Legally required paperwork......
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Bristol
Legally required paperwork......
This is for all you despatchers out there. The other day pilot x from airline y decided that the DOW and DOI figures were incorrect on the loadsheet that I'd produced for his flight. I was told by the despatcher that the pilot had asked for this to be changed for the next flight but that he would accept the loadsheet. What I wasn't told was that he didn't sign the loadsheet before taking off and had requested that I produce another amended loadsheet for this flight for him to sign when he came back through my airport on his return flight!!! In view of the fact that it's a legal requirement for handling agents to have a signed copy of the loadsheet for every flight, I'm curious to know what would YOU have done in this situation??
:o
:o
CUPID STUNT
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: UK
He is required by law 2 have a load sheet signed by both the Dispatcher and the Captain and was breaking the law departing with out one.
I hope you reported this incident! imagine what would of happend if a problem would of happend with the aircraft and the governing bodies had requested the loadsheet for inspection? what would you have done then?
Why did the despatcher not radio or call you and request a new loadsheet with the correct figures on? it would have only taken 5 mins 2 knock a new one out!
I hope you reported this incident! imagine what would of happend if a problem would of happend with the aircraft and the governing bodies had requested the loadsheet for inspection? what would you have done then?
Why did the despatcher not radio or call you and request a new loadsheet with the correct figures on? it would have only taken 5 mins 2 knock a new one out!
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: around
Why did the despatcher not radio or call you and request a new loadsheet with the correct figures on?
I would advise that you check the DOW/DOI yourself in y airlines loading manual once you know the crew config and before producing the loadsheet, just as an extra safeguard.
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: UK
That is a violation to our operations procedure, if it happen to us he will never get anywhere near the runway. Our load control department use ACARS uplink loadsheet and downlink for acceptance, without it we will be requested to confirm with the crew by company radio before they can block out. The worst come to worst we can call the tower to bring him back if that's what we got to do. What happen if they have an accident, everything count....
Joined: Nov 1999
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From: East Midlands
Aside from the fact we all know about pilots and manual loadsheets!
Could he not of completed a manual loadsheet after push. When my boys n girls do manuals, it is often because they have no
nominated handling agent.
'He is required by law 2 have a load sheet signed by both the Dispatcher and the Captain and was breaking the law departing with out one'?Is it two signatures, prepared by and checked by? I thought it was that the departure point had to have a copy of said loadsheet, techlog page etc.
That can be engineering, catering or the fbu. If it lands at the other end, no problem.
I will bow to the greater knowledge of proper Dispatchers, as it's been years.
stand 22
'I would advise that you check the DOW/DOI yourself in y airlines loading manual once you know the crew config and before producing the loadsheet, just as an extra safeguard.'
Good advice, but remember, we have a horrible habbit of removing bent airstairs for a fix. Both DOW and BI change. You know deep down we never tell you
Bored
Could he not of completed a manual loadsheet after push. When my boys n girls do manuals, it is often because they have no
nominated handling agent.
'He is required by law 2 have a load sheet signed by both the Dispatcher and the Captain and was breaking the law departing with out one'?Is it two signatures, prepared by and checked by? I thought it was that the departure point had to have a copy of said loadsheet, techlog page etc.
That can be engineering, catering or the fbu. If it lands at the other end, no problem.
I will bow to the greater knowledge of proper Dispatchers, as it's been years.
stand 22
'I would advise that you check the DOW/DOI yourself in y airlines loading manual once you know the crew config and before producing the loadsheet, just as an extra safeguard.'
Good advice, but remember, we have a horrible habbit of removing bent airstairs for a fix. Both DOW and BI change. You know deep down we never tell you
Bored
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: UK
Dispatchers and Handling agents do not have the authority to prevent a flight departing without the correct documentation. If the capt says he is going - then he is going, full stop.
However, the dispatcher can report the incident to his seniors and/or airlines ops/station manager.
Also, in my experience when a capt claims the DOW/DOI is incorrect, it is normally because the capt hasn't received his company's latest sheet of weights.
Finally, it is the policy of one low cost airlline to file an ASR when an incorrect loadsheet is presented to the capt.
However, the dispatcher can report the incident to his seniors and/or airlines ops/station manager.
Also, in my experience when a capt claims the DOW/DOI is incorrect, it is normally because the capt hasn't received his company's latest sheet of weights.
