90 day rule, but there in terms of my licence rating and if the situation arrises if he should get into difficulty.
Does this situation not work the same way as a bi-annual checkout of a pilot in his own plane? Could I be P1 with my colleague as P1/S (or would it be logged as PUT?).
Surely the best description of this scenario is my colleague is Pilot in command under supervision, with me in the right hand seat as Pilot in command. i.e. colleage as P1/S and me as P1 taking control only in emergency.
Pleae advise...
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What you call it is symantics. If you are an instructor you can legally be the second crew member in a single pilot aeroplane. If you are not a crew member, the ANO says you are a passenger and therefore cannot sit in on 90 day currency flights. Quite simple really.
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If you are flying with someone who has not met the 90 day currency requirements then you must be flying in your capacity as flying instructor and, therefore, operating as captain (P1). The other guy must be PUT if he is to be able to count the flight for the 90 day currency,and must be the handling pilot for take off and landing. He cannot be P1s in this circumstance, although I do know that lots of people would incorrectly log this circumstance as P1s. Just the same, the bi-annual instructional flight for the SEP revalidation should also, strictly, be logged as PUT by the "student". It doesn't have so much to do with who's touching the controls - most of the instructional flights I give are done by the student under my supervision, but I can never let the student log P1s because I'm not an examiner and so none of them are flight tests.
I can't comment on your club's (sensible) rule about instructor checkouts on type - that, presumably, is for your club CFI to interpret. Wether or not this flight would be anything to do with the club at which you normally instruct is for you to interpret.
I also can't comment on wether it would be sensible for you to re-familiarise with flying the type from the right seat with a guy in the left who's not confident to fly it solo - sounds unlikely though.
I can't comment on your club's (sensible) rule about instructor checkouts on type - that, presumably, is for your club CFI to interpret. Wether or not this flight would be anything to do with the club at which you normally instruct is for you to interpret.
I also can't comment on wether it would be sensible for you to re-familiarise with flying the type from the right seat with a guy in the left who's not confident to fly it solo - sounds unlikely though.
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Try this as a way of avoiding the issue....
Why not go to your nearest training organisation that operates C172's.
Fly from r.h seat with another instructor in l.h seat.
Argue between the two of you who logs P1, & who gets PuT. P1/s doesn't come into it.
Why not go to your nearest training organisation that operates C172's.
Fly from r.h seat with another instructor in l.h seat.
Argue between the two of you who logs P1, & who gets PuT. P1/s doesn't come into it.
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Personally I would fly with a competent group member first if I was not happy flying the aircraft myself without a checkout, who logs what is purely a technical matter as legally neither of you needs another in the aircraft, then you can sit in the aircraft with the group member who needs the checkout with a clear concience and no worries about the insurance side - you need to differentiate between what is needed legally (nothing in this case) and what YOU feel happy with.