Finally, it is the policy of one low cost airlline to file an ASR when an incorrect loadsheet is presented to the capt.
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From: around
If the capt says he is going - then he is going, full stop
Thread Starter
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From: Bristol
Well I'm glad that I'm not the only Ops. person who thought that this incident was totally wrong and somewhat dangerous! OpsFlyer53 - despatchers maybe don't have the authority BY LAW to prevent a pilot from leaving if he wants to, BUT how to you react to Stand 22's comment about not removing the airbridge if one was attached? In this situation what choice would the pilot have? Had I been the despatcher on the flight that is the subject of this thread, I would have done my best NOT to allow the flight to depart regardless of what the pilot's opinion was, so I'm in total agreement with Stand 22 on that point. If the DOW and DOI figures are incorrect on a loadsheet, surely this could lead to a weight/balance and trim problem when the aircraft was in flight? The pilot may well wish to depart as OpsFlyer suggests, but how guilty would you feel if something were to go wrong and you, as the despatcher, had allowed the flight to leave without a signed loadsheet? 
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: London
I have to agree with Stand22. I wouldnt take the airbridge off until I had a signed loadsheet. Why didnt the dispatcher look at the inbound loadsheet? Surely it would have taken more than a few minutes to run up to the gate and do a new one.
Joined: Nov 1999
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From: East Midlands
Airbridge
So as the crew go out of hours, and nip off to a hotel for min rest....The Bridge stays there, no matter what?
My pure guess, is the bridge withdrawn, tug n towbar soon found, and the remote stand becomes, 'what stand'
Next time, guess what, Pitot tube hit by Airbridge, funny as hell!
See para 2
Bored
My pure guess, is the bridge withdrawn, tug n towbar soon found, and the remote stand becomes, 'what stand'
Next time, guess what, Pitot tube hit by Airbridge, funny as hell!
See para 2
Bored
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: southampton
DUBIOUS
Not sure i would have actally left the cockpit in the first place whithout a valid signature. either that or i would have taken both copies of the loadsheet and left him with no figures while i went back to the gate to change it. As far as i'm concerned while that a/c is at the gate i have as much power over what happens on it as any stuck up four striper. don't be pushed around at the end of the day as long as your arse is covered who cares about him.
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From: EGPH
He is required by law 2 have a load sheet signed by both the Dispatcher and the Captain and was breaking the law departing with out one.
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: UK
despatchers maybe don't have the authority BY LAW to prevent a pilot from leaving if he wants to, BUT how to you react to Stand 22's comment about not removing the airbridge if one was attached? In this situation what choice would the pilot have?
Issues like these will always crop up, especially if you work for a handling agent and not an airline - the Handling Agent is often "piggy in the middle."
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: UK
Of course Dispatchers have the powerto hold an aircraft.
As already said, legally an aircraft needs two signatures on the loadsheet to depart - the dispatchers and the captains - if eithr or neither is happy, do not sign, so the aircraft does not go.
I would suggest at this point go back for the ops manual and latest weight / blance data on that particular aircraft, and then also get a telex from the home station for that airline to depart on any different weights.
Always cover your arse.
As already said, legally an aircraft needs two signatures on the loadsheet to depart - the dispatchers and the captains - if eithr or neither is happy, do not sign, so the aircraft does not go.
I would suggest at this point go back for the ops manual and latest weight / blance data on that particular aircraft, and then also get a telex from the home station for that airline to depart on any different weights.
Always cover your arse.
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Warrington UK
A loadsheet needs to be signed by both the despatcher and the captain when the captain did not produce the loadsheet. That is law. Full stop. If he is insistent upon going, It would be interesting to watch as a towbar, tug and airbridge is still attatched to the airplane and I have taken the groundstaff away from the aircraft until the matter is resolved
When I was in the USAF, we had a little saying....
Dont ever allow his RANK to outweigh your AUTHORITY!
When we as despatchers (ramp agents, paper boys, Phillipino Rent Boys or whatever "El-Capitan" wants to call us) sign a loadsheet and DOT form, we are putting ourselves legally at risk if anything goes wrong with that flight. The captain is not the only person that has responsibility for the safety of that aircraft. We as despatchers DO have a vested interest in the outcome of that flight and dont EVER let a captain tell you otherwise!
When I was in the USAF, we had a little saying....
Dont ever allow his RANK to outweigh your AUTHORITY!
When we as despatchers (ramp agents, paper boys, Phillipino Rent Boys or whatever "El-Capitan" wants to call us) sign a loadsheet and DOT form, we are putting ourselves legally at risk if anything goes wrong with that flight. The captain is not the only person that has responsibility for the safety of that aircraft. We as despatchers DO have a vested interest in the outcome of that flight and dont EVER let a captain tell you otherwise!
Last edited by CainanUK; 1st March 2003 at 10:13.
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: UK
The Captain cannot legally depart without a loadsheet so if you take both copies he's not going anywhere. I agree with everyone who has said that they would not let the Capt depart until the difference of opinion had been correctly sorted to everyone's satisfaction.
If the worst happened and the aircraft crashed and the flight deck were killed there would only one person in the dock defending the paperwork and that's the despatcher. Until a/c is able to move under its own power the ground staff have as much responsibilty for its safety as any Captain.
If the worst happened and the aircraft crashed and the flight deck were killed there would only one person in the dock defending the paperwork and that's the despatcher. Until a/c is able to move under its own power the ground staff have as much responsibilty for its safety as any Captain.
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: THE north
I agree that the aircraft should not have gone until the situation was resolved.
Was the DOI / DOI wrong in the first place?
How big was the error as if within limits an LMC adj could have been made.
The gate dispatcher showed inexperience by letting the aircraft go without calling on supervision / Duty Manager to attend.
Was it one of these airlines with their own PSR and if so, could they not have assisted as they do know everything!!!!!!!!!!
Simple way to reslove. Inform your manager and get it reported to the airline formally. Just imagine if it was the other way round. Do you think the driver would have gone on the Pprune to ask advise.. no way, flight report filled and your head on the chopping block.
All dispatch staff, remember after a bad flight, never let the bu**ers get you down.
Was the DOI / DOI wrong in the first place?
How big was the error as if within limits an LMC adj could have been made.
The gate dispatcher showed inexperience by letting the aircraft go without calling on supervision / Duty Manager to attend.
Was it one of these airlines with their own PSR and if so, could they not have assisted as they do know everything!!!!!!!!!!
Simple way to reslove. Inform your manager and get it reported to the airline formally. Just imagine if it was the other way round. Do you think the driver would have gone on the Pprune to ask advise.. no way, flight report filled and your head on the chopping block.
All dispatch staff, remember after a bad flight, never let the bu**ers get you down.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Bristol
Well it's good to know that some people out there agree with me on this one - thanks for responding! And now comes the crux! Recently a pilot with the same airline decided that the DCS loadsheet that had been produced (with the aircraft in trim, bags loaded in position x) wasn't to his liking, so he told the baggage handlers to load the bags in position y. Disregarding anything else, the a/c was out of trim with the bags loaded "y" which the pilot chose to ignore, and then, believe it or not, he proceeded to take off having signed the incorrect loadsheet! I know that this throws up all sorts of issues with despatch, baggage loaders and load plans and suchlike (which have already been discussed here), BUT which authorty should be dealing with this? The handling agent? The Airline management? Or someone higher up? Sadly I wasn't in a position to prevent the a/c departing (I would have done) and I feel strongly about the issue. What do you think?
Bugs Bunny: I never et the bu**ers get me down. I just grab a coffee and laugh at them after they've gone!
Bugs Bunny: I never et the bu**ers get me down. I just grab a coffee and laugh at them after they've gone!
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From: Vancouver, BC.
redfield
As suggested above, report these events to you station manager who should take the matter up with the airline's ops manager directly. It is important that you do so. At some point in the future these errors may be picked up in your usual QA audits so it is important that if an error has been made it is reported now and not found later.
Further, can I suggest you read the CAA Safety Reg Group FODCOM (see their website) regarding loading errors, in particular 06/2002 which highlight responsibilites and the reconciliation of loading.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FOD200206.pdf
As suggested above, report these events to you station manager who should take the matter up with the airline's ops manager directly. It is important that you do so. At some point in the future these errors may be picked up in your usual QA audits so it is important that if an error has been made it is reported now and not found later.
Further, can I suggest you read the CAA Safety Reg Group FODCOM (see their website) regarding loading errors, in particular 06/2002 which highlight responsibilites and the reconciliation of loading.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FOD200206.pdf
